Author Topic: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats  (Read 167926 times)

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Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7025 on: March 26, 2020, 09:14:59 PM »
there is a subset of sanders supporters that is as incapable of perceiving and accepting reality as are the hardcore maga.

we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline michigancat

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7026 on: March 26, 2020, 10:15:13 PM »
why in the world would biden feel it necessary to move to the left merely because sanders refuses to suspend his campaign?

Who in the world suggested that? Moving left is the only way that Biden will attract Sanders supporters. Rusty suggested that the best way to do that is for Bernie to quit and the party to coalesce. That didn't happen four years ago and it sure won't happen now. The best way to get those supporters is for Bernie to stay in and drag Joe's ass left.

I do think that health care and our current situation leaves establishment a bit exposed.  Whether it would have made any difference or not with this crisis, progressives can and should shine a light on the failures of this current health care system.
FWIW I don't think Bernie dropping out is about bringing in Sanders voters, it's more about showing the party establishment that progressives aren't out to destroy the party and sets progressives up for more long term influence and success from within the party.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7027 on: March 26, 2020, 11:53:26 PM »
why in the world would biden feel it necessary to move to the left merely because sanders refuses to suspend his campaign?

Who in the world suggested that? Moving left is the only way that Biden will attract Sanders supporters. Rusty suggested that the best way to do that is for Bernie to quit and the party to coalesce. That didn't happen four years ago and it sure won't happen now. The best way to get those supporters is for Bernie to stay in and drag Joe's ass left.

I do think that health care and our current situation leaves establishment a bit exposed.  Whether it would have made any difference or not with this crisis, progressives can and should shine a light on the failures of this current health care system.
FWIW I don't think Bernie dropping out is about bringing in Sanders voters, it's more about showing the party establishment that progressives aren't out to destroy the party and sets progressives up for more long term influence and success from within the party.

I agree with this but the establishment isn't behaving that way, they are acting like Bernie is an insurgent who wants to destroy the party. Frankly they are treating the progressives in the house the same way. Just like in '16, when Biden gets his ass kicked, there will be a healthy amount of establishment dems that will blame Bernie instead of their shitty candidate.

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7028 on: March 26, 2020, 11:56:15 PM »
they are acting like Bernie is an insurgent who wants to destroy the party.

we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline michigancat

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7029 on: March 26, 2020, 11:58:31 PM »
why in the world would biden feel it necessary to move to the left merely because sanders refuses to suspend his campaign?

Who in the world suggested that? Moving left is the only way that Biden will attract Sanders supporters. Rusty suggested that the best way to do that is for Bernie to quit and the party to coalesce. That didn't happen four years ago and it sure won't happen now. The best way to get those supporters is for Bernie to stay in and drag Joe's ass left.

I do think that health care and our current situation leaves establishment a bit exposed.  Whether it would have made any difference or not with this crisis, progressives can and should shine a light on the failures of this current health care system.
FWIW I don't think Bernie dropping out is about bringing in Sanders voters, it's more about showing the party establishment that progressives aren't out to destroy the party and sets progressives up for more long term influence and success from within the party.

I agree with this but the establishment isn't behaving that way, they are acting like Bernie is an insurgent who wants to destroy the party. Frankly they are treating the progressives in the house the same way. Just like in '16, when Biden gets his ass kicked, there will be a healthy amount of establishment dems that will blame Bernie instead of their shitty candidate.

yeah and throwing his weight behind Biden, or at the very least against Trump, would force them to stop acting like he (and his followers) want to destroy the party and will pretty much absolve progressives of blame after Biden loses. I think this would do a better job opening doors for future national-level progressives than keeping this going and hoping Biden dies by June.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7030 on: March 26, 2020, 11:59:15 PM »
they are acting like Bernie is an insurgent who wants to destroy the party.


What do you think that means?

Offline michigancat

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7031 on: March 27, 2020, 12:01:16 AM »
they are acting like Bernie is an insurgent who wants to destroy the party.


yeah this was a really dumb moment for Bernie. He could erase most of the ill will from things like this that by going all in with Biden/against Trump.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7032 on: March 27, 2020, 12:14:24 AM »
they are acting like Bernie is an insurgent who wants to destroy the party.


yeah this was a really dumb moment for Bernie. He could erase most of the ill will from things like this that by going all in with Biden/against Trump.

