Author Topic: Separation of Church and State??  (Read 4708 times)

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Offline michigancat

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2012, 07:02:00 PM »
Let's stick to the con-man who is trying to convince everyone that the founding father's were super into his God and his Jesus. 

yeah, dobbs got off pretty easy. EVEN IF HE'S A LITTLE BIT RIGHT IT MAKES YOU WONDER AMIRITE???????

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2012, 07:06:30 PM »
Let's stick to the con-man who is trying to convince everyone that the founding father's were super into his God and his Jesus. 

yeah, dobbs got off pretty easy. EVEN IF HE'S A LITTLE BIT RIGHT IT MAKES YOU WONDER AMIRITE???????

A little bit

Offline j-dub

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2012, 07:26:14 PM »
Barton is wrong. Unfortunately, it's easy to manipulate the majority of Evangelicals in this country. Philip Jenkins(an evangelical) wrote a book a few years back called The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind (that it has no mind), and Barton's BS is another example. Most of the founding fathers were deists. They believed in a clockmaker God who set the universe in motion and then watched everything unfold without manipulating history whatsoever. Which is clearly the opposite of the God-Man Savior of Christianity.. For example, Jefferson created his own bible by stripping the new testament of all spiritual/supernatural content.

Did anyone else take any Dr. Linder classes? He stressed that a civil religion has always subsisted in American life. It is at times similar to and sometimes informed by Judeo-Christian beliefs but it is certainly not any sort of Christian denomination. Linder said there must be a separation of church and state, but that religion and politics are impossible to separate. Like 8manpick said, the government shouldn't sanction any religious (regardless of religion) public prayer in schools, etc.. But individuals should have the right to bow their head if they choose.
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Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #78 on: August 14, 2012, 08:00:07 PM »
As a Christian, I think it is ridiculous for anyone to say this country should not have state and church separated. Atheists, I'm sorry that anyone would think you are immoral. In my opinion, religion and morality are not as correlated as everyone seems to think. It is unfair to assume so. But on that same note, to think that every Christian is dumb is pretty offensive too. It seems that as soon as I tell an atheist I'm a Christian, my opinion is no longer valid because they assume I have the IQ of someone in the middle ages. I know that Christians are not represented well, but a lot of that has to do with how the media portrays us. I just ask that you give us a fair chance in these types of debates.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 10:03:34 PM by Jakesie60 »

Offline 0.42

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #79 on: August 14, 2012, 08:42:54 PM »
As a Christian, I think it is ridiculous for anyone to say this country should not have state and church separated. Atheists, I'm sorry that anyone would think you are immoral. In my opinion, religion and morality are not as correlated as everyone seems to think. It is unfair to assume so. But on that same note, to think that every Christian is dumb is pretty offensive too. It seems that as soon as I tell an atheist I'm a Christian, my opinion is no longer valid because they assume I have the IQ of someone in the middle ages. I know that Christians are not represented well, but a lot of that has to do with how the media portrays us. I just ask that you guys us a fair chance in these types of debates.

This type of reasonable discussion has no place here :dubious:

Offline 8manpick

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #80 on: August 14, 2012, 09:13:15 PM »
But on that same note, to think that every Christian is dumb is pretty offensive too. It seems that as soon as I tell an atheist I'm a Christian, my opinion is no longer valid because they assume I have the IQ of someone in the middle ages. I know that Christians are not represented well, but a lot of that has to do with how the media portrays us. I just ask that you guys us a fair chance in these types of debates.

I don't think that, I think there are lots of smart Christians.  I just think they are wrong in this instance.  This is somewhat easier to convey in person than in the d-k dome, but it's hard to explain that you think the other person is wrong without implying that they are stupid, or at least having the other person think that you were trying to.
:adios:

Offline bubbles4ksu

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2012, 10:01:11 PM »
But on that same note, to think that every Christian is dumb is pretty offensive too. It seems that as soon as I tell an atheist I'm a Christian, my opinion is no longer valid because they assume I have the IQ of someone in the middle ages. I know that Christians are not represented well, but a lot of that has to do with how the media portrays us. I just ask that you guys us a fair chance in these types of debates.

