Author Topic: firebrucewebernow.com  (Read 102671 times)

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Offline michigancat

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #300 on: March 12, 2016, 01:20:47 PM »
This page http://www.firebrucewebernow.com/about.html is very strange. "WHAT THEY WANT IS FAILURE, AND NOTHING WILL STAND IN THEIR WAY"

Hiring a coach you thought could win but doesn't -- it happens at least once to virtually every AD in America. Currie has fired staff/coaches before, he will do so with oscar if/when needed. Keeping a losing coach looks worse than firing one you hired. Why on earth would an AD want failure?

Personal opinion: assuming Weber returns in 2016-17, if he doesn't make ncaa tourney, Weber will be gone.

I don't think keeping oscar would mean Currie is "wanting failure" to him, it means oscar has met his expectations. Nothing about oscar's performance thus far should be a surprise to anyone, ESPECIALLY Currie.

Of course, to a fan, Currie's expectations could be considered "failure".

I don't agree that retaining weber for next year means he has met Currie's expectations. And I also disagree with your underlying premise that Currie is ok with mediocre basketball. If that was so, weber would return after next season regardless of postseason -- and I don't think that's the case.

I think Currie expected weber to win. You can argue whether that was wise. I don't think it's reasonable to believe that he expected mediocrity or is ok with it. Every AD wants to win. The best thing for Currie's image would be to have a coach he hired do well. To think he wants anything other than that doesn't really fit into the other narrative that he's an egomaniac.

If Currie hired oscar and expected significantly better results after 4 years, he's a goddamn fool. I also think it's foolish to have a "make or break" year for a coach 5 years in to a tenure (who already has a 20 year track record). A bubble team that gets in is basically the same as a bubble team that is left out.

And to be fair, I posted in one of these threads that keeping oscar indefinitely while making the tournament 40-60% of the time isn't necessarily a bad idea. I don't think it's fitting a specific narrative or him being an egomaniac, it's about being realistic about where Weber stands among his peers. If you think he is average or slightly above average, it doesn't make sense to take a chance on an unproven commodity, because there's a better than 50% shot that the next guy will be worse. Keeping oscar indefinitely is kinda smart and pragmatic in a way.

Offline michigancat

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #301 on: March 12, 2016, 01:24:07 PM »
I don't think he WANTS to fail, but when we had Frank, and he tried to dismiss Curtis Kelly, then the whole Jamar thing, then running off Frank, it became clear to the fans winning is not what is valued most in a coach. What K-State has sold the past few years is "Family" and "The K-State Way" and "Doing thing THE RIGHT WAY" etc. I'm sure a win is viewed more positively than a loss, but the message I received as a fan is we'd rather lose the oscar way than win the Frank way.

I there's a revenue element that is also important. If attendance was around early 2000's levels, oscar wouldn't be nearly as acceptable. I also don't think oscar is "losing". He'll have some good years and bad years and average years and that will likely be enough to have decent revenue along with a clean image.

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #302 on: March 12, 2016, 01:24:44 PM »
If currie placed value in winning, he wouldn't have hired a fired loser
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline CHONGS

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #303 on: March 12, 2016, 01:28:17 PM »
Hiring the failure from Illinois is what ksu basketball aspired be.

Hiring the success at Illinois is what ku basketball decided to do.

The message is pretty clear.

Offline TheHamburglar

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #304 on: March 12, 2016, 01:29:15 PM »
This page http://www.firebrucewebernow.com/about.html is very strange. "WHAT THEY WANT IS FAILURE, AND NOTHING WILL STAND IN THEIR WAY"

Hiring a coach you thought could win but doesn't -- it happens at least once to virtually every AD in America. Currie has fired staff/coaches before, he will do so with oscar if/when needed. Keeping a losing coach looks worse than firing one you hired. Why on earth would an AD want failure?

Personal opinion: assuming Weber returns in 2016-17, if he doesn't make ncaa tourney, Weber will be gone.

I don't think keeping oscar would mean Currie is "wanting failure" to him, it means oscar has met his expectations. Nothing about oscar's performance thus far should be a surprise to anyone, ESPECIALLY Currie.

Of course, to a fan, Currie's expectations could be considered "failure".