What are you asking here? They aren't philosophically close. The issue that Bernie holds most important they are miles apart on. Most progressives and his supporters feel like neo-liberalism is a poor alternative to conservatism, some feel even worse about it. Bernie and the progressives have absolutely nothing to gain by simply going in for Biden against trump. Why? That would render everything he's done useless. It isn't like we don't have history of this playing out already, he's not stupid. He moved aside for Hillary and did more events for her than she did for Obama, it got him and the progressives absolutely nothing. The platform didn't move left at the convention, no progressives got house or senate seats in '16, and the establishment democrats still blame him for Hillary losing.

I get the fear of another four years of Trump, that's what this song and dance is all about. Acting as if he has anything to gain by moving aside is dishonest. The Democrats made this bed, it isn't his job to clean it up for them, especially given he's an independent. Quid pro quo.

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7033 on: March 27, 2020, 12:17:18 AM »
What do you think that means?

he's outlining both the democratic establishment (whatever the eff that means) and the republican establishment (same) as his enemies.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7034 on: March 27, 2020, 12:21:36 AM »
What do you think that means?

he's outlining both the democratic establishment (whatever the eff that means) and the republican establishment (same) as his enemies.

You don't know what the democratic establishment means and why he's been at odds with them for 30 years? You should spend some time reading his website.

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7035 on: March 27, 2020, 12:22:57 AM »
i try to avoid infecting my brain with populism.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline nicname

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7036 on: March 27, 2020, 12:25:31 AM »
so is the thing about Biden allegedly finger raping some lady nbd?
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.


Offline michigancat

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7037 on: March 27, 2020, 12:25:56 AM »
they are acting like Bernie is an insurgent who wants to destroy the party.


yeah this was a really dumb moment for Bernie. He could erase most of the ill will from things like this that by going all in with Biden/against Trump.

What are you asking here? They aren't philosophically close. The issue that Bernie holds most important they are miles apart on. Most progressives and his supporters feel like neo-liberalism is a poor alternative to conservatism, some feel even worse about it. Bernie and the progressives have absolutely nothing to gain by simply going in for Biden against trump. Why? That would render everything he's done useless. It isn't like we don't have history of this playing out already, he's not stupid. He moved aside for Hillary and did more events for her than she did for Obama, it got him and the progressives absolutely nothing. The platform didn't move left at the convention, no progressives got house or senate seats in '16, and the establishment democrats still blame him for Hillary losing.

I get the fear of another four years of Trump, that's what this song and dance is all about. Acting as if he has anything to gain by moving aside is dishonest. The Democrats made this bed, it isn't his job to clean it up for them, especially given he's an independent. Quid pro quo.

I honestly don't disagree with anything you're saying (other than I think the party HAS shifted to the left since 2016). But while there isn't much to gain politically in 2020 by dropping out, he can do 2024 and beyond progressive candidates a lot of harm if he's constantly attacking the presumptive nominee during a pandemic and give progressives this outsider/election ruiner label. So even if he gains nothing by dropping out, he at least hopefully makes life easier for the next progressive generation.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7038 on: March 27, 2020, 12:28:17 AM »
so is the thing about Biden allegedly finger raping some lady nbd?

What?

Offline nicname

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7039 on: March 27, 2020, 12:38:44 AM »
so is the thing about Biden allegedly finger raping some lady nbd?

What?

Edit: Reade said that Biden also told her something after the alleged assault that she initially didn’t want to share because “it’s the thing that stays in my head over and over.” But after some pressing from Halper, Reade decided to share:
 
“He took his finger. He just like pointed at me and said you’re nothing to me.”
It’s hard to find any articles on it that aren’t from questionable publications. Katie Halper did the interview with her.

Here’s a video from The Rising (which I like).



Here is the full interview
https://soundcloud.com/katie-halper/joe-bidens-accuser-finally-tells-her-full-story
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 12:51:10 AM by nicname »
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.


Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7040 on: March 27, 2020, 12:39:41 AM »
i try to avoid infecting my brain with populism.

Yeah, you are clearly incentivized by the status quo maintaining its grip on our economy and society, and that's fine. I don't know why you're acting as if the current state of the democratic party and progressivism are anything close to the same thing. Nothings more dishonest than moderates running around acting like progressives because you are acutely aware that the party of the civil rights act is dead, and you know the stigma that lies with that. Y'all have Americans voting against their own interests, wear that as a well paid for badge of honor.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7041 on: March 27, 2020, 12:51:40 AM »
they are acting like Bernie is an insurgent who wants to destroy the party.


yeah this was a really dumb moment for Bernie. He could erase most of the ill will from things like this that by going all in with Biden/against Trump.

