The Thread for Democratic Socialists/AOC watch with 24/7 AOC updates

[Rage Against the McKee]

One thing I find absolutely astonishing is that the (extremely radical) green new deal (proposed by AOC) would only start to negatively impact (and by that I mean they would have to pay a higher percentage of their income as tax) people who make over TEN MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.

i think a lot of people would say that not having a realistic mechanism to pay for the proposed measures is a flaw, not a selling point.

The payment mechanism is government bonds. It would be refreshing to have someone actually propose the amount of bonds required and projected GDP growth to cover repayment, but it's probably politically expedient to simply pretend that taxes on a small percentage of the income of an even smaller percentage of the population will completely cover the cost.

[MakeItRain]

There are so many Americans and more importantly American families that have an income well below $60,000.

yes, it's true that most american households do not have an income greater than $60k per person, and thus are not wealthier than 99% of all other humans on earth.

I still want us to be better at taking care of people as comfortable as me.

there's nothing wrong with wanting american goverance to be better, but if your opening move is to inaccurately describe how well we live in this country then i, at least, will have a hard time believing that any subsequent analysis isn't similarly mistaken or dishonest.

That post was long, let me be more succinct and clear.

Who the eff cares that Americans make more money than people in other countries? To me, it's embarrassing that families in this country who earn $47,000 have a lower standard of living than a family who makes half of that in some places in Europe.

[Justwin]

Charity > taxation
Contentment > desire

Taxation takes from the poor and gives to the rich.

Taxation mostly pays for the military, infrastructure, social security, and children.

Not sure what you are including in the children portion, but at the federal level, there is very little spending on children. The federal budget is generally spent on Social Security, defense, interest, Medicare and Medicaid. Some of the Medicaid spending is spent on children, but a fair bit of Medicaid spending is on nursing home care.

Not all of your taxation is at the federal level. And the feds pay for school lunches, pell grants, student loans, etc.

Pell grants and student loans do not go to children.

If you include state taxation, then a decent portion does go to children. You still need to include Medicare and Medicaid on your list of things taxation mostly pays for.

Eh, they are children to me. And I lump Medicare/Medicaid with social security.

So you just make stuff up.

[sys]

To me, it's embarrassing that families in this country who earn $47,000 have a lower standard of living than a family who makes half of that in some places in Europe.

well, that's not true, so you can relax and enjoy your comfortable american standard of living.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Charity > taxation
Contentment > desire

Taxation takes from the poor and gives to the rich.

Taxation mostly pays for the military, infrastructure, social security, and children.

Not sure what you are including in the children portion, but at the federal level, there is very little spending on children. The federal budget is generally spent on Social Security, defense, interest, Medicare and Medicaid. Some of the Medicaid spending is spent on children, but a fair bit of Medicaid spending is on nursing home care.

Not all of your taxation is at the federal level. And the feds pay for school lunches, pell grants, student loans, etc.

Pell grants and student loans do not go to children.

If you include state taxation, then a decent portion does go to children. You still need to include Medicare and Medicaid on your list of things taxation mostly pays for.

Eh, they are children to me. And I lump Medicare/Medicaid with social security.

So you just make stuff up.

I don't see how lumping money to college kids with money for primary ed kids is making stuff up. And I think Medicare/Medicaid/SS all comes from FICA or other payroll taxes. Not 100% sure about Medicaid there. It's all a social safety net, regardless.

[Justwin]

I don't see how lumping money to college kids with money for primary ed kids is making stuff up. And I think Medicare/Medicaid/SS all comes from FICA or other payroll taxes. Not 100% sure about Medicaid there. It's all a social safety net, regardless.

Money to people in college is money going to adults. Money for K-12 is money for minors (children).

No money from FICA taxes go to Medicaid. Social Security is 100% funded through its 6.2% component of FICA taxes (6.2% for employee and another 6.2% for employer).

There is a 1.45% component of FICA taxes that funds Medicare Part A (again 1.45% each from employee and employer). Medicare Part A is a small part of total Medicare spending. Medicare Part B and Medicare Part D each have about 75% of their funding coming from the general fund. The other 25% is from the premiums Medicare participants pay.

Do you consider Section 8 housing, SNAP benefits, EITC, etc. all to be Social Security as well?

[Rage Against the McKee]

Do you consider Section 8 housing, SNAP benefits, EITC, etc. all to be Social Security as well?

yes

[MakeItRain]

To me, it's embarrassing that families in this country who earn $47,000 have a lower standard of living than a family who makes half of that in some places in Europe.

well, that's not true, so you can relax and enjoy your comfortable american standard of living.

well it is, actually. 35 European countries have a lower cost of living, 20 european countries possess a cost of living 1/2 of that of the united states, and of course most of those countries have centralized health care and other robust socalized government programs for it's citizens.

[Kid In the Hall]

Fun fact for all the tax nerds - the highest federal tax rate in U.S. history was 94% during the WWII era through the early 60s (there were also nearly 25! different tax brackets). This rate applied to people making $200,000+ per year - the equivalent of about $2 million in today's dollars. Also, the peak of the U.S. corporate tax rate was 53% in the late 1960s.

