Author Topic: 40 Acres and a Mule  (Read 2410 times)

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Offline MakeItRain

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40 Acres and a Mule
« on: December 27, 2015, 08:16:47 PM »
I have been pretty meh about slavery reparations. My mother is half sac and fox and we also did not receive any refunds from the treaty with the U.S. Government, whatever.

Then I learned about this over the weekend

http://nytimes.com/2015/12/25/us/politics/americans-held-hostage-in-iran-win-compensation-36-years-later.html

What in the world?
I just read this http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ I'm now all in
Quote
Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole.


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Offline gatoveintisiete

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2015, 08:20:09 PM »
I'm all for it.
it’s not like I’m tired of WINNING, but dude, let me catch my breath.

Offline wetwillie

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2015, 08:41:19 PM »
How much per person? 
When the bullets are flying, that's when I'm at my best

Offline gatoveintisiete

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2015, 08:47:21 PM »
Yeah who all pays, who gets, and how much?
it’s not like I’m tired of WINNING, but dude, let me catch my breath.

Offline gatoveintisiete

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2015, 08:53:36 PM »
Undeveloped farmland has a average value of $2,000 per acre, a mule prolly another $500, so that's $80,500 for every freed slave right?  Do their descendants cut that up?
it’s not like I’m tired of WINNING, but dude, let me catch my breath.

Offline michigancat

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2015, 09:02:00 PM »
Reparations isn't all about slavery IMO

love that Coates piece, too

Offline memphis

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2015, 10:40:19 PM »
Reparations isn't all about slavery IMO

love that Coates piece, too
Where do you draw the line?  :driving:

Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2015, 10:59:57 PM »
Fwiw, there wer about 4 million slaves in 1860 per the census. If you want to put a pen to paper and ballpark some numbers (obv that wouldn't cover everyone ever enslaved in the 80 years of us government.

On topic, it's an incredibly stupid idea to make the people of today pay for the wrongs of others, just as its stupid to reward people for wrongs committed against their ancestors. There is no end to wrongs committed by our government against specific groups of people, and reparations would further the injustice not aid in curing it. It's a slippery slope and has a very occutard hue to it.

What makes this so libtarded is the blaming of government for the shortfalls of one segment of society, while simultaneously looking to it to make things right. These people should be small government brownbackites, in essence the victims of the most egregious form of cronyism, instead they want the punitive government to lash out at some other undeserving group of people, as if that will solve a problem rather than creating more. So bizarre to acknowledge the source of the problem, then demand a bigger, stronger, more powerful problem.

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2015, 11:03:57 PM »
its chings

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2015, 11:16:04 PM »
How much per person?

There isn't really a dollar figure that would correct the wrongs at this point so any amount would be largely symbolic. The government long ago missed it's chance to right the wrong in a way that would have truly helped and wouldn't have bankrupted the country and ruined the dollar by driving inflation up 20 fold.

Did you know that white slave owners received reparations?

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2015, 11:20:40 PM »
Fwiw, there wer about 4 million slaves in 1860 per the census. If you want to put a pen to paper and ballpark some numbers (obv that wouldn't cover everyone ever enslaved in the 80 years of us government.

On topic, it's an incredibly stupid idea to make the people of today pay for the wrongs of others, just as its stupid to reward people for wrongs committed against their ancestors. There is no end to wrongs committed by our government against specific groups of people, and reparations would further the injustice not aid in curing it. It's a slippery slope and has a very occutard hue to it.

What makes this so libtarded is the blaming of government for the shortfalls of one segment of society, while simultaneously looking to it to make things right. These people should be small government brownbackites, in essence the victims of the most egregious form of cronyism, instead they want the punitive government to lash out at some other undeserving group of people, as if that will solve a problem rather than creating more. So bizarre to acknowledge the source of the problem, then demand a bigger, stronger, more powerful problem.

What other undeserving group of people is being lashed out at?

Offline michigancat

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2015, 11:49:17 PM »
Reparations isn't all about slavery IMO

love that Coates piece, too
Where do you draw the line?  :driving:
I don't know. Probably housing discrimination.

Offline renocat

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2015, 07:45:58 AM »
Are there deductions to the amount owed for the union soldiers who died or maimed fighting for their freedom, for the citizenship they won, for the loss of the greatest president we have ever had, and the freedom to rise to great heights.  Yes we have much to be ashamed for az a nation in the way we have treated our black brothers, and it continues today.  Even Renocat, raised in the Highlands prairie of Red Jaw, is trying to get better and have good friends of color.

Offline CNS

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2015, 08:39:13 AM »
Free higher ed would be a good reparation, imo.  The problem is the massive pile of crap that is the public school system not preparing many black children to be able to take advantage of that. 

I would say that really good public school would be a good reparation, but that should be an existing right and it already  isn't happening.

Offline michigancat

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2015, 10:03:41 AM »
Free higher ed would be a good reparation, imo.  The problem is the massive pile of crap that is the public school system not preparing many black children to be able to take advantage of that. 

I would say that really good public school would be a good reparation, but that should be an existing right and it already  isn't happening.
Yes and yes. I really think cash would be best. The question is how much?