I don't think that, I think there are lots of smart Christians.  I just think they are wrong in this instance.  This is somewhat easier to convey in person than in the d-k dome, but it's hard to explain that you think the other person is wrong without implying that they are stupid, or at least having the other person think that you were trying to.

sometimes i purposely tell people with whom i disagree that they are stupid because it takes less effort than a detailed argument does and a good dose of PI still has the potential to change minds. the d-k dome brings out the worst in a man.

Offline jmlynch1

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Offline AbeFroman

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2012, 10:54:32 PM »
Separation of church and state has come to mean something completely different than originally intended. It wasn't to take religion out of government, but to take government out of religion.

well then we should change that and get religion the eff out of government.
When everyone in government are atheists, the world will be an immoral shithole. We are on our way.

We don't need a bunch of atheists. We just need to quit basing laws off of personal beliefs and instead on actual research and hard facts that prove something is a public threat. Like the banning of gay marriage, weed, strip clubs in Missouri, etc.

Offline p1k3

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2012, 12:10:40 AM »
But on that same note, to think that every Christian is dumb is pretty offensive too. It seems that as soon as I tell an atheist I'm a Christian, my opinion is no longer valid because they assume I have the IQ of someone in the middle ages. I know that Christians are not represented well, but a lot of that has to do with how the media portrays us. I just ask that you guys us a fair chance in these types of debates.

I don't think that, I think there are lots of smart Christians.  I just think they are wrong in this instance.  This is somewhat easier to convey in person than in the d-k dome, but it's hard to explain that you think the other person is wrong without implying that they are stupid, or at least having the other person think that you were trying to.

I agree. There are a lot of very, very smart and open minded Christians (especially Ron Paul, a fundy of whom I've read 2 books and studied and stuff). One problem with Christianity is that most of them are perfectly OK with an endless occupation of middle eastern countries as long as brown Muslim people are being bombed and hundreds of thousands end up fleeing as refugees. They try and justify it because of "Sharia Law is taking over America....Muslims hate the US!! ( :runaway:)" which of course is a bull crap talking point proliferated by MSM lunatics like Bill O'reilly, Hannity, and Rush. They're so closed minded that they won't even read back to the 1953 coup when our relations with Iran went sour, and it was our fault. They'd rather just nuke the crap out of Tehran and lol as oil prices drop because they think that Muslims are impeding the largest religion in the world from growing even more.

I don't think this makes Christians stupid. I have some very good friends and family that are perfectly fine with this and they are humble, respectable Christians as well. I also realize many Christians don't believe in this idiocy, but the ones that do I'm not sure how they justify it. I have some idea but that's for another thread.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2012, 10:36:00 AM »
But on that same note, to think that every Christian is dumb is pretty offensive too. It seems that as soon as I tell an atheist I'm a Christian, my opinion is no longer valid because they assume I have the IQ of someone in the middle ages. I know that Christians are not represented well, but a lot of that has to do with how the media portrays us. I just ask that you guys us a fair chance in these types of debates.

I don't think that, I think there are lots of smart Christians.  I just think they are wrong in this instance.  This is somewhat easier to convey in person than in the d-k dome, but it's hard to explain that you think the other person is wrong without implying that they are stupid, or at least having the other person think that you were trying to.

I agree. There are a lot of very, very smart and open minded Christians (especially Ron Paul, a fundy of whom I've read 2 books and studied and stuff). One problem with Christianity is that most of them are perfectly OK with an endless occupation of middle eastern countries as long as brown Muslim people are being bombed and hundreds of thousands end up fleeing as refugees. They try and justify it because of "Sharia Law is taking over America....Muslims hate the US!! ( :runaway:)" which of course is a bull crap talking point proliferated by MSM lunatics like Bill O'reilly, Hannity, and Rush. They're so closed minded that they won't even read back to the 1953 coup when our relations with Iran went sour, and it was our fault. They'd rather just nuke the crap out of Tehran and lol as oil prices drop because they think that Muslims are impeding the largest religion in the world from growing even more.

