Author Topic: Race in America thread  (Read 4480 times)

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Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #75 on: August 03, 2018, 11:43:22 AM »
Pricing the fertility of women to maximize their future potential profits is definitely economic activity that totally happens. The market for people is not like for like with people’s future earning from the fruits of their labor.

i've googled around a bit for data on fecundity of african american women during and after slavery and haven't been able to find anything.  if your assertion that they were more fecund during slavery is accurate, then you've finally introduced one factor that would argue for a higher rate of gdp increase in the slave economy than the postwar economy.

i can think of another, btw.  but i'm not going to make your argument for you.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #76 on: August 03, 2018, 11:43:56 AM »
well I went looking for your answer and the first paper I found reinforces both of my points.

http://web.utk.edu/~mwanamak/Slavespaper.pdf

Quote
"Emancipation brought a reduction in the efficiency of former slave labor both because the efficiency of larger farms and plantations was replaced by small plot farming and sharecropping and because the labor available for hire in the postwar labor market was negatively selected in terms of efficiency. As a result, the productivity of Southern labor declined by approximately 30-40 percent between 1860-1880"
pg 5

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"The literature on slave breeding and trade suggests that in locations where slave agriculture was relatively less profitable, slaves were assets not because of their production potential on the household's own farm, but because they could be sold to areas with more productive agricultural systems."
pg 14

the paper does not compare slave vs. emancipated fertility (I don't think, I didn't read it that carefully) but the other points stand.
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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #77 on: August 03, 2018, 11:49:45 AM »
I think this may have something to do with our disconnect.  Before emancipation I'm viewing slaves as capital.  After, they are labor.  So by definition, post-slavery you end up with a massive labor force that didn't exist before.

well that's the wrong way to think of them.  they were people that were having their labor stolen from them.  they existed.

We're talking about economies.  Lots of fictions in play.  Emancipation fundamentally shifted their impact on the economy.

Offline wetwillie

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #78 on: August 03, 2018, 11:57:20 AM »
What the eff happened in here, this thread has become unreadable.
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Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #79 on: August 03, 2018, 12:06:22 PM »
Quote
the efficiency of larger farms and plantations was replaced by small plot farming and sharecropping

heh.  this was the argument i didn't want to make for you.  good link, btw.

re. the productivity of labor - that's a measure output/laborer in one sector (admittedly a large sector).  it doesn't imply that total production declined (although it may have).  at least now we're actually talking about the factors that influence gdp instead of the ridiculous idea that liberating people destroyed capital.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #80 on: August 03, 2018, 12:11:27 PM »
Quote
the efficiency of larger farms and plantations was replaced by small plot farming and sharecropping

heh.  this was the argument i didn't want to make for you.  good link, btw.

re. the productivity of labor - that's a measure output/laborer in one sector (admittedly a large sector).  it doesn't imply that total production declined (although it may have).  at least now we're actually talking about the factors that influence gdp instead of the ridiculous idea that liberating people destroyed capital.

right, but GDP still doesn't capture all of the assets we've been talking about.
@bentren

Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #81 on: August 03, 2018, 12:16:20 PM »
not sure what you mean by that, but my whole point, or at least one of my two whole points, was that the valuation of assets does not effect their productivity.  that's the whole thing i brought up in my first post about how it actually has created a sustainable economic advantage for germany that their capital stock has been valued less than equivalent stock in peer countries.
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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #82 on: August 03, 2018, 12:18:52 PM »
Is Sys saying that freeing the slaves didn't hurt the South's economy?

correct.

This is the only point I took issue with.  But it seems like you've come around.

Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #83 on: August 03, 2018, 12:34:09 PM »
Is Sys saying that freeing the slaves didn't hurt the South's economy?

correct.