Pre-pandemic numbers have U.S. tax revenue around 25% of GDP - the average for non-poor countries is about 35%.

Moral of the story - any non-poor people complaining about taxes (especially rich people) are dumb.

Complain about how those $$$ are spent all you want, but the tax rates themselves are low - both from a U.S. historical standpoint and compared to the majority of our peer nations.

[kim carnes]

To me, it's embarrassing that families in this country who earn $47,000 have a lower standard of living than a family who makes half of that in some places in Europe.

well, that's not true, so you can relax and enjoy your comfortable american standard of living.

well it is, actually. 35 European countries have a lower cost of living, 20 european countries possess a cost of living 1/2 of that of the united states, and of course most of those countries have centralized health care and other robust socalized government programs for it's citizens.

What’s your point walter?

[sys]

To me, it's embarrassing that families in this country who earn $47,000 have a lower standard of living than a family who makes half of that in some places in Europe.

well, that's not true, so you can relax and enjoy your comfortable american standard of living.

well it is, actually. 35 European countries have a lower cost of living, 20 european countries possess a cost of living 1/2 of that of the united states, and of course most of those countries have centralized health care and other robust socalized government programs for it's citizens.

you can use the tool in the tweet i posted to see how those income levels are affected by each country's relative purchasing power.  for example:

family of 3, 47K usd in the us = richer than 91.4% of the world's population
family of 3, 21.7K euro in france = richer than 83.7% of the world's population
family of 3, 21.7K euro in greece = richer than 88.3% of the world's population

and a family of three in the united states with a household income of 47K is eligible for obamacare subsidies that pay for most of their health insurance costs.

[star seed 7]

Sys, I very often think how lucky I am to have been born in this country, along with a few other very obvious privileges.

[michigancat]

I am both very privileged to live in the United States and make a lot of money but also want universal health care. We could probably provide universal housing also but first things first.

[wetwillie]

The universal healthcare seems like an absolute no brainer, how is that not a thing here yet?

[sys]

The universal healthcare seems like an absolute no brainer, how is that not a thing here yet?

history, inertia and not enough doctors.

[kim carnes]

I am both very privileged to live in the United States and make a lot of money but also want universal health care. We could probably provide universal housing also but first things first.

I think I saw your interview on vice once lmao

[sonofdaxjones]

Yeah, Dax. You wouldn't expect major corporations to do anything but pay as little in taxes as they possibly can. So when you see a political party very openly giving them an avenue for writing off billions more in taxes, what else are we supposed to take away from that?

Thanks as always captain obvious.

Now accept the reality that #blueanon’s preferred taxation/regulatory state favors #blueanon favored megacorps.

Not to mention your initial anecdote that’s not grounded in reality.

[michigancat]

I am both very privileged to live in the United States and make a lot of money but also want universal health care. We could probably provide universal housing also but first things first.

I think I saw your interview on vice once lmao

Lol

[Justwin]

Do you consider Section 8 housing, SNAP benefits, EITC, etc. all to be Social Security as well?

yes

Fair enough, but the nature of those programs in the way they are funded and how eligibility is determined is fundamentally different than Social Security. You get more Social Security the more you earn. You generally get more from those other programs the less you earn.

I know you have to pay more into Social Security the more you earn (up to the limit), but it is much more set up as a mandatory pension than it is a safety net.

[star seed 7]

I am both very privileged to live in the United States and make a lot of money but also want universal health care. We could probably provide universal housing also but first things first.

I think I saw your interview on vice once lmao

Lol

This was pretty good lol

[Justwin]

I am both very privileged to live in the United States and make a lot of money but also want universal health care. We could probably provide universal housing also but first things first.

I could go along with universal health care if it is set up similar to Singapore's system. If it is set up as Medicare For All, no way.

Once you start getting into universal housing, you might as well just have a universal basic income and be done with all of the other programs.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Do you consider Section 8 housing, SNAP benefits, EITC, etc. all to be Social Security as well?

yes

Fair enough, but the nature of those programs in the way they are funded and how eligibility is determined is fundamentally different than Social Security. You get more Social Security the more you earn. You generally get more from those other programs the less you earn.

I know you have to pay more into Social Security the more you earn (up to the limit), but it is much more set up as a mandatory pension than it is a safety net.

Yeah, I get that, but I view social security as a system set up to do the bare minimum to keep elderly people from going homeless. It can be part of a retirement plan, but it's woefully insufficient to be considered a pension or retirement plan by itself, imo. I consider it a safety net like the other programs.

[sys]

it takes a vat.

https://twitter.com/billpulec/status/1629127991837052930

[BIG APPLE CAT]

it takes a vat.

https://twitter.com/billpulec/status/1629127991837052930

Ok but in all of those countries can’t you just like…go see a doctor and receive treatment for the cost of a cup of coffee?

[michigancat]

What are non-contributory taxes?