Author Topic: Gender Issues  (Read 43232 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 63767
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #650 on: April 02, 2021, 05:19:54 PM »
Hell yeah, git-r-done
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Online michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53674
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #651 on: April 02, 2021, 05:21:34 PM »
Gender isn't only a social construct

I'm sure there are entire volumes written on this, but my understanding is that it IS one's perception of how they fit into a social construct. (As opposed to the concept of biological sex. As always, the law lags behind in this regard.)

Put me in the camp of "what business of mine is it how individuals want and/or feel compelled to define themselves?" I could not care less, and any freedom loving American ought to feel the same. If you disagree with that statement, you're not a true patriot.

do you think the state was right to let the dad dress up that girl as a boy? (in the "Save James" case)


also:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/old-school-parenting-modern-day-families/201907/time-move-beyond-gender-is-socially-constructed


Offline BIG APPLE CAT

  • smelly poor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 6331
  • slide rule enthusiast
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #652 on: April 02, 2021, 05:26:58 PM »
I’m with spracs on this one. Its nobody’s business. I also appreciate the feigned outrage over the fair competition in women’s sports. I’d bet dollars to donuts the lawmakers screaming the loudest about defending the fairness of women’s sports couldn’t name 5 current WNBA players (or any other professional women athletes for that matter) bc they don’t actually give a flying eff about women’s sports but I think most people know that’s not what motivates them

Offline Spracne

  • Point Plank'r
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *
  • Posts: 20946
  • Scholar/Gentleman, But Super Earthy/Organic
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #653 on: April 02, 2021, 05:27:12 PM »
Gender isn't only a social construct

I'm sure there are entire volumes written on this, but my understanding is that it IS one's perception of how they fit into a social construct. (As opposed to the concept of biological sex. As always, the law lags behind in this regard.)

Put me in the camp of "what business of mine is it how individuals want and/or feel compelled to define themselves?" I could not care less, and any freedom loving American ought to feel the same. If you disagree with that statement, you're not a true patriot.

do you think the state was right to let the dad dress up that girl as a boy? (in the "Save James" case)


also:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/old-school-parenting-modern-day-families/201907/time-move-beyond-gender-is-socially-constructed

I don't feel a need to take a stance on it. I can say that the record in a court case does not always reflect reality, so I would be reluctant to even venture to form an opinion.

Also, I skimmed that article and did not find it very edifying. I stand by my true patriots stance. If freedom is to mean anything, it must include the freedom to define oneself.

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15097
    • View Profile
Gender Issues
« Reply #654 on: April 02, 2021, 06:35:29 PM »
If gender is more than how someone identifies relative to societal constructs, does that mean someone can objectively get their gender wrong (like people who mistakenly believe they are dead)?

Offline Cire

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 19680
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #655 on: April 02, 2021, 06:49:49 PM »
If gender is more than how someone identifies relative to societal constructs, does that mean someone can objectively get their gender wrong (like people who mistakenly believe they are dead)?
I think you’re confusing gender with sexual preference


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15097
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #656 on: April 02, 2021, 06:51:53 PM »
If gender is more than how someone identifies relative to societal constructs, does that mean someone can objectively get their gender wrong (like people who mistakenly believe they are dead)?
I think you’re confusing gender with sexual preference


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I was referencing the opinion piece Mich posted.

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #657 on: April 02, 2021, 09:33:59 PM »
The difference is that Dolezal was perceived to be doing the switch as a grift and she could pass as a white woman whenever it was convenient. For instance she had white listed as her race on her drivers license. Tough to claim that you're black when you can't even list it on your drivers license. She was cosplaying. I think the fact that she was the NAACP chapter president made it noteworthy.

If she was cosplaying a transwoman while working for the Trevor Project then was publicly caught also presenting as a cisgender male, she would be dragged just as much.

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 40472
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #658 on: April 03, 2021, 12:37:19 AM »
The difference is that Dolezal was perceived to be doing the switch as a grift and she could pass as a white woman whenever it was convenient. For instance she had white listed as her race on her drivers license. Tough to claim that you're black when you can't even list it on your drivers license. She was cosplaying. I think the fact that she was the NAACP chapter president made it noteworthy.

that simply speaks to how others perceived dolezal.  and if i'm not mistaken there are still states where trans individuals can not receive id that corresponds to their preferred gender.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #659 on: April 03, 2021, 09:45:57 AM »
The difference is that Dolezal was perceived to be doing the switch as a grift and she could pass as a white woman whenever it was convenient. For instance she had white listed as her race on her drivers license. Tough to claim that you're black when you can't even list it on your drivers license. She was cosplaying. I think the fact that she was the NAACP chapter president made it noteworthy.

that simply speaks to how others perceived dolezal.  and if i'm not mistaken there are still states where trans individuals can not receive id that corresponds to their preferred gender.

It speaks to how others see her because it's how she lived her life, she was sometimes white sometimes black. I suppose if there was some racial equivalent of gender fluidity/nonconforming then she could claim that, but there isn't and she didn't. Once she got exposed she didn't try to make a claim that she's actually black, she admitted to what she did wrong.

