Author Topic: The trade wars begin  (Read 117234 times)

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Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #125 on: March 04, 2018, 08:09:24 PM »
Reminds me of the "public incentives" to get companies to come to your city. You can pretend they don't exist or do something about it.
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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #126 on: March 04, 2018, 08:12:55 PM »
Lol at "driving up the cost of beer". An alunimum can has like 2 cents of aluminum in it.
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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #127 on: March 04, 2018, 10:48:55 PM »
Interesting if true:

Quote
The goal of the tariffs proposed by Commerce and endorsed by the president isn’t to punish Chinese dumping or put an end to free trade. It’s to ensure that the United States retains any domestic steel and aluminum production at all. Like President Barack Obama’s controversial auto industry bailout in 2009, these tariffs are about keeping an industry for the future, not about making it profitable today.

If China has merely expressed concern over Trump’s plans, it’s because China is not really the target of the planned tariffs. China’s massive state-owned steel and aluminum firms may ultimately lie behind the world’s glutted markets, but Chinese products account for only a fraction of U.S. imports (2.2 percent for steel and 10.6 percent for aluminum). The real problem is that other countries—including allies like Canada and the European Union—have responded to years of Chinese dumping by subsidizing their own industries and imposing broad tariffs on Chinese steel. American antidumping measures have traditionally been more narrowly focused. In a sense, Trump is only catching up with what the rest of the world is doing already.

The simple fact is that the world produces much more steel and aluminum than it needs. A global shakeout is inevitable, and every country wants to make sure that its own industries are the ones that survive. The only question is: who will blink first? If one country has done a lot of blinking over the last twenty years, it’s the United States, as the Commerce Department report amply documents. Embracing a free-market approach, being reluctant to provide subsidies, applying very selective tariffs and never even thinking about nationalizing its strategic industries, the United States has consistently ceded market share to its satanist rivals overseas. The Trump tariffs bluntly but effectively draw a line under twenty years of creeping retreat.

In its evaluation of the Commerce Department reports, the Defense Department flatly concluded that “the systematic use of unfair trade practices to intentionally erode our innovation and manufacturing industrial base poses a risk to our national security” and agreed with the Commerce Department’s conclusion “that imports of foreign steel and aluminum based on unfair trading practices impair the national security.” Of the three national-security responses offered by Commerce, DoD preferred the second option, targeted tariffs, over the first (global tariffs) and third (global quotas).

Calling it a "national security" issue is very democrat-y
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Offline puniraptor

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #128 on: March 04, 2018, 11:08:07 PM »
maintaining domestic capacity in anticipation of a world war is really the only argument in favor of this

Offline IPA4Me

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #129 on: March 05, 2018, 04:37:53 AM »
maintaining domestic capacity in anticipation of a world war is really the only argument in favor of this
I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

Offline bucket

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #130 on: March 05, 2018, 11:30:07 AM »

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #131 on: March 05, 2018, 11:48:46 AM »
so it's kind of hilarious that Trump managed to turn liberals into unfettered free market capitalists overnight. :lol: But seriously, you should go ahead and find something else to freak out about (what's Trump tweeting today?). This whole meltdown over TRADE WARZ is idiotic.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/05/opinion/trump-tariffs-trade-recession.html

Quote
[D]espite the near-dogma status of free trade among economic writers, the proposed tariffs won’t end the world, and may even do some good.

First, let’s take them for what they are: temporary relief for specific sectors (steel and aluminum) facing a specific problem (global excess production capacity, propped up by foreign governmental subsidies). America has taken steps like this before, and did not slide down any slippery slope to autarky. This means that big-picture principles — like, “Free trade is good,” or, “Globalization decimated the American working class” — aren’t very helpful in assessing them.

For example, America’s trading partners have had to agree to increase their levels of intellectual property protection as a condition for more open access to American markets in agreements like Nafta and the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership. Yet proponents of these agreements have felt free to call them “free trade” treaties, even as these agreements instituted far higher levels of effective protection for specific sectors (mostly pharmaceuticals and software) than what was announced this past week for steel and aluminum.