I don't agree that retaining weber for next year means he has met Currie's expectations. And I also disagree with your underlying premise that Currie is ok with mediocre basketball. If that was so, weber would return after next season regardless of postseason -- and I don't think that's the case.

I think Currie expected weber to win. You can argue whether that was wise. I don't think it's reasonable to believe that he expected mediocrity or is ok with it. Every AD wants to win. The best thing for Currie's image would be to have a coach he hired do well. To think he wants anything other than that doesn't really fit into the other narrative that he's an egomaniac.

If Currie hired oscar and expected significantly better results after 4 years, he's a goddamn fool. I also think it's foolish to have a "make or break" year for a coach 5 years in to a tenure (who already has a 20 year track record). A bubble team that gets in is basically the same as a bubble team that is left out.

And to be fair, I posted in one of these threads that keeping oscar indefinitely while making the tournament 40-60% of the time isn't necessarily a bad idea. I don't think it's fitting a specific narrative or him being an egomaniac, it's about being realistic about where Weber stands among his peers. If you think he is average or slightly above average, it doesn't make sense to take a chance on an unproven commodity, because there's a better than 50% shot that the next guy will be worse. Keeping oscar indefinitely is kinda smart and pragmatic in a way.

Currie: "I am risk management".
I got a guy on the other line about some white walls

Offline michigancat

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #305 on: March 12, 2016, 01:31:18 PM »
This page http://www.firebrucewebernow.com/about.html is very strange. "WHAT THEY WANT IS FAILURE, AND NOTHING WILL STAND IN THEIR WAY"

Hiring a coach you thought could win but doesn't -- it happens at least once to virtually every AD in America. Currie has fired staff/coaches before, he will do so with oscar if/when needed. Keeping a losing coach looks worse than firing one you hired. Why on earth would an AD want failure?

Personal opinion: assuming Weber returns in 2016-17, if he doesn't make ncaa tourney, Weber will be gone.

I don't think keeping oscar would mean Currie is "wanting failure" to him, it means oscar has met his expectations. Nothing about oscar's performance thus far should be a surprise to anyone, ESPECIALLY Currie.

Of course, to a fan, Currie's expectations could be considered "failure".

I don't agree that retaining weber for next year means he has met Currie's expectations. And I also disagree with your underlying premise that Currie is ok with mediocre basketball. If that was so, weber would return after next season regardless of postseason -- and I don't think that's the case.

I think Currie expected weber to win. You can argue whether that was wise. I don't think it's reasonable to believe that he expected mediocrity or is ok with it. Every AD wants to win. The best thing for Currie's image would be to have a coach he hired do well. To think he wants anything other than that doesn't really fit into the other narrative that he's an egomaniac.

If Currie hired oscar and expected significantly better results after 4 years, he's a goddamn fool. I also think it's foolish to have a "make or break" year for a coach 5 years in to a tenure (who already has a 20 year track record). A bubble team that gets in is basically the same as a bubble team that is left out.

And to be fair, I posted in one of these threads that keeping oscar indefinitely while making the tournament 40-60% of the time isn't necessarily a bad idea. I don't think it's fitting a specific narrative or him being an egomaniac, it's about being realistic about where Weber stands among his peers. If you think he is average or slightly above average, it doesn't make sense to take a chance on an unproven commodity, because there's a better than 50% shot that the next guy will be worse. Keeping oscar indefinitely is kinda smart and pragmatic in a way.

Currie: "I am risk management".

Yep, he's going to stick with his bonds/index funds rather than chase tech stocks. There's a lot to be said for the strategy.

Of course, he could never say this, but it makes a lot of sense.

Offline CHONGS

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #306 on: March 12, 2016, 01:33:14 PM »
Firing oscar only two years after letting and apparently encouraging him to blow up the roster, is crazier than simply firing him last year.   

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #307 on: March 12, 2016, 01:35:07 PM »
If Currie hired oscar and expected significantly better results after 4 years, he's a goddamn fool. I also think it's foolish to have a "make or break" year for a coach 5 years in to a tenure (who already has a 20 year track record). A bubble team that gets in is basically the same as a bubble team that is left out.

