Author Topic: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition  (Read 41577 times)

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Offline sys

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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #150 on: June 26, 2016, 02:29:23 PM »
i think it's a much more scary situation than that. right-wing leaders in Finland, Austria, the Netherlands, France and Hungary are already calling on in/out referendums in those countries.

oh yeah, it's also not hard to see how it could be a disaster, long-term.  i agree with you that the contagion danger is in the rise of nationalism among the large established nation-states not in a rise among the separatists championing microstates for intrastate nationalities.
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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #151 on: June 26, 2016, 03:36:23 PM »
I think most of what you said is certainly possible.  I don't know how you square 1 with 2 tho, either the EU was important or it wasn't--> there is either a bunch of economic fallout and UK reclaims its "sovereignty" or there is very little disruption substantively to the trade agreements.

The EU was important when it was about creating an economic state. It has devolved into the UN's Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) cousin. It advances a leftist-progressive-fascist political agenda, and has abandoned free markets and the unified military.  Economically, many of the things it originally stood for pre-existed, like free trade. Adopting what is essentially the UCC across Europe and other civil business code was/is great. Requiring germany and the uk to repeatedly bail out worthless social welfare states who refuse to adopt 1st world economic policy is absurd. Imparting social policy upon its members is outrageous. It needs to go back to what it originally stood for, or it will and should fall apart.
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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #152 on: June 26, 2016, 03:37:47 PM »
If Muslim immigration is so bad it starts causing the EU to fall apart, we probably should look really hard at this Muslim thing again.
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #153 on: June 26, 2016, 04:15:50 PM »
I think most of what you said is certainly possible.  I don't know how you square 1 with 2 tho, either the EU was important or it wasn't--> there is either a bunch of economic fallout and UK reclaims its "sovereignty" or there is very little disruption substantively to the trade agreements.

i mean, it really just depends entirely on what agreements replace it.  i kinda agree with fsd that the new structures will pretty much keep almost all of the trade continuity and probably also most of the movement of labor/exchange of social services.

My biggest fear is that European separatists start to fracture all the nation states at the same time that the international institutions fail and that it starts with the UK (Scotland, Northern Ireland) then spreads to Spain (Catalonia, Gibraltar, basque) then to Italy (North/South) etc.

i think your fear confuses cause and effect.  i would also conjecture that scotland would only leave the uk if they are guaranteed entry into the eu, so that would actually strengthen the eu.  i think your other proposed fractures would also strengthen the eu (small states need the common market more than large states. really, the idea of splitting off these little micro nationalities into states is only viable within a framework like the eu).

best case scenario, the uk moves to eu lite by another name, the continental members remain and the eu becomes more responsive to member states complaints.  it's not hard to see this being a net positive long-term.

1) under my scenario several big states have already dropped out (France likely next because pissed at Germany)

2) if nation states fracture, and the EU does not have as much sway, what happens when Spain decides that Basque independence is South Carolina nullification? 



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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #154 on: June 26, 2016, 04:19:09 PM »
Fractured nation states exist, and have existed for centuries. The EU can't possibly claim to have solved that.
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #155 on: June 26, 2016, 04:21:24 PM »
I think most of what you said is certainly possible.  I don't know how you square 1 with 2 tho, either the EU was important or it wasn't--> there is either a bunch of economic fallout and UK reclaims its "sovereignty" or there is very little disruption substantively to the trade agreements.

The EU was important when it was about creating an economic state. It has devolved into the UN's Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) cousin. It advances a leftist-progressive-fascist political agenda, and has abandoned free markets and the unified military.  Economically, many of the things it originally stood for pre-existed, like free trade. Adopting what is essentially the UCC across Europe and other civil business code was/is great. Requiring germany and the uk to repeatedly bail out worthless social welfare states who refuse to adopt 1st world economic policy is absurd. Imparting social policy upon its members is outrageous. It needs to go back to what it originally stood for, or it will and should fall apart.

