Author Topic: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats  (Read 535252 times)

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Offline Woogy

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3250 on: October 17, 2019, 03:15:51 PM »
Quick, honest question:  Is the "Medicare for All" world including dental and vision services?  IOW your common Medigap supplemental policies that aren't really Medicare but are commonly part of private insurance?

 :dunno: doubt it

Can you elaborate on this "Medigap supplemental policies that aren't really Medicare but are commonly part of private insurance?" Every job I've had has provided these as separate pieces. Delta Dental seems to have a monopoly on this and hoooo boy it's shows in those markets.

Yeah, they are essentially the same type of additional coverage, just that a lot of private/employer sponsored plans include it at least as an opt-in or opt-out, with that pricing presented up front.  More or less a one-stop shopping experience.

In the Medicare world, these are totally separate private insurance contracts that need to be shopped for by individuals.  It would be a huge perceptual hurdle to have a Medicare tax increase, or whatever upfront funding mechanism, and still have individuals need to shop private insurance for dental/vision.

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3251 on: October 17, 2019, 03:21:46 PM »
If that was true then you wouldn't have had to type any of the rest.

how many of the speeches that he's delivered this campaign have you listened to?  if you are like 99.9% of voters, the answer is 0.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3252 on: October 17, 2019, 03:22:29 PM »
MIR: everyone knows Liz’s plan will increase taxes.

Also MIR: how could you ask Liz to admit her plan will increase taxes? Republicans will destroy her if people find out!!

Are you being obtuse or do you really not know the difference between how opponents of health care reform speak of it now and how they would if the leading Democratic candidate went on record saying that her health care reform plan would require a middle class tax increase?

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3253 on: October 17, 2019, 03:31:35 PM »
Most will pay less?  If 71% of households will pay more, how can you say most will pay less?

I didn't say that I take that guy's numbers as gospel. He has good research and I think his plan to beef up the ACA, while leaving a lot to be desired, is a better plan than Medicare for all. I don't know how he can say that definitively with the cost of health care being such a moving target. All of these numbers are estimated costs that can be manipulated to come to whatever conclusion you want them to.

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3254 on: October 17, 2019, 03:32:45 PM »
So you mean completely ineffective, right?

as someone who participates in an (sometimes, depending on where i live and how i pursue it) illegal hobby, it is pretty damn effective.  when you can't take your snake out in public, can't go shoot it at some gun range, can't post it on facebook, can't comment about it on gun nut message boards, can't advertise it for sale, can't meet up with fellow collectors, etc the joy of the hobby fades pretty quick.

"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3255 on: October 17, 2019, 03:34:23 PM »
Quick, honest question:  Is the "Medicare for All" world including dental and vision services?  IOW your common Medigap supplemental policies that aren't really Medicare but are commonly part of private insurance?

 :dunno: doubt it

Can you elaborate on this "Medigap supplemental policies that aren't really Medicare but are commonly part of private insurance?" Every job I've had has provided these as separate pieces. Delta Dental seems to have a monopoly on this and hoooo boy it's shows in those markets.

Yeah, they are essentially the same type of additional coverage, just that a lot of private/employer sponsored plans include it at least as an opt-in or opt-out, with that pricing presented up front.  More or less a one-stop shopping experience.

In the Medicare world, these are totally separate private insurance contracts that need to be shopped for by individuals.  It would be a huge perceptual hurdle to have a Medicare tax increase, or whatever upfront funding mechanism, and still have individuals need to shop private insurance for dental/vision.

Do we have the details of anyone's plan to say this will definitely be the case?

Offline nicname

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3256 on: October 17, 2019, 03:34:45 PM »
So you mean completely ineffective, right?

as someone who participates in an (sometimes, depending on where i live and how i pursue it) illegal hobby, it is pretty damn effective.  when you can't take your snake out in public, can't go shoot it at some gun range, can't post it on facebook, can't comment about it on gun nut message boards, can't advertise it for sale, can't meet up with fellow collectors, etc the joy of the hobby fades pretty quick.


Not so w weed imo.
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3257 on: October 17, 2019, 03:40:29 PM »
consumables are different in several fairly obvious ways.  the principal one being that the main reinforcing behavior is consuming the substance, which is not impacted by having to be kept nonpublic.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3258 on: October 17, 2019, 03:42:10 PM »
MIR: everyone knows Liz’s plan will increase taxes.

Also MIR: how could you ask Liz to admit her plan will increase taxes? Republicans will destroy her if people find out!!

she needs to answer question.  people actually like it when they are told what they perceive to be the truth.  not answering is mind-numbingly stupid.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3259 on: October 17, 2019, 04:00:01 PM »
MIR: everyone knows Liz’s plan will increase taxes.