And to be fair, I posted in one of these threads that keeping oscar indefinitely while making the tournament 40-60% of the time isn't necessarily a bad idea. I don't think it's fitting a specific narrative or him being an egomaniac, it's about being realistic about where Weber stands among his peers. If you think he is average or slightly above average, it doesn't make sense to take a chance on an unproven commodity, because there's a better than 50% shot that the next guy will be worse. Keeping oscar indefinitely is kinda smart and pragmatic in a way.

I agree that "make or break in year 5" is pretty dumb, but I also think the 2nd part of your point is why the 1st part might not be true in this particular situation. "Competitive" has to turn into "winning" and enough to be an NCAA tournament team at some point, even for the most patient of fans. If oscar goes 3 straight years with no NCAA births, then that Currie revenue stream will definitely start to take a hit. There will still be fans that stick with him if we make the NIT or something next year, but I think far more would jump off and lose their patience with oscar.

And honestly if anything, if this team somehow sneaks into the NIT this year, that might put slightly more pressure on an NCAA birth next season because one point of "improvement" would be erased for oscar.

Offline michigancat

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #308 on: March 12, 2016, 01:39:57 PM »
If Currie hired oscar and expected significantly better results after 4 years, he's a goddamn fool. I also think it's foolish to have a "make or break" year for a coach 5 years in to a tenure (who already has a 20 year track record). A bubble team that gets in is basically the same as a bubble team that is left out.

And to be fair, I posted in one of these threads that keeping oscar indefinitely while making the tournament 40-60% of the time isn't necessarily a bad idea. I don't think it's fitting a specific narrative or him being an egomaniac, it's about being realistic about where Weber stands among his peers. If you think he is average or slightly above average, it doesn't make sense to take a chance on an unproven commodity, because there's a better than 50% shot that the next guy will be worse. Keeping oscar indefinitely is kinda smart and pragmatic in a way.

I agree that "make or break in year 5" is pretty dumb, but I also think the 2nd part of your point is why the 1st part might not be true in this particular situation. "Competitive" has to turn into "winning" and enough to be an NCAA tournament team at some point, even for the most patient of fans. If oscar goes 3 straight years with no NCAA births, then that Currie revenue stream will definitely start to take a hit. There will still be fans that stick with him if we make the NIT or something next year, but I think far more would jump off and lose their patience with oscar.

And honestly if anything, if this team somehow sneaks into the NIT this year, that might put slightly more pressure on an NCAA birth next season because one point of "improvement" would be erased for oscar.

I think an improved conference record plus a bubble resume will be enough to keep the revenue solid for at least another year (whether or not they actually make it.) 4 straight misses might be a problem, although then you're getting in territory that is measurably worse than his Illinois performance.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #309 on: March 12, 2016, 01:43:48 PM »
Yes. That's why I'm saying next year is more important. If he's makes 3 NCAAs in his first 5 years, even with 2 complete misses, then he'll be really safe and 80+% of K-State fans will be happy with the program. I won't even be that mad if that happens, but that happening seems like a coin toss at best.

Offline michigancat

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #310 on: March 12, 2016, 01:47:36 PM »
Yes. That's why I'm saying next year is more important. If he's makes 3 NCAAs in his first 5 years, even with 2 complete misses, then he'll be really safe and 80+% of K-State fans will be happy with the program. I won't even be that mad if that happens, but that happening seems like a coin toss at best.

Our only disagreement is that I think merely being on the bubble will be plenty to keep fans engaged.

Offline CHONGS

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #311 on: March 12, 2016, 01:53:02 PM »
Oh some event outside of oscar's control will keep enough  fans engaged in any case. 

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #312 on: March 12, 2016, 01:53:14 PM »
Yes. That's why I'm saying next year is more important. If he's makes 3 NCAAs in his first 5 years, even with 2 complete misses, then he'll be really safe and 80+% of K-State fans will be happy with the program. I won't even be that mad if that happens, but that happening seems like a coin toss at best.

Our only disagreement is that I think merely being on the bubble will be plenty to keep fans engaged.

I see what you are saying.

.500 in the league might be bubble territory next year with a Big 12 that's not nearly as good. If oscar goes 9-9 or 10-8 in the Big 12 next year, he's probably safe regardless of the NCAA tournament.

Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #313 on: March 12, 2016, 01:57:38 PM »
the message I received as a fan is we'd rather lose the oscar way than win the Frank way.