This is the only point I took issue with.  But it seems like you've come around.

i most definitely have not come around.

there were a ton of events that occurred during and immediately after the civil war that were temporally and spatially correlated.  some likely had negative impacts on gdp, some likely had positive impacts.  until i see data, i'm not going to be convinced one way or the other of the sum effect.  and i assume, and will continue to so assume unless and until confronted with contrary data, that freeing enslaved people would be one of the events with a positive impact, because that accords with theory.
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Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #84 on: August 03, 2018, 12:35:46 PM »
not to distract from the slavery discussion, but this is a good observo.

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we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #85 on: August 03, 2018, 12:43:26 PM »

there were a ton of events that occurred during and immediately after the civil war that were temporally and spatially correlated.  some likely had negative impacts on gdp, some likely had positive impacts.  until i see data, i'm not going to be convinced one way or the other of the sum effect.  and i assume, and will continue to so assume unless and until confronted with contrary data, that freeing enslaved people would be one of the events with a positive impact, because that accords with theory.

Well I stand corrected, but admitting you cannot be convinced provides me the same level of closure I suppose.

Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #86 on: August 03, 2018, 01:04:59 PM »
yeah, i mean, if you or katkid could make a cogent argument, maybe.  but you both seem to be fixated by the losses suffered by the slaveholders.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #87 on: August 03, 2018, 01:11:49 PM »
not to distract from the slavery discussion, but this is a good observo.

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That's something I've observed as well. Watched a doc on the Charlottesville marcher dudes and all of them denied being racist despite wanting the US to be a white only ethnostate. They would get really uncomfortable when the interviewer would use racist language. It was so odd.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #88 on: August 03, 2018, 01:31:25 PM »
yeah, i mean, if you or katkid could make a cogent argument, maybe.  but you both seem to be fixated by the losses suffered by the slaveholders.

Well I'm not going to provide you with a line-by-line breakdown of the economic impacts of each discrete aspect of post-war reconstruction, so we appear to be at an impasse.

Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #89 on: August 03, 2018, 01:33:24 PM »
i do not agree to let you disagree, if that's what you're fishing for.
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Offline Spracne

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #90 on: August 03, 2018, 02:34:29 PM »
Agree with wetwillie on the unfortunate turn in this thread. A few otherwise good posters are stuck in a semantic quagmire. If you insist on continuing this discussion, you'll need to precisely define the terms you're throwing around. Otherwise, you'll just continue to talk past one another.

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #91 on: August 03, 2018, 03:10:29 PM »
not to distract from the slavery discussion, but this is a good observo.

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Yes, definitely

Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #92 on: August 03, 2018, 03:40:12 PM »
Agree with wetwillie on the unfortunate turn in this thread. A few otherwise good posters are stuck in a semantic quagmire. If you insist on continuing this discussion, you'll need to precisely define the terms you're throwing around. Otherwise, you'll just continue to talk past one another.

without judgement regarding how entertaining you've found today's discussion, it really hasn't been a discussion of semantics at all.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #93 on: August 03, 2018, 03:57:43 PM »
 :buh-bye:

Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #94 on: August 04, 2018, 11:56:00 PM »
this doesn't directly address our discussion, but it's clearly written, well sourced and related to the topic.

Quote
Slavery was a national tragedy that immiserated countless individuals, inhibited economic growth over the long run, and created social and racial divisions that still haunt the nation.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014498317302292#
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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #95 on: August 05, 2018, 10:00:11 AM »
The entire a slave was an asset then it wasn't, combatted with labor is an asset, was about like two sea lions fight over space on an 800 sq/ft dock.
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Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #96 on: August 07, 2018, 08:59:50 PM »
interesting.

we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline Dlew12

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #97 on: August 08, 2018, 03:40:44 PM »
interesting.

Did you read the paper?


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Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #98 on: August 08, 2018, 03:46:32 PM »
Did you read the paper?

no, just the thread and abstract.
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Offline Dlew12

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #99 on: August 08, 2018, 03:48:40 PM »
i have to get better at remembering to read threads...


I'd really like to see what the statements were for each category.


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