Author Topic: A Fine Line  (Read 14919 times)

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Offline ChiComCat

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2017, 09:21:51 AM »




Leave it to ol K-S-U to take a hard stance on what is and isn't "real rape"
It is a real problem the way the we are watering down terms to where they don't mean anything anymore. If Harvey Weinstein and George HW Bush both have "sexual assault victims", then the term "sexual assault" doesn't mean anything anymore.  When two drunk people having sex together is called "rape", it minimizes the term to nothingness.

The left has done the same with racism and bigotry of all sorts in recent years.  It's horribly counterproductive to a movement that is well-intentioned.

I don't know that being drunk should be considered a valid defense for someone's actions. 

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2017, 09:21:57 AM »
Actually, I did not know that. Sorry bud.

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It's all good.  :eye:

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2017, 09:24:28 AM »




Leave it to ol K-S-U to take a hard stance on what is and isn't "real rape"
It is a real problem the way the we are watering down terms to where they don't mean anything anymore. If Harvey Weinstein and George HW Bush both have "sexual assault victims", then the term "sexual assault" doesn't mean anything anymore.  When two drunk people having sex together is called "rape", it minimizes the term to nothingness.

The left has done the same with racism and bigotry of all sorts in recent years.  It's horribly counterproductive to a movement that is well-intentioned.
This! ^

Offline 8manpick

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2017, 09:35:02 AM »




Leave it to ol K-S-U to take a hard stance on what is and isn't "real rape"
It is a real problem the way the we are watering down terms to where they don't mean anything anymore. If Harvey Weinstein and George HW Bush both have "sexual assault victims", then the term "sexual assault" doesn't mean anything anymore.  When two drunk people having sex together is called "rape", it minimizes the term to nothingness.

The left has done the same with racism and bigotry of all sorts in recent years.  It's horribly counterproductive to a movement that is well-intentioned.

I don't know that being drunk should be considered a valid defense for someone's actions.
It never is nor should it be.
:adios:

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2017, 09:36:31 AM »




Leave it to ol K-S-U to take a hard stance on what is and isn't "real rape"
It is a real problem the way the we are watering down terms to where they don't mean anything anymore. If Harvey Weinstein and George HW Bush both have "sexual assault victims", then the term "sexual assault" doesn't mean anything anymore.  When two drunk people having sex together is called "rape", it minimizes the term to nothingness.

The left has done the same with racism and bigotry of all sorts in recent years.  It's horribly counterproductive to a movement that is well-intentioned.

I don't know that being drunk should be considered a valid defense for someone's actions.

For it to be rape, wouldn't being drunk have to be considered a valid defense for one party's actions but not the other?

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2017, 10:06:09 AM »




Leave it to ol K-S-U to take a hard stance on what is and isn't "real rape"
It is a real problem the way the we are watering down terms to where they don't mean anything anymore. If Harvey Weinstein and George HW Bush both have "sexual assault victims", then the term "sexual assault" doesn't mean anything anymore.  When two drunk people having sex together is called "rape", it minimizes the term to nothingness.

The left has done the same with racism and bigotry of all sorts in recent years.  It's horribly counterproductive to a movement that is well-intentioned.

I don't know that being drunk should be considered a valid defense for someone's actions.

It isn't. But it's also not so simple when both people are drunk.

The problem arises when schools impose bright line, zero tolerance standards because they don't have the training, experience, or wherewithal to fully and fairly investigate sexual assault claims. So instead, they simply say: (1) no consent = rape, and (2) drinking alcohol = no consent. Put those two things together, and having sex with a drunk person is always rape (or at least "sexual misconduct" under most school policies). But if both people are drunk, it logically follows under this zero-tolerance standard that they both raped each other.

This is what Mrs. Gooch literally said above. Which, of course, is stupid. I think even Mrs. G realizes how stupid that sounds. Every thinking person would readily acknowledge that there is no such thing as mutual rape. But that's the absurdity you reach based upon these bright line tests.

To avoid this absurdity, universities just discriminate against men, assuming that they are always the perpetrator in drunk sex situations. This discrimination is even worse than the mutual rape absurdity. It leads to situations like what happened here: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2015/02/drunk_sex_on_campus_universities_are_struggling_to_determine_when_intoxicated.html That article will make you cringe.

In reality, we all know that there's no such thing as mutual rape, and we all know that a guy isn't always a rapist in drunk sex situations. This isn't some game or a matter of, "well, we have to protect women at all costs thing." Rape is a horrible crime. A false rape charge is likewise horrible. Both have to receive serious consideration.

So how do you disentangle the messy situation of "drunk sex?" Where is the line between regrettable judgment and rape? Well, for starters, divide the facts from the law. The facts are often going to be murky, but very important, so let's set that aside for a moment.

The law actually isn't that hard. Some states define having sex with someone who is incapacitated as rape (and drunk generally means incapacitated), but also qualify that this situation isn't rape if the accused likewise lacked the ability to understand that the person was incapacitated. Take Ohio's law, for example:

Quote
[No person shall engage in sexual activity when] the other person's ability to resist or consent is substantially impaired because of a mental or physical condition or because of advanced age, and the offender knows or has reasonable cause to believe that the other person's ability to resist or consent is substantially impaired because of a mental or physical condition or because of advanced age.

Basically, this provides an out for "mutual drunk sex" that one party later comes to regret. And that's just common sense. But then it comes down to the facts.