It seems clear that protection for the profits of pharma and software companies agitates business writers and some economic policy experts far less than protection for manufacturing sectors heavy with blue-collar jobs. Is it any real shock that many believe that the rules of the game governing globalization have been rigged against typical American workers?

If we accept for a second that inconsistently applied first principles won’t get us very far in assessing the pros and cons of last week’s tariff announcements, it’s worth thinking about the specific challenges facing American steel and aluminum producers and how trade policy might help them.

Start with something everybody agrees upon: Global steel and aluminum sectors have large amounts of excess productive capacity. The problem is large enough that last year the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development issued a report on global excess steel capacity.

Generally, excess capacity pushes down prices, and less efficient firms that cannot make profits at these lower prices simply go out of business, pulling down capacity until it matches demand. But foreign producers of steel and aluminum, efficiently or not, have often been insulated from this competitive winnowing by government industrial policy that props them up — a fact bemoaned by both the G-20 and the Obama administration.

The proposed tariffs can provide a countervailing force against these foreign subsidies and protect American metal producers until a comprehensive solution is found. Am I confident that the Trump administration will back a smart and efficient solution to the larger problem? Not really — but this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be happy to have some breathing room to find one.

Some would argue that we should just see foreign steel subsidies as a boon for American consumers, who can now enjoy lower prices driven by cheaper steel. But here’s where the relative size of these “killer” tariffs becomes clear — we’re talking about fractions of a percent in prices, one way or the other. And again, no one is telling pharmaceutical companies and their workers that their protections need to be stripped away so that others can enjoy cheaper prices.
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Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #132 on: March 05, 2018, 11:57:24 AM »
Pointing out that Republicans bail on their positions because Trump said so and they are scared to stand up for their principles has been great fun.

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #133 on: March 05, 2018, 11:59:13 AM »
so it's kind of hilarious that Trump managed to turn liberals into unfettered free market capitalists overnight. :lol: But seriously, you should go ahead and find something else to freak out about (what's Trump tweeting today?). This whole meltdown over TRADE WARZ is idiotic.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/05/opinion/trump-tariffs-trade-recession.html

Quote
[D]espite the near-dogma status of free trade among economic writers, the proposed tariffs won’t end the world, and may even do some good.

First, let’s take them for what they are: temporary relief for specific sectors (steel and aluminum) facing a specific problem (global excess production capacity, propped up by foreign governmental subsidies). America has taken steps like this before, and did not slide down any slippery slope to autarky. This means that big-picture principles — like, “Free trade is good,” or, “Globalization decimated the American working class” — aren’t very helpful in assessing them.

For example, America’s trading partners have had to agree to increase their levels of intellectual property protection as a condition for more open access to American markets in agreements like Nafta and the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership. Yet proponents of these agreements have felt free to call them “free trade” treaties, even as these agreements instituted far higher levels of effective protection for specific sectors (mostly pharmaceuticals and software) than what was announced this past week for steel and aluminum.

It seems clear that protection for the profits of pharma and software companies agitates business writers and some economic policy experts far less than protection for manufacturing sectors heavy with blue-collar jobs. Is it any real shock that many believe that the rules of the game governing globalization have been rigged against typical American workers?

If we accept for a second that inconsistently applied first principles won’t get us very far in assessing the pros and cons of last week’s tariff announcements, it’s worth thinking about the specific challenges facing American steel and aluminum producers and how trade policy might help them.

Start with something everybody agrees upon: Global steel and aluminum sectors have large amounts of excess productive capacity. The problem is large enough that last year the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development issued a report on global excess steel capacity.

Generally, excess capacity pushes down prices, and less efficient firms that cannot make profits at these lower prices simply go out of business, pulling down capacity until it matches demand. But foreign producers of steel and aluminum, efficiently or not, have often been insulated from this competitive winnowing by government industrial policy that props them up — a fact bemoaned by both the G-20 and the Obama administration.