I don't really think Greece got much of a bailout.  They are on the hook for an enormous sum still.

The weirdest part for me is the UK seemingly already had the best of both worlds, the EU work permits, but not Schengen and their own currency.  I just don't understand what sovereignty was threatened.


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Offline wetwillie

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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #156 on: June 26, 2016, 04:25:44 PM »
I think most of what you said is certainly possible.  I don't know how you square 1 with 2 tho, either the EU was important or it wasn't--> there is either a bunch of economic fallout and UK reclaims its "sovereignty" or there is very little disruption substantively to the trade agreements.

The EU was important when it was about creating an economic state. It has devolved into the UN's Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) cousin. It advances a leftist-progressive-fascist political agenda, and has abandoned free markets and the unified military.  Economically, many of the things it originally stood for pre-existed, like free trade. Adopting what is essentially the UCC across Europe and other civil business code was/is great. Requiring germany and the uk to repeatedly bail out worthless social welfare states who refuse to adopt 1st world economic policy is absurd. Imparting social policy upon its members is outrageous. It needs to go back to what it originally stood for, or it will and should fall apart.

I don't really think Greece got much of a bailout.  They are on the hook for an enormous sum still.

The weirdest part for me is the UK seemingly already had the best of both worlds, the EU work permits, but not Schengen and their own currency.  I just don't understand what sovereignty was threatened.


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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #157 on: June 26, 2016, 04:26:46 PM »
I think most of what you said is certainly possible.  I don't know how you square 1 with 2 tho, either the EU was important or it wasn't--> there is either a bunch of economic fallout and UK reclaims its "sovereignty" or there is very little disruption substantively to the trade agreements.

The EU was important when it was about creating an economic state. It has devolved into the UN's Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) cousin. It advances a leftist-progressive-fascist political agenda, and has abandoned free markets and the unified military.  Economically, many of the things it originally stood for pre-existed, like free trade. Adopting what is essentially the UCC across Europe and other civil business code was/is great. Requiring germany and the uk to repeatedly bail out worthless social welfare states who refuse to adopt 1st world economic policy is absurd. Imparting social policy upon its members is outrageous. It needs to go back to what it originally stood for, or it will and should fall apart.

I don't really think Greece got much of a bailout.  They are on the hook for an enormous sum still.

The weirdest part for me is the UK seemingly already had the best of both worlds, the EU work permits, but not Schengen and their own currency.  I just don't understand what sovereignty was threatened.


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The ability to control how many Brown people came into their country via EU countries.

They already had border controls!


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Offline wetwillie

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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #158 on: June 26, 2016, 04:29:35 PM »
I think most of what you said is certainly possible.  I don't know how you square 1 with 2 tho, either the EU was important or it wasn't--> there is either a bunch of economic fallout and UK reclaims its "sovereignty" or there is very little disruption substantively to the trade agreements.

The EU was important when it was about creating an economic state. It has devolved into the UN's Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) cousin. It advances a leftist-progressive-fascist political agenda, and has abandoned free markets and the unified military.  Economically, many of the things it originally stood for pre-existed, like free trade. Adopting what is essentially the UCC across Europe and other civil business code was/is great. Requiring germany and the uk to repeatedly bail out worthless social welfare states who refuse to adopt 1st world economic policy is absurd. Imparting social policy upon its members is outrageous. It needs to go back to what it originally stood for, or it will and should fall apart.

I don't really think Greece got much of a bailout.  They are on the hook for an enormous sum still.

The weirdest part for me is the UK seemingly already had the best of both worlds, the EU work permits, but not Schengen and their own currency.  I just don't understand what sovereignty was threatened.


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The ability to control how many Brown people came into their country via EU countries.

They already had border controls!


