Author Topic: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump  (Read 36905 times)

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Offline sys

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #475 on: April 03, 2020, 12:27:13 AM »
in general i find progressive messaging on healthcare to be superficial and tiresome.

clinton is right that the obamacare exchanges should be opened at this time.  yes, it is also true that health care costs too much in the united states. 
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #476 on: April 03, 2020, 12:36:27 AM »
maybe it's because politicians understand that the price of health insurance is due to the cost of health care.
I don't think that's it

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #477 on: April 03, 2020, 12:37:45 AM »
lol, okay man. You find the arguments to be "superficial and tiresome" but you agree at the very least that health care costs too much. Good stuff, sys.

Offline sys

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #478 on: April 03, 2020, 01:10:12 AM »
yeah, health care costs too much and therefore health insurance costs too much and therefore obamacare is bad and we should laugh at it instead of making sure it is available to people that need it right now doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #479 on: April 03, 2020, 01:30:51 AM »
In the arena of public health policy I think pursuing a policy that will help like 10-15 people is pretty bad and dumb. Very few people that just lost their incomes are going to be able to get on and pay $800+/mo for a high deductible plan. And telling people in the middle of a plague to “go to that website and pick the best plan for you and your website” is so callous and detached Hillary Sounds like Marie Antoinette, which would bring me to my next point but I don’t think I can post that.

Offline sys

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #480 on: April 03, 2020, 01:45:45 AM »
i admittedly don't know all of the details, but there are subsidies for low income purchasers.  and in the middle of a plague is precisely when it would be most beneficial to expand access to coverage, even if it is at a relatively high cost.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #481 on: April 03, 2020, 01:50:21 AM »
If we learn anything from all this, I hope it is that means testing everything in the middle of a disaster actively harms way more people than it helps and is actually an evil thing to do. A few simple answers would go a long way. I think all the enthusiasm for the SBA loan program is going to quickly be swallowed up by this problem (and also it being woefully too small),  it health care is just such an obvious case I’d rather you just acknowledge this one.

Offline sys

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #482 on: April 03, 2020, 01:53:25 AM »
if health care is just such an obvious case I’d rather you just acknowledge this one.

what do you want me to acknowledge?

you know that i think the us health care system is a giant crap show and also that i don't think m4a would do much to fix it.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #483 on: April 03, 2020, 03:12:18 AM »
I was making a point about means testing, but I don’t want to fight anything other than this hang over that is now taking me into its grasp.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #484 on: April 03, 2020, 04:38:23 AM »
if health care is just such an obvious case I’d rather you just acknowledge this one.

what do you want me to acknowledge?

you know that i think the us health care system is a giant crap show and also that i don't think m4a would do much to fix it.

I'm confused as to why you all progressives only favor m4a, or why you think there's only one m4a model. Or why you think any m4a model proposed is "superficial and tiresome," if you also think the current system is broken, and your only alternative is to go to a plan that already failed. Am I misunderstanding your usage of superficial, given you haven't broken down the failings of the various m4a plans? Am I misunderstanding your usage tiresome given that you haven't conveyed a proven alternative?

I just don't understand such a disdain for a plan that is a clear alternative to what we have that everyone agrees isn't close to the answer and is part of the reason we're in this current situation. Your view on any m4a plan seems to be dripping with some unsaid agenda. We are clearly at a throw crap against the wall and see what sticks situation when it comes to health care in this country, Obamacare didn't.

Also since you said you didn't remember the details of the subsidies of obamacare, again also an odd thing to acknowledge given you're calling other proposals superficial and tiresome, the subsidies essentially consisted of offering really bad plans, with high copays and deductibles, with limited benefits, for cheaper rates. Insurance companies claimed to be losing money on those plans, more people could afford to have an actual plan, but the issue of affording medication and copays and or coinsurance never got addressed. Obamacare failed because their was no way for the insurance companies to protect their profits and there were no price controls to make health care cheaper for the consumer. The only winner it produced was the administration, that could tout higher enrollment rates. That's not even getting into the newly imposed tax penalties for not being insured. It ultimately was a half baked compromise that was designed to not shake the tree of the health care industry, that can't work.

I'm not a m4a proponent, although I do favor a government takeover of the entire health care system, but I wouldn't dare denigrate it when comparing it to the status quo or a program that failed because it was too similar to the status quo.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #485 on: April 03, 2020, 06:01:16 AM »
If it were up to me we’d have NHS, but I am willing to compromise and offer up Medicare 4 All. It is sad my opponents won’t accept my reasonable offer and insist on ideological free market solutions that are too expensive and have proven they will never work.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #486 on: April 03, 2020, 06:25:52 AM »
Not an insurance expert by any means, but doesn’t it make more sense to potentially expand COBRA or Medicaid instead of new policies because folks might need them?

It makes a complete joke of insurance if the government forces companies to let people get a new policy at the very moment they need it. If that’s what you’re going to do the relief should just come directly from the government instead of filtering it through heavily federally subsidized insurance companies.

Offline chum1

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #487 on: April 03, 2020, 07:36:56 AM »
If there were 10 ventilators and 20 people in need, some people in this thread would think that 10 people should have ventilators. Other people in this thread would be like, "well, we don't have 20 ventilators, so I really don't care if 10 people die or 20 people die."

Incidentally, you can enroll in Obamacare at any time if you lose your job. That's a good thing, even if it's nowhere near the most desirable thing.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #488 on: April 03, 2020, 08:24:53 AM »
If there were 10 ventilators and 20 people in need, some people in this thread would think that 10 people should have ventilators. Other people in this thread would be like, "well, we don't have 20 ventilators, so I really don't care if 10 people die or 20 people die."

Incidentally, you can enroll in Obamacare at any time if you lose your job. That's a good thing, even if it's nowhere near the most desirable thing.

Your own hypothetical pre-supposes the solution is insufficient, which is the point. I don’t understand the second part of it at all.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #489 on: April 03, 2020, 08:34:47 AM »
His point is that a measure doesn't have to be sufficient to be helpful.

Offline chum1

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #490 on: April 03, 2020, 08:38:57 AM »
I like the discussion of this issue because it's like a microcosm of a larger Bernie/anti-Bernie approach.

Offline star seed 7

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #491 on: April 03, 2020, 08:41:08 AM »
I like the discussion of this issue because it's like a microcosm of a larger Bernie/anti-Bernie approach.

I'm surprised that they haven't started shouting that since lockdown doesn't save all lives that it's useless.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline 8manpick

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #492 on: April 03, 2020, 08:44:14 AM »
In the senate, Bernie has been a real pragmatic, compromising [redacted].  Bernie bros don't seem to think the same way.
:adios:

Offline michigancat

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #493 on: April 03, 2020, 09:18:13 AM »
lmao

https://twitter.com/cs_mcgowan/status/1245874533397135361

honestly it's crazy how politicians don't realize how impactful the cost of health insurance through the exchanges is
This is really all I meant. Politicians who support maintaining the status quo seems to acknowledge that it's really rough ridin' expensive for the average American and that's without when getting any health care. I mean I guess you probably wouldn't say something you support is really rough ridin' expensive even if it's better than nothing. But still

Offline Justwin

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #494 on: April 03, 2020, 09:18:36 AM »
if health care is just such an obvious case I’d rather you just acknowledge this one.

what do you want me to acknowledge?

you know that i think the us health care system is a giant crap show and also that i don't think m4a would do much to fix it.

What would you be in favor of for the health care system in the US?  I agree with everyone that the health care system in the US is terrible, but I am not a Medicare For All or NHS-style health care system proponent.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #495 on: April 03, 2020, 10:24:00 AM »
In the senate, Bernie has been a real pragmatic, compromising [redacted].  Bernie bros don't seem to think the same way.

He is part of democratic leadership! People claim really weird stuff about how he always “goes it alone” or “isn’t a team player” etc.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #496 on: April 03, 2020, 10:31:00 AM »
I like the discussion of this issue because it's like a microcosm of a larger Bernie/anti-Bernie approach.

I'm surprised that they haven't started shouting that since lockdown doesn't save all lives that it's useless.

it takes political capital to do anything. If your opening bid is woefully insufficient to the need, then it may actually be more harmful medium to long term than to continue to work for a sufficient, better long term solution. I am happy to discuss this instead of more crap posting from both sides.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #497 on: April 03, 2020, 10:40:53 AM »
I like the discussion of this issue because it's like a microcosm of a larger Bernie/anti-Bernie approach.

I'm surprised that they haven't started shouting that since lockdown doesn't save all lives that it's useless.

it takes political capital to do anything. If your opening bid is woefully insufficient to the need, then it may actually be more harmful medium to long term than to continue to work for a sufficient, better long term solution. I am happy to discuss this instead of more crap posting from both sides.

It's tough to discuss any issue that is even Bernie Sanders adjacent when it eventually devolves to this. When did Bernie and his lunatic fringe, as if all politicians don't have a lunatic fringe, become relevant in this particular conversation? Yet, here we go, again.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #498 on: April 03, 2020, 10:49:09 AM »
if health care is just such an obvious case I’d rather you just acknowledge this one.

what do you want me to acknowledge?

you know that i think the us health care system is a giant crap show and also that i don't think m4a would do much to fix it.

What would you be in favor of for the health care system in the US?  I agree with everyone that the health care system in the US is terrible, but I am not a Medicare For All or NHS-style health care system proponent.

Interested in why you think the US should continue to be a global outlier on this? If you care about covering more people or costs, I think we have to be honest that market based has been tried and failed.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #499 on: April 03, 2020, 10:57:10 AM »
if health care is just such an obvious case I’d rather you just acknowledge this one.

what do you want me to acknowledge?

you know that i think the us health care system is a giant crap show and also that i don't think m4a would do much to fix it.

What would you be in favor of for the health care system in the US?  I agree with everyone that the health care system in the US is terrible, but I am not a Medicare For All or NHS-style health care system proponent.

Interested in why you think the US should continue to be a global outlier on this? If you care about covering more people or costs, I think we have to be honest that market based has been tried and failed.

I favor a market based system with heavy price controls, on every aspect of the health care system. I would like to see an expanded need based medicare system, for those who can't buy into the private system.