Currie's order of preference in my mind:

1. Win weber way
2. Win Frank way
3. Lose weber way
4. Lose frank way

I think Currie would rather win the "right" way, whatever that means to him -- he'd rather win and play by the rules. He thought he could get that with Weber, and I suppose it is still possible. But if/when it doesn't work out he'll find another guy.


their actions suggest you can switch 2 and 3

Offline TownieCat

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #314 on: March 12, 2016, 02:08:23 PM »
Comparing Frank and oscar is pointless until SC does something noteworthy.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #315 on: March 12, 2016, 02:09:51 PM »
I actually don't think Currie is an egomaniac.  I think it's almost the opposite, he lacks self confidence and is unsure of himself at times.  That is why he got edged into Weber by the search firm and Keady.

Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #316 on: March 12, 2016, 02:11:49 PM »
Hiring the failure from Illinois is what ksu basketball aspired be.

Hiring the success at Illinois is what ku basketball decided to do.

The message is pretty clear.

yeah. being really, really good at mens basketball would not make the top ten list of what our AD wants to accomplish. for me it would be #2 just behind being really, really good at football and just ahead of being really, really good at women's basketball. but then again i would probably be focusing on those things so much that i wouldn't have built that rowing building on the rec fields. it's a give and take.

Offline Trim

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #317 on: March 12, 2016, 02:19:14 PM »
What's a worse look for currie - wanting to win and accordingly hiring oscar, or not wanting to win and accordingly hiring oscar?

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #318 on: March 12, 2016, 02:20:59 PM »
It's basketball, you keep BID until you find the guy.   


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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #319 on: March 12, 2016, 02:23:08 PM »
What's a worse look for currie - wanting to win and accordingly hiring oscar, or not wanting to win and accordingly hiring oscar?

https://youtu.be/JcZHSGyos6g?t=1m3s

Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #320 on: March 12, 2016, 02:44:53 PM »
What's a worse look for currie - wanting to win and accordingly hiring oscar, or not wanting to win and accordingly hiring oscar?

this is a great question, because as a casual observer of college sports and not something that i do for a living to make money and provide for my family, i would and did know for 100% certainty that the oscar hire was going to fail. not 99%. 100%. if i knew, how did he not?

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #321 on: March 12, 2016, 02:49:35 PM »
What's a worse look for currie - wanting to win and accordingly hiring oscar, or not wanting to win and accordingly hiring oscar?

this is a great question, because as a casual observer of college sports and not something that i do for a living to make money and provide for my family, i would and did know for 100% certainty that the oscar hire was going to fail. not 99%. 100%. if i knew, how did he not?

See my post.  He got bullied by people who stood to gain if Weber got hired or who had a close friendship with Weber.

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #322 on: March 12, 2016, 03:01:26 PM »
What's a worse look for currie - wanting to win and accordingly hiring oscar, or not wanting to win and accordingly hiring oscar?

this is a great question, because as a casual observer of college sports and not something that i do for a living to make money and provide for my family, i would and did know for 100% certainty that the oscar hire was going to fail. not 99%. 100%. if i knew, how did he not?

See my post.  He got bullied by people who stood to gain if Weber got hired or who had a close friendship with Weber.

I think he saw this squeaky clean guy (in his eyes) that got what he perceived to be a raw deal at Illinois.  He saw the polar opposite of Frank in terms of personality, and he kept hearing from all of these search firm guys and other coaches (Keady, Izzo) that oscar was a great X's and O's guy.  I think he had this mold of a coach he wanted, he saw a guy that fit his budget, and he rolled the dice.

To me, it feels like he looked at everything but the tangible results and trends.  It's like the threw out the actual data and used circumstantial evidence to make the case for hiring him.

Offline CatsFan_58

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #323 on: March 12, 2016, 03:03:58 PM »

Comparing Frank and oscar is pointless until SC does something noteworthy.
I think what Frank has done is pretty noteworthy, considering where both programs were when each coach took over. One is trending up and one is trending down / stagnant.


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Offline CNS

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #324 on: March 12, 2016, 03:06:14 PM »
A good rule of thumb is to not hire a coach who other coaches describe as a good (fill in the blank) coach.  Ex, x an o coach.  If they have to specify the one part of coaching they are good at,.they aren't good enough.