Obviously, a guy being a little bit drunk is not going to be a defense to having sex with a girl who is passed out in the back room. That's rape. And a guy being so black-out drunk that he can't even realize his "partner" is passed out is likewise not reasonable. You have to look at the actions of both parties. The guy, even if drunk, knew or should have known full damn well the girl was passed out. She took no steps to initiate or have sex. He "did all the work." But if both parties were conscious and took steps to having sex (getting into a room together, getting into bed together, taking off clothes, kissing, etc.), that's probably not rape just because both were drunk. So police look at the facts. They talk to witnesses. They read text messages (helpfully, millennials keep a running audit log of their behavior via text and tweet). They perform an investigation that schools are not competent to do.

What schools can and should do is take steps to avoid these situations!! For starters, ban alcohol on campus, and no more co-ed campus housing. It is ironic that the feminist movement pushed for co-ed dorms, and they have become a cesspool of drunk sex situations.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 10:33:35 AM by K-S-U-Wildcats! »
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline michigancat

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2017, 10:39:00 AM »




Leave it to ol K-S-U to take a hard stance on what is and isn't "real rape"
It is a real problem the way the we are watering down terms to where they don't mean anything anymore. If Harvey Weinstein and George HW Bush both have "sexual assault victims", then the term "sexual assault" doesn't mean anything anymore.  When two drunk people having sex together is called "rape", it minimizes the term to nothingness.

The left has done the same with racism and bigotry of all sorts in recent years.  It's horribly counterproductive to a movement that is well-intentioned.

I mean, you kind of have a point, but overall both are a net positive. Calling out pieces of crap for groping/etc. even if it isn't "real rape" does more for society than "watered down sexual assault" does harm, just as calling out racism that might not be as bad as the KKK is better for society than white people being able to sing the n-word at a rap show is bad for society.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2017, 10:42:56 AM »
These aren’t real controversies, btw. A little sexual harassment training is helpful, but 90% of “confusion” in all these actual cases is based on partisans trying to find a way to condemn other people while not condemning their own.

Here’s a tip: if you think you’re approaching a “fine line” or entering a “gray area,” just stop.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2017, 10:49:31 AM »
I think even Mrs. G realizes how stupid that sounds.

I hope you realize that I was actually trying to point out the absurdity of it by pointing out that applying the same logic to both people they would have been considered to rape each other. I don't really think there is an offense of mutual rape.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2017, 10:53:00 AM »
Here's another mutual rape situation: On Shameless where Debbie (15) is hanging out/drinking with a 24 year old guy who had no intention of having sex with her. Then after he passes out drunk, she has sex with him. So she raped him (he did not give consent) but he statutory raped her (15 can't give consent, the adult shouldn't have been drinking with a minor).

Offline steve dave

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2017, 10:54:10 AM »
man, debbie loves to party

Offline 8manpick

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2017, 10:56:49 AM »
Spoiler alert, what the eff MG?
:adios:

Offline catastrophe

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2017, 10:56:52 AM »
But were Debbie’s parents cool with it?

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2017, 10:58:51 AM »
Another pro tip guys, if you are ugly and she isn't, it's over the line

Offline Spracne

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2017, 10:59:16 AM »
Here's another mutual rape situation: On Shameless where Debbie (15) is hanging out/drinking with a 24 year old guy who had no intention of having sex with her. Then after he passes out drunk, she has sex with him. So she raped him (he did not give consent) but he statutory raped her (15 can't give consent, the adult shouldn't have been drinking with a minor).
It's not statutory rape without a conscious movement.

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Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #90 on: November 17, 2017, 11:01:02 AM »
But were Debbie’s parents cool with it?

Here mom is no where to be found pychopath and her dad is a no where to be found drug addict; so yeah I think they were fine with it.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #91 on: November 17, 2017, 11:06:08 AM »
Spoiler alert, what the eff MG?

Sorry. That happened like 3 season ago.

Offline 8manpick

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #92 on: November 17, 2017, 11:12:26 AM »
Spoiler alert, what the eff MG?

Sorry. That happened like 3 season ago.
:( I'm only on season 2
:adios:

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #93 on: November 17, 2017, 11:31:31 AM »
Look away 8man














Debbie's parents want someone to take care of her, so they're totally cool with it. They forced her upon a handicap person so she had a place to stay and live and for her baby to be taken care of.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #94 on: November 17, 2017, 11:47:56 AM »
I think even Mrs. G realizes how stupid that sounds.

I hope you realize that I was actually trying to point out the absurdity of it by pointing out that applying the same logic to both people they would have been considered to rape each other. I don't really think there is an offense of mutual rape.

I realize that now. Thanks.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline michigancat

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #95 on: November 17, 2017, 12:18:08 PM »
To avoid this absurdity, universities just discriminate against men, assuming that they are always the perpetrator in drunk sex situations. This discrimination is even worse than the mutual rape absurdity. It leads to situations like what happened here: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2015/02/drunk_sex_on_campus_universities_are_struggling_to_determine_when_intoxicated.html That article will make you cringe.

I thought the Occidental situation was ridiculous, but that was a really good read and part of an important conversation to have. Brought up a lot of good points.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #96 on: November 17, 2017, 12:43:20 PM »
Look away 8man














Debbie's parents want someone to take care of her, so they're totally cool with it. They forced her upon a handicap person so she had a place to stay and live and for her baby to be taken care of.

Debbie's parents should be in jail

Offline Institutional Control

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #97 on: November 17, 2017, 12:56:35 PM »
Sounds like she's related to Brenda from "Brenda's Got a Baby".

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #98 on: November 17, 2017, 01:00:43 PM »
Look away 8man














Debbie's parents want someone to take care of her, so they're totally cool with it. They forced her upon a handicap person so she had a place to stay and live and for her baby to be taken care of.

Debbie's parents should be in jail

Wanting someone to take care of their daughter is the least of their offenses.

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: A Fine Line
« Reply #99 on: November 17, 2017, 01:12:43 PM »
They pawned her off because their incapable tho