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I thought EU member countries could move freely to other countries?
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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #159 on: June 26, 2016, 04:44:21 PM »
The "human rights" court, as a starter, usurped sovereignty.  the ability of these countries to make their own laws (i.e., govern) was being diminished at an increasing rate.
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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #160 on: June 26, 2016, 04:52:51 PM »
The ability to control how many Brown people came into their country via EU countries.

more about controlling the number of eastern europeans, muslim refugees second.  they already have a font of generic brown people with the right to immigrate due to the commonwealth.
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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #162 on: June 26, 2016, 05:17:50 PM »
lol Boris is already distancing himself from actually implementing Leave.

https://twitter.com/xtophercook/status/747178171003437056

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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #163 on: June 26, 2016, 05:18:01 PM »
@wetwillie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

Well hot damn.  I'm starting to think these old British people got hoodwinked.
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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #165 on: June 26, 2016, 05:38:02 PM »
So, is it safe to say this Boris guy wanted to gain popularity by being pro-leave, but didn't think it'd actually happen and doesn't want to actually deal with it?
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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #166 on: June 26, 2016, 05:40:49 PM »
lol Boris is already distancing himself from actually implementing Leave.

https://twitter.com/xtophercook/status/747178171003437056

Wait...they want the benefits but don't want the cons?

Well, hell, no wonder that won. I'd like to vote for that, too.

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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #167 on: June 26, 2016, 06:01:24 PM »
So, is it safe to say this Boris guy wanted to gain popularity by being pro-leave, but didn't think it'd actually happen and doesn't want to actually deal with it?

Lots of people think that Cameron resigned quickly to ensure that Boris had to deal with all the fallout/details.  They are nemeses.


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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #168 on: June 26, 2016, 10:48:50 PM »
So, is it safe to say this Boris guy wanted to gain popularity by being pro-leave, but didn't think it'd actually happen and doesn't want to actually deal with it?

Lots of people think that Cameron resigned quickly to ensure that Boris had to deal with all the fallout/details.  They are nemeses.


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As he should. eff Boris.

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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #169 on: June 26, 2016, 11:22:47 PM »
So, is it safe to say this Boris guy wanted to gain popularity by being pro-leave, but didn't think it'd actually happen and doesn't want to actually deal with it?

Lots of people think that Cameron resigned quickly to ensure that Boris had to deal with all the fallout/details.  They are nemeses.


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He's pretty vocal that he doesn't want them triggering Article 50 until he leaves.

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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #170 on: June 27, 2016, 10:47:24 AM »
The UK isn't leaving.  They'll start negotiations and realize that not much will change and they will stay in the EU.

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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #171 on: June 27, 2016, 11:18:14 AM »
Man the Neo Statists in residence may get to celebrate after all. 

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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #172 on: June 27, 2016, 11:33:28 AM »
Just so we are all on the same page, who are the neo statists in residence?
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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #173 on: June 27, 2016, 12:10:30 PM »
@wetwillie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

Yeah, this is what kills me about this whole thing, The UK hasn't been part of the Schengen Area, like ever, and have control over their borders, anyone who has traveled in the Chunel will see that in process (most people thing it's just some security check, it kinda is, but really it's an entry into the Schengen Area process), so wtf are they trying to do? Oh, be a bunch of racist a-holes. Ah, Ok.

lol Boris is already distancing himself from actually implementing Leave.

https://twitter.com/xtophercook/status/747178171003437056

Wait...they want the benefits but don't want the cons?

Well, hell, no wonder that won. I'd like to vote for that, too.

Pretty much. I guess. IDK, shows that Brits can be just a stupid as us. Like father like son. Or son like father. Any rate, not wanting to be part of the largest single market (the EU) is the stupidest thing you could wish upon yourself. But I bet they don't end up leaving, and things get updated and amended. So I guess small victories for the UK.
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Re: smoke your cigars...european realignment edition
« Reply #174 on: June 27, 2016, 12:21:45 PM »
Can we keep the twitter anecdotes and Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) conjecture concerning the same in the Facebook thread?

K thx
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