The proposed tariffs can provide a countervailing force against these foreign subsidies and protect American metal producers until a comprehensive solution is found. Am I confident that the Trump administration will back a smart and efficient solution to the larger problem? Not really — but this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be happy to have some breathing room to find one.

Some would argue that we should just see foreign steel subsidies as a boon for American consumers, who can now enjoy lower prices driven by cheaper steel. But here’s where the relative size of these “killer” tariffs becomes clear — we’re talking about fractions of a percent in prices, one way or the other. And again, no one is telling pharmaceutical companies and their workers that their protections need to be stripped away so that others can enjoy cheaper prices.

I think it's great that the democrats are taking free trade positions. It will improve their overall platform tremendously if they stick with that after Trump is gone.

Offline LickNeckey

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #134 on: March 05, 2018, 11:59:52 AM »
so it's kind of hilarious that Trump managed to turn liberals into unfettered free market capitalists overnight. :lol: But seriously, you should go ahead and find something else to freak out about (what's Trump tweeting today?). This whole meltdown over TRADE WARZ is idiotic.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/05/opinion/trump-tariffs-trade-recession.html

Quote
[D]espite the near-dogma status of free trade among economic writers, the proposed tariffs won’t end the world, and may even do some good.

First, let’s take them for what they are: temporary relief for specific sectors (steel and aluminum) facing a specific problem (global excess production capacity, propped up by foreign governmental subsidies). America has taken steps like this before, and did not slide down any slippery slope to autarky. This means that big-picture principles — like, “Free trade is good,” or, “Globalization decimated the American working class” — aren’t very helpful in assessing them.

For example, America’s trading partners have had to agree to increase their levels of intellectual property protection as a condition for more open access to American markets in agreements like Nafta and the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership. Yet proponents of these agreements have felt free to call them “free trade” treaties, even as these agreements instituted far higher levels of effective protection for specific sectors (mostly pharmaceuticals and software) than what was announced this past week for steel and aluminum.

It seems clear that protection for the profits of pharma and software companies agitates business writers and some economic policy experts far less than protection for manufacturing sectors heavy with blue-collar jobs. Is it any real shock that many believe that the rules of the game governing globalization have been rigged against typical American workers?

If we accept for a second that inconsistently applied first principles won’t get us very far in assessing the pros and cons of last week’s tariff announcements, it’s worth thinking about the specific challenges facing American steel and aluminum producers and how trade policy might help them.

Start with something everybody agrees upon: Global steel and aluminum sectors have large amounts of excess productive capacity. The problem is large enough that last year the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development issued a report on global excess steel capacity.

Generally, excess capacity pushes down prices, and less efficient firms that cannot make profits at these lower prices simply go out of business, pulling down capacity until it matches demand. But foreign producers of steel and aluminum, efficiently or not, have often been insulated from this competitive winnowing by government industrial policy that props them up — a fact bemoaned by both the G-20 and the Obama administration.

The proposed tariffs can provide a countervailing force against these foreign subsidies and protect American metal producers until a comprehensive solution is found. Am I confident that the Trump administration will back a smart and efficient solution to the larger problem? Not really — but this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be happy to have some breathing room to find one.

Some would argue that we should just see foreign steel subsidies as a boon for American consumers, who can now enjoy lower prices driven by cheaper steel. But here’s where the relative size of these “killer” tariffs becomes clear — we’re talking about fractions of a percent in prices, one way or the other. And again, no one is telling pharmaceutical companies and their workers that their protections need to be stripped away so that others can enjoy cheaper prices.

Interestingly enough both NAFTA and the TPP were advanced by Democratic Presidents and generally speaking Free Trade has been supported by educated and affluent Americans across the political spectrum for some time.

That being said you will never guess which party changed its opinions in the last election cycle...

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/25/support-for-free-trade-agreements-rebounds-modestly-but-wide-partisan-differences-remain/

Among Republicans, positive views of free trade plummeted during the presidential contest, when Donald Trump made opposition to trade agreements a signature issue of his campaign.