Offline CNS

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2015, 10:06:25 AM »
I don't think cash would be best at providing lost oppys.  Cash can be gone in no time with no appreciable gain. 

Offline gatoveintisiete

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2015, 10:26:56 AM »
So elite :love: :love:
it’s not like I’m tired of WINNING, but dude, let me catch my breath.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2015, 10:37:48 AM »
Are the hostages being repaid by the Carter Foundation?   A shame we have to pay for such ineptitude.


Offline memphis

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2015, 10:43:15 AM »
Free higher ed would be a good reparation, imo.  The problem is the massive pile of crap that is the public school system not preparing many black children to be able to take advantage of that. 

I would say that really good public school would be a good reparation, but that should be an existing right and it already  isn't happening.
Yes and yes. I really think cash would be best. The question is how much?

Should be based on something tangible to families in today's economy not something cooked up from historical conjecture. Even if the amount is set upon, what about the distribution method?   :horrorsurprise:

That's what blows my mind about reparations, the details of something like this would be incredibly hard to do well. Could you imagine the incentive for fraud?

Offline michigancat

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2015, 10:58:19 AM »
Free higher ed would be a good reparation, imo.  The problem is the massive pile of crap that is the public school system not preparing many black children to be able to take advantage of that. 

I would say that really good public school would be a good reparation, but that should be an existing right and it already  isn't happening.
Yes and yes. I really think cash would be best. The question is how much?

Should be based on something tangible to families in today's economy not something cooked up from historical conjecture. Even if the amount is set upon, what about the distribution method?   :horrorsurprise:

That's what blows my mind about reparations, the details of something like this would be incredibly hard to do well. Could you imagine the incentive for fraud?
We've done it before for several groups. I don't know the details of how they went down, but you could look at what went well and what went wrong in those cases and apply it to this new case.

Offline michigancat

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2015, 10:59:09 AM »
I don't think cash would be best at providing lost oppys.  Cash can be gone in no time with no appreciable gain.
Really, so can an education.

Offline memphis

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2015, 10:59:31 AM »
Free higher ed would be a good reparation, imo.  The problem is the massive pile of crap that is the public school system not preparing many black children to be able to take advantage of that. 

I would say that really good public school would be a good reparation, but that should be an existing right and it already  isn't happening.
Yes and yes. I really think cash would be best. The question is how much?

Should be based on something tangible to families in today's economy not something cooked up from historical conjecture. Even if the amount is set upon, what about the distribution method?   :horrorsurprise:

That's what blows my mind about reparations, the details of something like this would be incredibly hard to do well. Could you imagine the incentive for fraud?
We've done it before for several groups. I don't know the details of how they went down, but you could look at what went well and what went wrong in those cases and apply it to this new case.

Any idea of relative size of the populations in comparison?

Offline michigancat

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2015, 11:00:59 AM »
Free higher ed would be a good reparation, imo.  The problem is the massive pile of crap that is the public school system not preparing many black children to be able to take advantage of that. 

I would say that really good public school would be a good reparation, but that should be an existing right and it already  isn't happening.
Yes and yes. I really think cash would be best. The question is how much?

Should be based on something tangible to families in today's economy not something cooked up from historical conjecture. Even if the amount is set upon, what about the distribution method?   :horrorsurprise:

That's what blows my mind about reparations, the details of something like this would be incredibly hard to do well. Could you imagine the incentive for fraud?
We've done it before for several groups. I don't know the details of how they went down, but you could look at what went well and what went wrong in those cases and apply it to this new case.

Any idea of relative size of the populations in comparison?
Obviously it's much larger. I don't like the argument that the government mumped over too many people to try to make it right, it that's what you're getting at.

Offline memphis

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2015, 11:44:23 AM »

Obviously it's much larger. I don't like the argument that the government mumped over too many people to try to make it right, it that's what you're getting at.
Just seemed like you were being deus ex machina about the political reality in establishing a scope, not really an argument.

Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: 40 Acres and a Mule
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2015, 11:51:34 AM »
Free higher ed would be a good reparation, imo.  The problem is the massive pile of crap that is the public school system not preparing many black children to be able to take advantage of that. 

I would say that really good public school would be a good reparation, but that should be an existing right and it already  isn't happening.
Yes and yes. I really think cash would be best. The question is how much?

Should be based on something tangible to families in today's economy not something cooked up from historical conjecture. Even if the amount is set upon, what about the distribution method?   :horrorsurprise:

That's what blows my mind about reparations, the details of something like this would be incredibly hard to do well. Could you imagine the incentive for fraud?
We've done it before for several groups. I don't know the details of how they went down, but you could look at what went well and what went wrong in those cases and apply it to this new case.

Any idea of relative size of the populations in comparison?
Obviously it's much larger. I don't like the argument that the government mumped over too many people to try to make it right, it that's what you're getting at.

The "I don't like that argument" argument is pretty weak.  Shelling out cash (or education-wtf?) willy nilly seems like a really bad idea, almost as bad as the entire idea of reparations in general.

Also, conflating "actual damages" like with Asian Americans in ww2, with speculative and conjectural reparations for slavery, Jim crow and then some stuff that targeted poors generally, is a disingenuous way to support your position.

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