I don't think this makes Christians stupid. I have some very good friends and family that are perfectly fine with this and they are humble, respectable Christians as well. I also realize many Christians don't believe in this idiocy, but the ones that do I'm not sure how they justify it. I have some idea but that's for another thread.

This and their insane opposition to people getting married has really made them look like clowns, even though the vast majority of them are just normal people.  It is a big group think on those issues though.

Offline Bookcat

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2012, 12:41:41 PM »
Separation of church and state has come to mean something completely different than originally intended. It wasn't to take religion out of government, but to take government out of religion.

well then we should change that and get religion the eff out of government.
When everyone in government are atheists, the world will be an immoral shithole. We are on our way.

When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion.- Abe Lincoln


and to think....
....and he's on the $5 dollar bill.

Right under the "In God We Trust"....  Fact is stranger than fiction.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2012, 01:15:59 PM »
Separation of church and state has come to mean something completely different than originally intended. It wasn't to take religion out of government, but to take government out of religion.

well then we should change that and get religion the eff out of government.
When everyone in government are atheists, the world will be an immoral shithole. We are on our way.

When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion.- Abe Lincoln


and to think....
....and he's on the $5 dollar bill.

Right under the "In God We Trust"....  Fact is stranger than fiction.

This is called the golden rule, pretty much central to most religions.

Offline puniraptor

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2012, 01:41:18 PM »
did abe lincoln really say that? god what a pimp

Offline p1k3

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2012, 01:49:37 PM »
Separation of church and state has come to mean something completely different than originally intended. It wasn't to take religion out of government, but to take government out of religion.

well then we should change that and get religion the eff out of government.
When everyone in government are atheists, the world will be an immoral shithole. We are on our way.

When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion.- Abe Lincoln


and to think....
....and he's on the $5 dollar bill.

Right under the "In God We Trust"....  Fact is stranger than fiction.

This is called the golden rule, pretty much central to most religions.

Except Republicans who booooo'd the golden rule at a debate when a true Christian (Ron Paul) brought it up.

Offline slobber

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2012, 01:53:52 PM »
did abe lincoln really say that? god what a pimp
I think he was quoting someone else when he said it. However, I also think he was saying it in reference to how he viewed his own religious feelings, which were very nearly atheism. If somebody read Lincoln's Life or whatever it is, they can confirm. I don't think he ever said he was an atheist, but he was close to it.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #91 on: August 15, 2012, 02:08:15 PM »
did abe lincoln really say that? god what a pimp
I think he was quoting someone else when he said it. However, I also think he was saying it in reference to how he viewed his own religious feelings, which were very nearly atheism. If somebody read Lincoln's Life or whatever it is, they can confirm. I don't think he ever said he was an atheist, but he was close to it.

You can find hundreds of Abe Lincoln quotes where he references God and the Bible.

Offline slobber

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #92 on: August 15, 2012, 02:11:58 PM »
did abe lincoln really say that? god what a pimp
I think he was quoting someone else when he said it. However, I also think he was saying it in reference to how he viewed his own religious feelings, which were very nearly atheism. If somebody read Lincoln's Life or whatever it is, they can confirm. I don't think he ever said he was an atheist, but he was close to it.

You can find hundreds of Abe Lincoln quotes where he references God and the Bible.
Yes, you can. The overall view that I have of Lincoln is that he was not a strong believer of Christianity, specifically that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #93 on: August 15, 2012, 02:19:14 PM »
did abe lincoln really say that? god what a pimp
I think he was quoting someone else when he said it. However, I also think he was saying it in reference to how he viewed his own religious feelings, which were very nearly atheism. If somebody read Lincoln's Life or whatever it is, they can confirm. I don't think he ever said he was an atheist, but he was close to it.

