Author Topic: Gender Issues  (Read 20749 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 9975
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2016, 02:16:28 PM »

Which leads to another flaw - where on the gender spectrum do LGBT fall?  They do not get included? Why?


No, this is not a flaw. This chart is for gender only, not sexual orientation or sexual attraction.

You can be anywhere on this chart and still have any sexual orientation/attraction. For instance there might be a female (6,1) who is attracted to males (heterosexual) or there might be a female (6,1) who is attracted to females (homosexual) and there is a spectrum inbetween.

To take sexual orientation into account, you would need to make the chart into a 3D or 4D chart with the spectrum of sexual orientation on the third (into out of the page) and fourth dimension. Like this chart would need to be incorporated as the third & fourth dimensions.

Offline star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 56170
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2016, 02:28:43 PM »
Bi-curious is shaped like 2 weiners touching tip to tip :Keke:
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline Institutional Control

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 12832
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2016, 02:35:40 PM »
Why is bicurious in parenthesis and the rest aren't?

Offline Mrs. Gooch

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 9975
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2016, 02:49:09 PM »
Bi-curious is shaped like 2 weiners touching tip to tip :Keke:

Looks more like 2 wieners attached to the same guy to me.

Offline Emo EMAW

  • PCKK7DC Survivor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *******
  • Posts: 17891
  • Unrepentant traditional emobro
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2016, 03:01:24 PM »
Mrs Gooch knows a lot about this stuff, esp for Wichita.

Offline mocat

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 33971
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2016, 03:02:03 PM »
Bi-curious is shaped like 2 weiners touching tip to tip :Keke:

Looks more like 2 wieners attached to the same guy to me.

yes

Online Fedor

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1363
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #56 on: May 06, 2016, 03:15:50 PM »

Which leads to another flaw - where on the gender spectrum do LGBT fall?  They do not get included? Why?


No, this is not a flaw. This chart is for gender only, not sexual orientation or sexual attraction.

You can be anywhere on this chart and still have any sexual orientation/attraction. For instance there might be a female (6,1) who is attracted to males (heterosexual) or there might be a female (6,1) who is attracted to females (homosexual) and there is a spectrum inbetween.

To take sexual orientation into account, you would need to make the chart into a 3D or 4D chart with the spectrum of sexual orientation on the third (into out of the page) and fourth dimension. Like this chart would need to be incorporated as the third & fourth dimensions.

You are positing there is someone who is 80% hetero and 20% homo?  How does that present?  I (male) have sex with 80% females but 20% of the time men?  That would be bi-sexual.  This graph would also suggest that you can be super attracted to the opposite sex or very minutely attracted.  How?  There is no degree of attraction, it is binary, attracted to males - yes or no, attracted to females - yes or no.  :ohno:.  You are piling fallacies on top of fallacies and never fully justifying any of it.  Btw Depth would be third dimension both into and out of the page, 4th dimension is time.  Although introducing time would serve the purpose of further muddying the debate, which may be of use to you.

Back to gender, there are people who identify as different species, a cat for instance, is that gender or mental illness?  There is a male who identifies as a female.  And very specifically a 7-year old female (4th dimension). Gender or mental illness?

How about this model for gender and/or orientation et al;
Homo Sapiens are a dimorphous species; with both forms necessary for reproduction.  The vast majority of the species is oriented to promote reproduction, i.e. hetero.  Unfortunately, nature is not perfect and there are occasional accidents of brain chemistry, genetics, mental health, personality disorder, personal choice or other unexplained reasons where individuals do not fall into the majority.  Sometimes bad people are not able to accept those who are different, but they should because almost always it is not their choice*.

*In the effort to make people feel better about not fitting into the dimorphous model, because feelings, many new terms and terrible graphical representations have been invented.
I was wrong and I apologize. - michigancat 8/22/14

Online Fedor

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1363
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2016, 03:23:39 PM »
Bi-curious is shaped like 2 weiners touching tip to tip :Keke:

Looks more like 2 wieners attached to the same guy to me.
Could be scissoring?
I was wrong and I apologize. - michigancat 8/22/14

Offline Mrs. Gooch

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 9975
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #58 on: May 06, 2016, 03:36:07 PM »
Yeah, the 3rd dimension would be in and out of the paper and the fourth dimension would be another dimension. (I guess time if you are trying to relate this 4D chart to the real 3 dimensional world; but actually these are just 4 dimensions that really have nothing to do with the 4 dimensions we are perceiving like height, width, depth, and time.)