Also MIR: how could you ask Liz to admit her plan will increase taxes? Republicans will destroy her if people find out!!

she needs to answer question.  people actually like it when they are told what they perceive to be the truth.  not answering is mind-numbingly stupid.

It's very frustrating that she can't/won't give the answer but why is she the only person that needs to bear that burden. Again there is no substantive health care plan that won't require a tax increase. If she said that all of you would also lose your crap. So she either continues to not answer the question or she answers it so that she satisfies her critics then she has to take everyone out too.

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3260 on: October 17, 2019, 04:09:33 PM »
sanders is the only other candidate that advocates the same plan, and he is able to articulate that some people would have to pay more in taxes.  the world doesn't end when he does so.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3261 on: October 17, 2019, 04:12:41 PM »
So you mean completely ineffective, right?

as someone who participates in an (sometimes, depending on where i live and how i pursue it) illegal hobby, it is pretty damn effective.  when you can't take your snake out in public, can't go shoot it at some gun range, can't post it on facebook, can't comment about it on gun nut message boards, can't advertise it for sale, can't meet up with fellow collectors, etc the joy of the hobby fades pretty quick.


Not so w weed imo.

disagree, having lived through a recreational legalization I can promise way more people speak freely and openly about using marijuana and more people use it socially. Particularly among like suburbanites and parents. For me, it just wasn't worth the risk and extra hassle when it was illegal.

Offline michigancat

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3262 on: October 17, 2019, 04:13:59 PM »
sanders is the only other candidate that advocates the same plan, and he is able to articulate that some people would have to pay more in taxes.  the world doesn't end when he does so.

the bernie sis's I follow on twitter think she doesn't really want it and will cave to the billionaires when push comes to shove.

Offline Woogy

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3263 on: October 17, 2019, 04:16:16 PM »
Quick, honest question:  Is the "Medicare for All" world including dental and vision services?  IOW your common Medigap supplemental policies that aren't really Medicare but are commonly part of private insurance?

 :dunno: doubt it

Can you elaborate on this "Medigap supplemental policies that aren't really Medicare but are commonly part of private insurance?" Every job I've had has provided these as separate pieces. Delta Dental seems to have a monopoly on this and hoooo boy it's shows in those markets.

Yeah, they are essentially the same type of additional coverage, just that a lot of private/employer sponsored plans include it at least as an opt-in or opt-out, with that pricing presented up front.  More or less a one-stop shopping experience.

In the Medicare world, these are totally separate private insurance contracts that need to be shopped for by individuals.  It would be a huge perceptual hurdle to have a Medicare tax increase, or whatever upfront funding mechanism, and still have individuals need to shop private insurance for dental/vision.

Do we have the details of anyone's plan to say this will definitely be the case?

I honestly don't know, but following the differential of coverage prices on the private side, if they aren't included, its another 10-15% or so either out of individuals pockets or on top of costs already estimated.  If we're going to go all the way with MFA or a public buy in option, then we should probably go all the way and include the Dental\Vision. 

Will have to do some digging to see if anyone has been specific enough one way or the other.

Offline DQ12

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3264 on: October 17, 2019, 04:18:04 PM »
It's hers (and any proponent of the plan's) burden to explain why the tax increase won't end up costing people more money.  Her explanation will of course be reasonable (and debatable), but without acknowledging how it's being paid, the conversation doesn't even begin.

Is her plan to put off acknowledging it until after it's signed?  Come on, Liz!  Be frank and give your potential voters a little credit.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline Trim

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3265 on: October 17, 2019, 04:24:35 PM »
So you mean completely ineffective, right?

as someone who participates in an (sometimes, depending on where i live and how i pursue it) illegal hobby, it is pretty damn effective.  when you can't take your snake out in public, can't go shoot it at some gun range, can't post it on facebook, can't comment about it on gun nut message boards, can't advertise it for sale, can't meet up with fellow collectors, etc the joy of the hobby fades pretty quick.



When I first read this and right before I saw the metaphor or whatever, I pictured you taking your snake to a gun range and shooting the snake with a gun and was very wtf.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3266 on: October 17, 2019, 04:30:25 PM »
MIR: everyone knows Liz’s plan will increase taxes.

Also MIR: how could you ask Liz to admit her plan will increase taxes? Republicans will destroy her if people find out!!

Are you being obtuse or do you really not know the difference between how opponents of health care reform speak of it now and how they would if the leading Democratic candidate went on record saying that her health care reform plan would require a middle class tax increase?

The voters you imagine are likely to be swayed by this type of rhetoric do not exist. Anyone even remotely interested in universal healthcare will be receptive to a conversation that involves taxes likely going up. Everyone else had already written Warren off. She has positioned herself as an even a bigger “let’s have the federal government step in and fix all this crap” candidate than Bernie.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3267 on: October 17, 2019, 04:31:35 PM »
So you mean completely ineffective, right?

as someone who participates in an (sometimes, depending on where i live and how i pursue it) illegal hobby, it is pretty damn effective.  when you can't take your snake out in public, can't go shoot it at some gun range, can't post it on facebook, can't comment about it on gun nut message boards, can't advertise it for sale, can't meet up with fellow collectors, etc the joy of the hobby fades pretty quick.



When I first read this and right before I saw the metaphor or whatever, I pictured you taking your snake to a gun range and shooting the snake with a gun and was very wtf.

At first I thought it was a metaphor, but for something else. :fatty:

Offline catastrophe

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3268 on: October 17, 2019, 04:34:33 PM »
So you mean completely ineffective, right?

as someone who participates in an (sometimes, depending on where i live and how i pursue it) illegal hobby, it is pretty damn effective.  when you can't take your snake out in public, can't go shoot it at some gun range, can't post it on facebook, can't comment about it on gun nut message boards, can't advertise it for sale, can't meet up with fellow collectors, etc the joy of the hobby fades pretty quick.

I’m just as concerned about it actually being effective. Asking police officers to confront armed people who are already likely distrustful of the government seems like a bad policy if you can avoid it, and I think it’s definitely avoidable.

Offline Woogy

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3269 on: October 17, 2019, 04:47:40 PM »


Do we have the details of anyone's plan to say this will definitely be the case?

I honestly don't know, but following the differential of coverage prices on the private side, if they aren't included, its another 10-15% or so either out of individuals pockets or on top of costs already estimated.  If we're going to go all the way with MFA or a public buy in option, then we should probably go all the way and include the Dental\Vision. 

Will have to do some digging to see if anyone has been specific enough one way or the other.

According to Sanders' 2017 MFA bill it seems would; MFA at least as Sanders proposed it is actually Medicare A (hospitalization) + Medicare B (diagnostic/preventative) + Medicare D (prescriptions) + Supplemental (dental/vision) at the minimum.

Quote
SEC. 201. COMPREHENSIVE BENEFITS.
(a) In General.—Subject to the other provisions of this title and titles IV through IX, individuals enrolled for benefits under this Act are entitled to have payment made by the Secretary to an eligible provider for the following items and services if medically necessary or appropriate for the maintenance of health or for the diagnosis, treatment, or rehabilitation of a health condition:

(1) Hospital services, including inpatient and outpatient hospital care, including 24-hour-a-day emergency services and inpatient prescription drugs.
(2) Ambulatory patient services.
(3) Primary and preventive services, including chronic disease management.
(4) Prescription drugs, medical devices, biological products, including outpatient prescription drugs, medical devices, and biological products.
(5) Mental health and substance abuse treatment services, including inpatient care.
(6) Laboratory and diagnostic services.
(7) Comprehensive reproductive, maternity, and newborn care.
(8) Pediatrics.
(9) Oral health, audiology, and vision services.
(10) Short-term rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/1804/text#toc-id25c91cb96228483495ad9de0b47b79f8

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3270 on: October 17, 2019, 05:50:33 PM »
Thank you Woogy for actually posting the bill.  As for cost, even with accounting for Sander's 100% coverage of everyone which now includes free at the point of service comprehensive healthcare.  It is $2 TRILLION cheaper over 10 years than private insurance.

https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2018/07/30/mercatus-study-finds-medicare-for-all-saves-2-trillion/

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3271 on: October 17, 2019, 05:57:30 PM »
As for Pete, he is an absolute snake.  Here is him 1 year ago proclaiming he supports Medicare 4 All, which he now says is ridiculous.

https://twitter.com/PeteButtigieg/status/965396700511825920

Offline 8manpick

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3272 on: October 17, 2019, 06:06:49 PM »
As for Pete, he is an absolute snake.  Here is him 1 year ago proclaiming he supports Medicare 4 All, which he now says is ridiculous.

https://twitter.com/PeteButtigieg/status/965396700511825920
That response is sarcastic as crap. He needed to get on with “fixing potholes”.
:adios:

Offline catastrophe

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3273 on: October 17, 2019, 07:49:39 PM »
As for Pete, he is an absolute snake.  Here is him 1 year ago proclaiming he supports Medicare 4 All, which he now says is ridiculous.

https://twitter.com/PeteButtigieg/status/965396700511825920

1. I’m sure if he still felt writing the policy himself was out of the question, he would still support Medicare for all

2. I have zero issues with politicians changing their stances if they offer a principled reason for doing so.

Offline steve dave

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #3274 on: October 17, 2019, 08:05:26 PM »
I’m fine with them changing their stances if they just say, “I changed my mind”. I do that all the time.


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