Author Topic: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)  (Read 137668 times)

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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #550 on: November 29, 2017, 01:38:35 PM »
I know when I think "hard work" I think of Trumps idiot children and not someone that would benefit from a cut to the payroll tax.

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #551 on: November 29, 2017, 01:40:43 PM »
Yeah, the "smart, hardworking" argument falls apart when you also support eliminating the estate tax. The estate tax should be expanded so it affects everyone, imo.

Offline treysolid

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #552 on: November 29, 2017, 01:44:32 PM »
The only thing that directly causes job creation by a company is increased demand for that company's product or services. That's it. No company that is competently managed would ever hire more people simply because they got a tax break.

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #553 on: November 29, 2017, 01:54:01 PM »
Rich people have lots of money, therefore they are smart and work hard.

That is actually a logical statement to KSUW.

Offline Cire

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #554 on: November 29, 2017, 01:59:18 PM »
Money= smart hard working


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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #555 on: November 29, 2017, 02:00:20 PM »
MLK: not smart and hardworking

Offline Cire

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #556 on: November 29, 2017, 02:06:15 PM »
Maybe we need a smart people dumb people in history thread


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Offline Cire

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #557 on: November 29, 2017, 02:06:32 PM »
Hard working
Not hardworking


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Offline sys

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #558 on: November 29, 2017, 02:07:03 PM »
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #559 on: November 29, 2017, 02:15:53 PM »
Middle class tax cuts are not coming out of this bill according to all data so far. You want the highest paying taxpayers to pay less...fine...but anyone hiding behind this is going to help the coal miner is ridiculous.

You're simply wrong. I'll prove it to you by running the numbers for a few basic situations.

Let's take the Smiths, your average middle class family somewhere in the Midwest. They've got three dependent children and a combined AGI of $100,000. Would you agree that's middle class? Let's assume the Smiths have $18,000 in itemized deductions. That's probably way too high for folks with that income in the Midwest (biggest itemized deductions are typically SALT, property tax, and mortgage interest, which track pretty well to income). But whatever, let's go with it. Might be closer to accurate if the Smiths live in a higher tax, higher property value state.

Under the current code for 2017, the Smiths have a taxable income of $61,750 (after deducting their 5 personal exemptions and itemized deductions from AGI). Taxes on that income, minus a $3,000 Child Tax Credit come to $5,330 (an effective rate of 5.3%).

Under the House Plan for 2018, the Smith now have a taxable of income of $76,000 (they lose their 5 personal exemptions worth $4,050 a piece, but they are now claiming a standard deduction of $24,000 instead of itemizing). Their marginal rate on that taxable income is reduced and they're getting a $4,800 CTC, resulting in a tax bill of $1,440 (effective rate 1.4%). That's a tax cut of $3,890 and a 3.9% rate reduction.

How about if the Smiths only bring home $80,000 AGI? Let's run the same exact numbers except we'll reduce their itemized deductions to $16,000 (which makes sense in our hypothetical even though, again, this is probably too high for itemized deductions at that income, especially in the Midwest).

They'll owe $2,630 under the current code, and -$960 under the House Bill (they owe negative tax and get money back due to partial refundability of CTC). That's a tax cut of $3,590.

Now I know what you're saying - those damned "breeders" aren't representative of a Midwest family. That's (1) bullshit, and (2) irrelevant. Let's rerun the same numbers with only 1 kid....

At 100k AGI, the Smiths pay $8,545 under current law, and $4,640 under House Plan. A tax cut of $3,905.

At 80k, the Smiths pay $5,845 under current law, and $2,240 under the House Plan. A tax cut of $3,605.

Under every scenario above, a gobsmacking tax cut. The only way to get to tax increases is if you get into itemized deductions vastly in excess of the newly doubled standard deduction - something that isn't going to be common for middle class incomes except maybe on the coasts.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 02:20:01 PM by K-S-U-Wildcats! »
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline 8manpick

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #560 on: November 29, 2017, 02:23:37 PM »
Average middle class family...AGI 100,000
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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #561 on: November 29, 2017, 02:24:57 PM »
Yeah, expanding the child tax credit eliminates most of the concern about middle class families getting tax increases. I still think it would be a much better plan overall if we were to eliminate the child tax credit altogether and keep personal exemptions, though. Maybe keep the estate tax and tweak the corporate rate enough to make that revenue-neutral.

Offline 8manpick

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #562 on: November 29, 2017, 02:25:39 PM »
Median household income in KS is $51k
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Offline 8manpick

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #563 on: November 29, 2017, 02:29:12 PM »
Oh wait, $80k drops to right around the 70th percentile, guess thats reasonable for upper middle class
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Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #564 on: November 29, 2017, 02:33:31 PM »
Don't be a dumbass. Those AGIs are absolutely middle class for a family of 5, and even for a family of 3 (the two scenarios presented above). https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0912/which-income-class-are-you.aspx

And regardless, even if you dropped down to $60k AGI, they still get a huge tax cut.

Family of 5: a $3,290 cut.

Family of 3: a $3,305 cut.

These calculations assume the CTC is fully refundable at this low threshold, and it appears they would be. I think the House Plan caps refundability at 15% of AGI. So that easily covers the full value of the credit for an AGI of 60k.

You people arguing that the "middle class" aren't getting a tax cut are simply wrong.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 02:46:53 PM by K-S-U-Wildcats! »
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline chum1

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #565 on: November 29, 2017, 02:44:41 PM »

Offline mocat

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #566 on: November 29, 2017, 02:53:04 PM »
I do think that liberal and conservative brains are wired differently.

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-turn-conservatives-liberal-john-bargh-psychology-2017-10

wow, science says conservatives are by definition irl frightened snowflakes

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #567 on: November 29, 2017, 02:53:37 PM »
Yeah, expanding the child tax credit eliminates most of the concern about middle class families getting tax increases. I still think it would be a much better plan overall if we were to eliminate the child tax credit altogether and keep personal exemptions, though. Maybe keep the estate tax and tweak the corporate rate enough to make that revenue-neutral.

I agree with you as a matter of policy. I far prefer deductions to credits, which help make the code less progressive. But expansion of the CTC is a big piece of giving such a generous tax cut to middle class families (the cut that liberals pretend doesn't exist).
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #568 on: November 29, 2017, 02:56:42 PM »
Yeah, expanding the child tax credit eliminates most of the concern about middle class families getting tax increases. I still think it would be a much better plan overall if we were to eliminate the child tax credit altogether and keep personal exemptions, though. Maybe keep the estate tax and tweak the corporate rate enough to make that revenue-neutral.

I agree with you as a matter of policy. I far prefer deductions to credits, which help make the code less progressive. But expansion of the CTC is a big piece of giving such a generous tax cut to middle class families (the cut that liberals pretend doesn't exist).

It's big for families with kids. The exemptions would mostly offset that, though, and they would apply to all families.

Offline steve dave

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #569 on: November 29, 2017, 02:59:34 PM »

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #570 on: November 29, 2017, 03:19:13 PM »
Middle class tax cuts are not coming out of this bill according to all data so far. You want the highest paying taxpayers to pay less...fine...but anyone hiding behind this is going to help the coal miner is ridiculous.

You're simply wrong. I'll prove it to you by running the numbers for a few basic situations.

Let's take the Smiths, your average middle class family somewhere in the Midwest. They've got three dependent children and a combined AGI of $100,000. Would you agree that's middle class? Let's assume the Smiths have $18,000 in itemized deductions. That's probably way too high for folks with that income in the Midwest (biggest itemized deductions are typically SALT, property tax, and mortgage interest, which track pretty well to income). But whatever, let's go with it. Might be closer to accurate if the Smiths live in a higher tax, higher property value state.

Under the current code for 2017, the Smiths have a taxable income of $61,750 (after deducting their 5 personal exemptions and itemized deductions from AGI). Taxes on that income, minus a $3,000 Child Tax Credit come to $5,330 (an effective rate of 5.3%).

Under the House Plan for 2018, the Smith now have a taxable of income of $76,000 (they lose their 5 personal exemptions worth $4,050 a piece, but they are now claiming a standard deduction of $24,000 instead of itemizing). Their marginal rate on that taxable income is reduced and they're getting a $4,800 CTC, resulting in a tax bill of $1,440 (effective rate 1.4%). That's a tax cut of $3,890 and a 3.9% rate reduction.

How about if the Smiths only bring home $80,000 AGI? Let's run the same exact numbers except we'll reduce their itemized deductions to $16,000 (which makes sense in our hypothetical even though, again, this is probably too high for itemized deductions at that income, especially in the Midwest).

They'll owe $2,630 under the current code, and -$960 under the House Bill (they owe negative tax and get money back due to partial refundability of CTC). That's a tax cut of $3,590.

Now I know what you're saying - those damned "breeders" aren't representative of a Midwest family. That's (1) bullshit, and (2) irrelevant. Let's rerun the same numbers with only 1 kid....

At 100k AGI, the Smiths pay $8,545 under current law, and $4,640 under House Plan. A tax cut of $3,905.

At 80k, the Smiths pay $5,845 under current law, and $2,240 under the House Plan. A tax cut of $3,605.

Under every scenario above, a gobsmacking tax cut. The only way to get to tax increases is if you get into itemized deductions vastly in excess of the newly doubled standard deduction - something that isn't going to be common for middle class incomes except maybe on the coasts.
Taking all this at your word even though the house plan isn't going to be anywhere close to the final plan...and personally I'd say it's not the upper middle class that needs the tax break so they can send Jr to baseball traveling teams...it's the lower side of the middle class that needs the help to you know...buy clothes.

Offline 8manpick

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #571 on: November 29, 2017, 03:22:18 PM »
@sd At least Trump is right about something I guess.

KSU-W, I don't actually disagree with most of your points on this, I just think your definition of middle class and average is either pretty far away from what mine is.  Most rich people don't think they are rich though.
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Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #572 on: November 29, 2017, 04:16:07 PM »
Taking all this at your word even though the house plan isn't going to be anywhere close to the final plan...and personally I'd say it's not the upper middle class that needs the tax break so they can send Jr to baseball traveling teams...it's the lower side of the middle class that needs the help to you know...buy clothes.

The Senate plan is actually more generous for me. Didn't run it for lower incomes. It sounds to me like you're expecting this reform to be less about cutting taxes and more about redistributing cash to folks who aren't paying much, if any, FIT to begin with. And that's understandable for a liberal, but this is supposed to be a tax cut - not another welfare program. Let's just stop with the "middle class aren't getting a tax cut" hogwash. This is yuuuuuge for most of the middle class.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #573 on: November 29, 2017, 04:28:56 PM »
How about owners of LLCs in the service field?

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Taxes (GOP 2017 edition)
« Reply #574 on: November 29, 2017, 04:35:33 PM »
How about owners of LLCs in the service field?

The pass-thru taxation is currently under discussion. It vertainly won't be tax free like what was attempted in KS. Question is how it will compare to corporate and personal rates.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.