I do not think the percentage on that chart really has to do with what percentage of your hook ups are with the same or opposite sex. You could feel a strong attraction to women and a small (but still there) attraction to men. On a far corner (0,0) you might have no sexual attractions at all (asexual) and on the opposite corner (100,100) you would be attracted to all genders (pansexual) including people who fall anywhere on the gender spectrum related by the other chart.

I actually do know a person who on this set of charts would be a 0,0,100,100. (Maybe not that extreme in the corners, but that's the general area.) They are agender and pansexual.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 9975
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2016, 03:39:09 PM »
Here's another really good chart to help you understand.

You are picking the wrong fight.

This one really was from Facebook.

Online Fedor

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1363
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #60 on: May 06, 2016, 03:57:57 PM »
Yeah, the 3rd dimension would be in and out of the paper and the fourth dimension would be another dimension. (I guess time if you are trying to relate this 4D chart to the real 3 dimensional world; but actually these are just 4 dimensions that really have nothing to do with the 4 dimensions we are perceiving like height, width, depth, and time.)

I do not think the percentage on that chart really has to do with what percentage of your hook ups are with the same or opposite sex. You could feel a strong attraction to women and a small (but still there) attraction to men. On a far corner (0,0) you might have no sexual attractions at all (asexual) and on the opposite corner (100,100) you would be attracted to all genders (pansexual) including people who fall anywhere on the gender spectrum related by the other chart.

I actually do know a person who on this set of charts would be a 0,0,100,100. (Maybe not that extreme in the corners, but that's the general area.) They are agender and pansexual.
Yes, again I realize the percentage does not represent anything concrete.  I was trying to demonstrate that a gradient of being attracted to a sex, gender(?) is a fallacy.  There may be times where someone may find themselves attracted to one they would not normally be.  But that is most likely an acute event and dictated by temporary emotional state, booze, a certain individual, whatever, and not fundamentally part of their nature.  Strong attraction/Mild attraction - these are ways to describe libido, not orientation.

0,0 100,100 sounds like a extremely rare and wonderful individual indeed. And one that would still fit in the model i describe above.
I was wrong and I apologize. - michigancat 8/22/14

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 36780
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #61 on: May 06, 2016, 03:59:25 PM »
you can put a % on anything, fedor.
"a lot of political rhetoric is picking a slice of "elites" and positioning yourselves against them."

Online Fedor

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1363
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #62 on: May 06, 2016, 04:04:00 PM »
you can put a % on anything, fedor.
0% and 100% are still percentages.
I was wrong and I apologize. - michigancat 8/22/14

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 36780
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #63 on: May 06, 2016, 04:09:05 PM »
you can put a % on anything, fedor.
0% and 100% are still percentages.

yes.  that was partially my point.  but even the example (below) you outlined supports non-absolute percentages.

Quote
There may be times where someone may find themselves attracted to one they would not normally be.  But that is most likely an acute event and dictated by temporary emotional state, booze, a certain individual, whatever, and not fundamentally part of their nature.

you can qualitatively call the % of less frequent attractions temporary or aberrant or whatever you want, but quantitatively you have x % attractions to one sex and 100-x % attractions to the other sex.
"a lot of political rhetoric is picking a slice of "elites" and positioning yourselves against them."

Online Fedor

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1363
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #64 on: May 06, 2016, 04:21:24 PM »
you can put a % on anything, fedor.
0% and 100% are still percentages.

yes.  that was partially my point.  but even the example (below) you outlined supports non-absolute percentages.

