For liberal pit'rs: The Silver Linings

[sys]

If he can figure out a way to tax the remittances, even like 10%, it would fully fund itself in 8 years (construction only).

a 10% tax on remittances to mexico would immediately end the practice of people sending remittances to mexico.

[star seed 7]

There are so many barriers to a border wall that it will never be built. You may see small stretches constructed but nothing substantial

[Emo EMAW]

If he can figure out a way to tax the remittances, even like 10%, it would fully fund itself in 8 years (construction only).

a 10% tax on remittances to mexico would immediately end the practice of people sending remittances to mexico.

Like you think they'd invent a work around?

[Phil Titola]

There are so many barriers to a border wall that it will never be built. You may see small stretches constructed but nothing substantial

A country w/o borders is not a country lib.

[star seed 7]

I'm not sure why anyone thinks we don't have borders

[Kat Kid]

I don't think the kind of people we'd want to come are walking their asses across the desert.  We need engineers and doctors, educated and trained folks like that.  The ditch diggers won't pay enough taxes to cover their share of the public services they'd consume.

It is perfectly reasonable to believe that the US should be encouraging more immigration among highly skilled workers or having a pathway for immigration through student visas.

Believing that "ditch diggers" don't pay enough taxes to "cover their share of the public services they'd consumer" requires some pretty amazing calculations of how to calculate public service consumption.

[Kat Kid]

I'm not sure why anyone thinks we don't have borders

They haven't ever been to or crossed one, why should they know what they are like?

[Tobias]

those people should get pak'd and binge watch border security: america's front line (Canadian one is prolly better, Australian one is terrible fake crap)

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

I don't think the kind of people we'd want to come are walking their asses across the desert.  We need engineers and doctors, educated and trained folks like that.  The ditch diggers won't pay enough taxes to cover their share of the public services they'd consume.

It is perfectly reasonable to believe that the US should be encouraging more immigration among highly skilled workers or having a pathway for immigration through student visas.

Believing that "ditch diggers" don't pay enough taxes to "cover their share of the public services they'd consumer" requires some pretty amazing calculations of how to calculate public service consumption.

Ditch digger with 4 kids in public school won't pay enough taxes in his lifetime to cover that cost, let alone the food assistance, refundable tax credits, etc.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Ditches are overrated, anyway.

[Tobias]

lets just bill everyone ala carte every year and kick the deadbeat buttholes out

[puniraptor]

I don't think the kind of people we'd want to come are walking their asses across the desert.  We need engineers and doctors, educated and trained folks like that.  The ditch diggers won't pay enough taxes to cover their share of the public services they'd consume.

It is perfectly reasonable to believe that the US should be encouraging more immigration among highly skilled workers or having a pathway for immigration through student visas.

Believing that "ditch diggers" don't pay enough taxes to "cover their share of the public services they'd consumer" requires some pretty amazing calculations of how to calculate public service consumption.

Ditch digger with 4 kids in public school won't pay enough taxes in his lifetime to cover that cost, let alone the food assistance, refundable tax credits, etc.

The kids pay it in the future.

[Rage Against the McKee]

The average salary for a ditch digger is more than $60,000, fwiw.

[Kat Kid]

I don't think the kind of people we'd want to come are walking their asses across the desert.  We need engineers and doctors, educated and trained folks like that.  The ditch diggers won't pay enough taxes to cover their share of the public services they'd consume.

It is perfectly reasonable to believe that the US should be encouraging more immigration among highly skilled workers or having a pathway for immigration through student visas.

Believing that "ditch diggers" don't pay enough taxes to "cover their share of the public services they'd consumer" requires some pretty amazing calculations of how to calculate public service consumption.

Ditch digger with 4 kids in public school won't pay enough taxes in his lifetime to cover that cost, let alone the food assistance, refundable tax credits, etc.

undocumented immigrants are ineligible for SNAP, most don't file tax returns and work off the books, what are you talking about?

[sys]

most don't file tax returns and work off the books.

do you have a reference for that?  my impression was that it is not true.

[renocat]

The average salary for a ditch digger is more than $60,000, fwiw.

I thought we are creating robotic ditch diggers.

[gatoveintisiete]

most don't file tax returns and work off the books.

do you have a reference for that?  my impression was that it is not true.

They have phony identities, social security numbers and drivers licenses.  There is  a underground industry for illegals and businesses that want to hire them that helps facilitate that.  Some do work off the books, but those are mainly the newbs.

[Mrs. Gooch]

I don't think the kind of people we'd want to come are walking their asses across the desert.  We need engineers and doctors, educated and trained folks like that.  The ditch diggers won't pay enough taxes to cover their share of the public services they'd consume.

It is perfectly reasonable to believe that the US should be encouraging more immigration among highly skilled workers or having a pathway for immigration through student visas.

Believing that "ditch diggers" don't pay enough taxes to "cover their share of the public services they'd consumer" requires some pretty amazing calculations of how to calculate public service consumption.

Ditch digger with 4 kids in public school won't pay enough taxes in his lifetime to cover that cost, let alone the food assistance, refundable tax credits, etc.

The kids pay it in the future.

You mean while their kids are using the services?

[Kat Kid]

most don't file tax returns and work off the books.

do you have a reference for that?  my impression was that it is not true.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/

the "work off the books" part is perhaps dubious in the sense that if there were any employer e-verify system it would actually clear up a lot of it because of how almost all businesses run payroll.  Unclear to me how much that would really move people completely under the table or not.

[Emo EMAW]

I know the calculation would be a got'damned nightmare, but I assume the people in the lowest tax bracket aren't paying their share, and the people in the highest tax bracket are paying more than their share.  I think I saw something that the top 1% pay like 37% of the taxes? 

"In 2013, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined."

I would even argue that the country in summation isn't paying their share if we are running a deficit. 

Unemployment still seems to be an issue.  I understand the stance that everyone who can find work is a net positive, but not if it means that someone who is already here legally loses out on that job.  I'm also concerned about driving down wages.  It's already impossible to support a family with income from unskilled work.

[Kat Kid]

I know the calculation would be a got'damned nightmare, but I assume the people in the lowest tax bracket aren't paying their share, and the people in the highest tax bracket are paying more than their share.  I think I saw something that the top 1% pay like 37% of the taxes? 

"In 2013, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined."

I would even argue that the country in summation isn't paying their share if we are running a deficit. 

Unemployment still seems to be an issue.  I understand the stance that everyone who can find work is a net positive, but not if it means that someone who is already here legally loses out on that job.  I'm also concerned about driving down wages.  It's already impossible to support a family with income from unskilled work.

We have tax brackets and lots of data that can tell us this pretty definitively, but "fair share" is a value judgement that people have to evaluate for themselves so you will never have any way to evaluate that without prioritizing some outside value.

Also, unemployment is very low, underemployment/automation is a looming medium & long term concern.

Look at the recovery of the US compared to any European country that tried more extreme forms of austerity and see all the evidence you need that with interest rates still low and the recovery weak, now is precisely the worst time to be a deficit hawk.  The same people screaming about deficit/debt told us that we would have double digit inflation by now (both people on this site and right wing intellectuals like Niall Ferguson, Arthur Laffer etc.)

[Kat Kid]

I know the calculation would be a got'damned nightmare, but I assume the people in the lowest tax bracket aren't paying their share, and the people in the highest tax bracket are paying more than their share.  I think I saw something that the top 1% pay like 37% of the taxes? 

"In 2013, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined."

I would even argue that the country in summation isn't paying their share if we are running a deficit. 

Unemployment still seems to be an issue.  I understand the stance that everyone who can find work is a net positive, but not if it means that someone who is already here legally loses out on that job.  I'm also concerned about driving down wages.  It's already impossible to support a family with income from unskilled work.

[Emo EMAW]

I know the calculation would be a got'damned nightmare, but I assume the people in the lowest tax bracket aren't paying their share, and the people in the highest tax bracket are paying more than their share.  I think I saw something that the top 1% pay like 37% of the taxes? 

"In 2013, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined."

I would even argue that the country in summation isn't paying their share if we are running a deficit. 

Unemployment still seems to be an issue.  I understand the stance that everyone who can find work is a net positive, but not if it means that someone who is already here legally loses out on that job.  I'm also concerned about driving down wages.  It's already impossible to support a family with income from unskilled work.

How is that relevant?

[Kat Kid]

Immigration isn't the only cause of depressed wages among workers, it might even be the result of the decline of union membership, lots of union members voted for Trump because they look around and see who the new competition is, it was capital that made those moves.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

I don't think the kind of people we'd want to come are walking their asses across the desert.  We need engineers and doctors, educated and trained folks like that.  The ditch diggers won't pay enough taxes to cover their share of the public services they'd consume.

It is perfectly reasonable to believe that the US should be encouraging more immigration among highly skilled workers or having a pathway for immigration through student visas.

Believing that "ditch diggers" don't pay enough taxes to "cover their share of the public services they'd consumer" requires some pretty amazing calculations of how to calculate public service consumption.

Ditch digger with 4 kids in public school won't pay enough taxes in his lifetime to cover that cost, let alone the food assistance, refundable tax credits, etc.

undocumented immigrants are ineligible for SNAP, most don't file tax returns and work off the books, what are you talking about?

LOL, that's pretty naive. They get head start and srs funding, they defintely get food assistance. It doesn't matter if they're ineligible when the policy at virtually every social department is, "it's not our job to loom into these things".

In any event, I'm not saying we shouldn't help these kids or that I'm opposed to immigration. It's just totally bogus to pretend that adding a bunch of poor people to the rolls won't cause more strain on the social support apparatus than it helps. That's a fantasy under the existing tax code.