You can find hundreds of Abe Lincoln quotes where he references God and the Bible.
Yes, you can. The overall view that I have of Lincoln is that he was not a strong believer of Christianity, specifically that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

He certainly was not a zealot, but he seemed to believe in God.

Offline 06wildcat

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #94 on: August 15, 2012, 04:40:39 PM »
did abe lincoln really say that? god what a pimp
I think he was quoting someone else when he said it. However, I also think he was saying it in reference to how he viewed his own religious feelings, which were very nearly atheism. If somebody read Lincoln's Life or whatever it is, they can confirm. I don't think he ever said he was an atheist, but he was close to it.

You can find hundreds of Abe Lincoln quotes where he references God and the Bible.
Yes, you can. The overall view that I have of Lincoln is that he was not a strong believer of Christianity, specifically that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

He certainly was not a zealot, but he seemed to believe in God.

One can believe in God and not Jesus Christ.

Offline j-dub

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #95 on: August 15, 2012, 07:09:00 PM »
Separation of church and state has come to mean something completely different than originally intended. It wasn't to take religion out of government, but to take government out of religion.

well then we should change that and get religion the eff out of government.
When everyone in government are atheists, the world will be an immoral shithole. We are on our way.

When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion.- Abe Lincoln


and to think....
....and he's on the $5 dollar bill.

Right under the "In God We Trust"....  Fact is stranger than fiction.

that was added in the 50's i believe. same with "under God" in the pledge.. the 50's were fairly detrimental to the separation..
"I started calling him John during the game, cause he was rocking it like No. 7 -- like Elway," Harper said."

Offline Bookcat

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #96 on: August 15, 2012, 09:53:32 PM »
did abe lincoln really say that? god what a pimp
I think he was quoting someone else when he said it. However, I also think he was saying it in reference to how he viewed his own religious feelings, which were very nearly atheism. If somebody read Lincoln's Life or whatever it is, they can confirm. I don't think he ever said he was an atheist, but he was close to it.

You can find hundreds of Abe Lincoln quotes where he references God and the Bible.
Yes, you can. The overall view that I have of Lincoln is that he was not a strong believer of Christianity, specifically that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

He certainly was not a zealot, but he seemed to believe in God.

then he wouldn't have stood a chance in such a progressive group of thinkers like the new Republitard Party.....

Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #97 on: August 18, 2012, 08:47:35 AM »
Barton is wrong. Unfortunately, it's easy to manipulate the majority of Evangelicals in this country. Philip Jenkins(an evangelical) wrote a book a few years back called The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind (that it has no mind), and Barton's BS is another example. Most of the founding fathers were deists. They believed in a clockmaker God who set the universe in motion and then watched everything unfold without manipulating history whatsoever. Which is clearly the opposite of the God-Man Savior of Christianity.. For example, Jefferson created his own bible by stripping the new testament of all spiritual/supernatural content.

Did anyone else take any Dr. Linder classes? He stressed that a civil religion has always subsisted in American life. It is at times similar to and sometimes informed by Judeo-Christian beliefs but it is certainly not any sort of Christian denomination. Linder said there must be a separation of church and state, but that religion and politics are impossible to separate. Like 8manpick said, the government shouldn't sanction any religious (regardless of religion) public prayer in schools, etc.. But individuals should have the right to bow their head if they choose.

I haven't had time to read this thread until today - but I was glad someone posted this.  Majority of the founding fathers being deists is all that needs to be known.

On a personal note, Atheism is as foolish as any other doctrine. To believe in nothing is a belief. Now, I would say agnosticism is the most intellectually rational decision. To admit we do not know is probably the most honest and wise claim that could be made. But, faith is not based on what is wise. Faith can be based on what serves humanity the best. I would say any religion that claims that all men are created equal in the image of a perfect God is a good one. Too bad it couldn't stop there.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline Institutional Control

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Re: Separation of Church and State??
« Reply #98 on: October 14, 2019, 01:17:12 PM »
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