In October, just 29% of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents said free trade agreements have been good for the U.S., down from 56% just a year-and-a-half earlier. Today, 36% of Republicans view trade agreements positively, an increase of seven percentage points from October.

Democrats were far more supportive than Republicans of free trade agreements throughout the presidential campaign, and remain so today. Currently, 67% of Democrats and Democratic leaners say free trade agreements have been good for the U.S., up from 59% in October.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #135 on: March 05, 2018, 12:12:12 PM »
Pointing out that Republicans bail on their positions because Trump said so and they are scared to stand up for their principles has been great fun.

It’s the best running joke in the Pit.

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #136 on: March 05, 2018, 12:15:52 PM »
I'm not surprised at all that democrats like what people in the pit are calling "free trade" and that republicans oppose unequal psuedo-"free trade" deals like those cited in the NYT article above.
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Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #137 on: March 05, 2018, 12:42:00 PM »
I'm not surprised at all that democrats like what people in the pit are calling "free trade" and that republicans oppose unequal psuedo-"free trade" deals like those cited in the NYT article above.

So you support tariffs on steel and aluminum?

Offline Joker

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #138 on: March 05, 2018, 12:46:08 PM »
Cheaper materials benefit everyone except for those producing them.  In this case, an ever-shrinking steel industry that has suffered largely due to technological advances more than anything else.  It seems pretty stupid to potentially inflict damage upon the overall economy in order to prop up a dying industry.

I am by no means a liberal or Democrat.  But I think it's important to call out Trump (or any president) when he proposes/says stupid crap.

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #139 on: March 05, 2018, 12:50:42 PM »
These tariffs won’t bring the steel industry back to 30 year ago levels all the rust belt folks pray for

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #140 on: March 05, 2018, 12:54:54 PM »
I'm not surprised at all that democrats like what people in the pit are calling "free trade" and that republicans oppose unequal psuedo-"free trade" deals like those cited in the NYT article above.

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Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #141 on: March 05, 2018, 01:31:15 PM »
Gonna be a fun election cycle when protectionist GOP candidates defend this one.

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #142 on: March 05, 2018, 02:32:53 PM »
Pointing out that Republicans bail on their positions because Drumpf said so and they are scared to stand up for their principles has been great fun.

It’s the best running joke in the Pit.

It really is. The mind warp is fantastic.
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Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #143 on: March 05, 2018, 03:16:19 PM »
Pointing out that Republicans bail on their positions because Drumpf said so and they are scared to stand up for their principles has been great fun.

It’s the best running joke in the Pit.

It really is. The mind warp is fantastic.

With Trump's moves getting less and less conservative the lag time between his announcements and the internet's ability to churn out talking points to support the latest Trump maneuver gets longer.  That's why I said eventually any true conservative will have to just throw in the towel.


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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #144 on: March 05, 2018, 08:06:05 PM »
Wait, you guys are surprised by this????

Lol, it's literally the backbone of MAGA. He won PA, OH, MI, WI, etc on this promise.
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Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #145 on: March 05, 2018, 08:07:16 PM »
Wait, you guys are surprised by this????

Lol, it's literally the backbone of MAGA. He won PA, OH, MI, WI, etc on this promise.

Didn’t think he’d turn into a lib but you are right.

Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #146 on: March 05, 2018, 10:44:17 PM »
Struggling to reconcile with the "he lied to his base" quip you've posted 1000x in the pit???
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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #147 on: March 05, 2018, 10:45:02 PM »
#nevertrump derangement is a smelly perfume
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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #148 on: March 05, 2018, 10:59:30 PM »
Struggling to reconcile with the "he lied to his base" quip you've posted 1000x in the pit???

Did he promise steel tariffs?  I’ll agree with you if he did.

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Re: The trade wars begin
« Reply #149 on: March 05, 2018, 11:12:11 PM »
I don't want you to agree with me. You are a moron and a banal troll.
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