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15097
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #660 on: April 03, 2021, 10:10:04 AM »
To Trim’s original question, there is at least some scholarship on the idea of being “transracial.”

Still far less accepted (and much rarer) than transgender identification.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/06/12/nyu-professor-naacp-rachel-dolezal/

Quote
But NYU sociology professor Ann Morning told CBS2’s Jiang that just like some people are transgender, others may be trans-racial – identifying more with a race other than their own.

Dolezal grew up with four adopted black siblings, and was briefly married to a black man.

“We’re getting more and more used to the idea that people’s racial affiliation and identity and sense of belonging can change, or can vary, with different circumstances,” Morning said.

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #661 on: April 03, 2021, 10:28:18 AM »
To Trim’s original question, there is at least some scholarship on the idea of being “transracial.”

Still far less accepted (and much rarer) than transgender identification.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/06/12/nyu-professor-naacp-rachel-dolezal/

Quote
But NYU sociology professor Ann Morning told CBS2’s Jiang that just like some people are transgender, others may be trans-racial – identifying more with a race other than their own.

Dolezal grew up with four adopted black siblings, and was briefly married to a black man.

“We’re getting more and more used to the idea that people’s racial affiliation and identity and sense of belonging can change, or can vary, with different circumstances,” Morning said.

Where's the "scholarship," it certainly isn't in that quote or article, that's a simple opinion, that's parsed with "may be."

Look at Dolezal's answers to the questions there, she's cagey because she doesn't have actual answers, while we don't understand "I've always felt like I was a boy" it is in fact an answer.
"Julia, you have indicated you're a female but we've found you were born a male named Jerry, can you explain that."
"What? I don't understand the question. I don't acknowledge the term female, I'm a chick"

Online Trim

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 41955
  • Pfizer PLUS Moderna and now Pfizer Bivalent
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #662 on: April 03, 2021, 11:15:07 AM »
Dolezal's grift aspects makes her a bad example, but here was the article I looked at yesterday that had the most about both her specific history and the skepticism about her along with stacking her up to transgender people.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/25/rachel-dolezal-not-going-stoop-apologise-grovel

Online Trim

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 41955
  • Pfizer PLUS Moderna and now Pfizer Bivalent
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #663 on: April 03, 2021, 11:16:32 AM »
So then trying to find a different comparison, I've already looked up the contrasts between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria - I'm learning all kinds of new lingo! - and it still reads as somewhat circular.  The distinction seems to come down to that on one hand people are seeing something false and that it's thus a mental illness, but as to gender they know their true gender identity and thus they have a natural dissatisfaction with the physical parts not matching.

I'm not seeing anything that points me to the natural internal mechanism by which any of us "feel" our gender identity in a way distinct from "knowing" it being based on physical parts.  There's just a presumption that such mechanism (?) exists as to gender, but not as to race or other non-gender-related physical attributes.

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15097
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #664 on: April 03, 2021, 11:37:20 AM »
To Trim’s original question, there is at least some scholarship on the idea of being “transracial.”

Still far less accepted (and much rarer) than transgender identification.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/06/12/nyu-professor-naacp-rachel-dolezal/

Quote
But NYU sociology professor Ann Morning told CBS2’s Jiang that just like some people are transgender, others may be trans-racial – identifying more with a race other than their own.

Dolezal grew up with four adopted black siblings, and was briefly married to a black man.

“We’re getting more and more used to the idea that people’s racial affiliation and identity and sense of belonging can change, or can vary, with different circumstances,” Morning said.

Where's the "scholarship," it certainly isn't in that quote or article, that's a simple opinion, that's parsed with "may be."

Well I certainly didn’t mean to suggest there were peer reviewed studies if that’s your conception of scholarship. It’s the viewpoint of a sociology professor who has surveyed the landscape and thinks though these kinds of issues a lot more than you or I. Obviously it’s a very new concept in comparison to being transgender.

Offline Kat Kid

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 20444
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #665 on: April 04, 2021, 10:01:11 AM »
I don’t think people being furries or really in to anime is evidence of being trans-animal or trans-racial.

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15097
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #666 on: April 04, 2021, 10:16:33 AM »
I don’t follow your point. I don’t think drag queens are evidence of people being transgender either.

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #667 on: April 05, 2021, 03:10:11 PM »

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #668 on: April 05, 2021, 03:31:39 PM »
Other stuff they passed and were signed, I do agree that the one he vetoed is worse.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/arkansas-governor-signs-bill-allowing-medical-workers-to-refuse-treatment-to-lgbtq-people

I was more shocked at the language he used.

The bill he did sign, allowing health care workers to refuse to treat someone they deem lgtbq, is abhorrent. However, it has zero chance in holding up in court. He mentioned the bill he vetoed having an adverse effect on the metal health of children but he signs this bill risking the physical and mental health of kids and adults. It's weird.

Offline dal9

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1782
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #669 on: June 22, 2021, 09:05:53 PM »
saw this thing about a women's pro soccer player coming out as a man (apparently the second one)...why does he get to keep playing in the league exactly then?  hormone levels?