What are you asking here? They aren't philosophically close. The issue that Bernie holds most important they are miles apart on. Most progressives and his supporters feel like neo-liberalism is a poor alternative to conservatism, some feel even worse about it. Bernie and the progressives have absolutely nothing to gain by simply going in for Biden against trump. Why? That would render everything he's done useless. It isn't like we don't have history of this playing out already, he's not stupid. He moved aside for Hillary and did more events for her than she did for Obama, it got him and the progressives absolutely nothing. The platform didn't move left at the convention, no progressives got house or senate seats in '16, and the establishment democrats still blame him for Hillary losing.

I get the fear of another four years of Trump, that's what this song and dance is all about. Acting as if he has anything to gain by moving aside is dishonest. The Democrats made this bed, it isn't his job to clean it up for them, especially given he's an independent. Quid pro quo.

I honestly don't disagree with anything you're saying (other than I think the party HAS shifted to the left since 2016). But while there isn't much to gain politically in 2020 by dropping out, he can do 2024 and beyond progressive candidates a lot of harm if he's constantly attacking the presumptive nominee during a pandemic and give progressives this outsider/election ruiner label. So even if he gains nothing by dropping out, he at least hopefully makes life easier for the next progressive generation.

You're probably correct that the party has moved left but that tree hasn't borne any fruit. There are no progressives other than Warren anywhere close to party leadership and Pelosi has been publicly hostile at times. I think it would be easier for Bernie to step aside and progressives to move with the party of the wounds of '16 weren't so fresh. Also what happened with the moderate candidates and their COLUSION against Bernie and Liz the day before Super Tuesday let them know exactly where they sit with the party. The establishment dems say that they need and want the progressives but every action they have taken, since selecting Tom Perez over Keith Ellison for the party chair, says otherwise.

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7042 on: March 27, 2020, 12:55:17 AM »
Also what happened with the moderate candidates and their COLUSION against Bernie and Liz the day before Super Tuesday let them know exactly where they sit with the party.

the voters let them know where they sit with the party.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline Spracne

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7043 on: March 27, 2020, 01:01:22 AM »
Yes. That's why we have Mighty Joe Biden.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7044 on: March 27, 2020, 01:06:57 AM »
Also what happened with the moderate candidates and their COLUSION against Bernie and Liz the day before Super Tuesday let them know exactly where they sit with the party.

the voters let them know where they sit with the party.

Nothing to do with the point, but you do you.

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7045 on: March 27, 2020, 01:30:22 AM »
it has everything to do with the point.  sanders is not losing because anyone colluded against him.  he's not losing because some shadowy establishment denied him access to the golden ring.  he's losing because the ordinary, everyday masses of democratic voters did not want him to be the nominee.

if progressives can't honestly diagnose their problem, it impairs their ability to improve in future elections.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline chum1

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7046 on: March 27, 2020, 07:28:12 AM »
Bernie is still in the race primarily due to his massive ego. If there'e another reason, it's a DISTANT second.

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7047 on: March 27, 2020, 07:38:47 AM »
it has everything to do with the point.  sanders is not losing because anyone colluded against him.  he's not losing because some shadowy establishment denied him access to the golden ring.  he's losing because the ordinary, everyday masses of democratic voters did not want him to be the nominee.

if progressives can't honestly diagnose their problem, it impairs their ability to improve in future elections.

I tried to make this point too and just got called stupid and immature or something
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline chum1

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7048 on: March 27, 2020, 07:46:26 AM »
If you think Sanders should stay in the race at this point, you might think that democracy is stupid and immature or something.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7049 on: March 27, 2020, 10:32:02 AM »
it has everything to do with the point.  sanders is not losing because anyone colluded against him.  he's not losing because some shadowy establishment denied him access to the golden ring.  he's losing because the ordinary, everyday masses of democratic voters did not want him to be the nominee.

if progressives can't honestly diagnose their problem, it impairs their ability to improve in future elections.

So it seems we're just talking past each other and having different conversations. I'm talking about the progressive agenda as it relates to the democratic party. Yes, the voters rejected Sanders, this is true and never has been argued against. What's also true is that the DNC and moderate democrats have done everything possible to put their finger on the scale because they think that Bernie isn't electable, it's happened twice. What's also true is that exit polls have consistently indicated that democratic voters favor an agenda which aligns with progressive views.

All three of these things are true, the fact that you refuse to acknowledge two of these three truths doesn't make them less so.