Quote
There may be times where someone may find themselves attracted to one they would not normally be.  But that is most likely an acute event and dictated by temporary emotional state, booze, a certain individual, whatever, and not fundamentally part of their nature.

you can qualitatively call the % of less frequent attractions temporary or aberrant or whatever you want, but quantitatively you have x % attractions to one sex and 100-x % attractions to the other sex.
We are complicated sacks of mush with hundreds of chemicals, hormones and substances of all kinds somehow kept in careful balance.  I said above nature is not perfect, if for a billionth of their time on this planet a person likes the look of the bloke sitting across from them, are they some tiny percentage gay? I don't think so. 
I was wrong and I apologize. - michigancat 8/22/14

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 36780
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #65 on: May 06, 2016, 04:25:05 PM »
We are complicated sacks of mush with hundreds of chemicals, hormones and substances of all kinds somehow kept in careful balance.  I said above nature is not perfect, if for a billionth of their time on this planet a person likes the look of the bloke sitting across from them, are they some tiny percentage gay? I don't think so. 
A friend described

you can call them x % perfect and 100 - x % imperfect instead of x % heterosexual and 100- x % homosexual if you want.  the data remain the same.
"a lot of political rhetoric is picking a slice of "elites" and positioning yourselves against them."

Online Fedor

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1363
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #66 on: May 06, 2016, 04:44:50 PM »
We are complicated sacks of mush with hundreds of chemicals, hormones and substances of all kinds somehow kept in careful balance.  I said above nature is not perfect, if for a billionth of their time on this planet a person likes the look of the bloke sitting across from them, are they some tiny percentage gay? I don't think so. 
A friend described

you can call them x % perfect and 100 - x % imperfect instead of x % heterosexual and 100- x % homosexual if you want.  the data remain the same.
Are you positing that no one is 100% or merely hammering home the rather insignificant point that it is possible to be <100%, =/=0 or =/=100, >0%?  If so, conceded. 
   
Two people get hammered and decide to "experiment", there was no attraction involved and they regretted the act afterward, still perfect?
A mentor relationship, where the mentee(?) feels such admiration for the mentor it briefly feels like attraction, but later the mentee realizes the emotion was unfamiliar and was characterized incorrectly.  Still perfect?   
I was wrong and I apologize. - michigancat 8/22/14

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 36780
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #67 on: May 06, 2016, 04:48:55 PM »
Are you merely hammering home the rather insignificant point that it is possible to be <100%, =/=0 or =/=100, >0%?  If so, conceded. 

i thought your whole argument was that it was stupid to express sexual preference as a %.  so yes, my whole point was that it isn't stupid to do so.
"a lot of political rhetoric is picking a slice of "elites" and positioning yourselves against them."

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 46488
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #68 on: May 06, 2016, 05:00:07 PM »
It's absurd to think attraction can even be close to binary.

Online Fedor

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1363
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #69 on: May 06, 2016, 05:00:49 PM »
Are you merely hammering home the rather insignificant point that it is possible to be <100%, =/=0 or =/=100, >0%?  If so, conceded. 

i thought your whole argument was that it was stupid to express sexual preference as a %.  so yes, my whole point was that it isn't stupid to do so.
Hmmm... This is a distribution with 99% of the population above the 99% mark, 0.9% below the 1% mark and the remaining 0.1% distributed across the remainder.*  Is a percentage  the best or even an appropriate way to present this information?

*numbers are made up but not terribly out of line.
I was wrong and I apologize. - michigancat 8/22/14

Offline Mrs. Gooch

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 9975
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #70 on: May 06, 2016, 05:06:01 PM »
I don't think that 99% of the population is actually at the 99+%. I am straight but I still wouldn't consider myself all the way at 99%.

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 36780
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #71 on: May 06, 2016, 05:08:18 PM »
Hmmm... This is a distribution with 99% of the population above the 99% mark, 0.9% below the 1% mark and the remaining 0.1% distributed across the remainder.*  Is a percentage  the best or even an appropriate way to present this information?

*numbers are made up but not terribly out of line.

the distribution of the data doesn't need to be normal for it to be appropriate to express the data as a percentage.


btw, i think your made up data are significantly off, but there's no question that the vast majority would cluster at 100% or close to it.
"a lot of political rhetoric is picking a slice of "elites" and positioning yourselves against them."

Offline star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 56170
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #72 on: May 06, 2016, 06:00:57 PM »
Probably around 90
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 36780
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #73 on: May 06, 2016, 06:04:31 PM »
Probably around 90

90% above 99% or 99% above 90%?
"a lot of political rhetoric is picking a slice of "elites" and positioning yourselves against them."

Offline star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 56170
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #74 on: May 06, 2016, 06:06:00 PM »
The cluster
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite