Mass Shooting in San Bernardino: 2 shooters and a guy with a warrant

[Emo EMAW]

You made a strawman argument.  To me it's obvious you don't want to discuss this.  You'd rather put words in peoples' mouths.

WTF? I put words in your mouth by asking you to clarify your positions? Yeah, we're definitely done here.

Idiot.

[Pendergast]

It's amazing how little the average person cares to observe an issue from multiple view points.  I wonder how many fewer shootings we'll have after we limit the number of guns sold at gun shows, by a single digit percentage at best.  The support of wasted time, is nothing more.

It has no effect on anyone who lawfully wants to acquire a firearm. Gun people always spout the stupid crap about the good guys having guns but don't want to do a damn thing about ensuring exactly that happens. Without research I can think of two mass shootings committed by mentally handicapped citizens with guns purchased at gun shows, if you don't think the law is worth it to even save one life then we need to have a different conversation.

What conversation would you like to have my petulant friend?  Since there is no "law" to speak of I really have no clue what you're talking about.  Nonetheless, the tree of liberty must continue to grow.

The bigger impact of the executive order was on the finalization of ATF 41F.  Which strangely can be seen as a win for the pro-constitution citizens.  Out of all this noise, the President pushed forward something that makes it easier to secure an NFA item.  Never saw that coming.

[star seed 7]

Love when a post contains "the tree of liberty" and "pro-constitution" 

[MakeItRain]

It's amazing how little the average person cares to observe an issue from multiple view points.  I wonder how many fewer shootings we'll have after we limit the number of guns sold at gun shows, by a single digit percentage at best.  The support of wasted time, is nothing more.

It has no effect on anyone who lawfully wants to acquire a firearm. Gun people always spout the stupid crap about the good guys having guns but don't want to do a damn thing about ensuring exactly that happens. Without research I can think of two mass shootings committed by mentally handicapped citizens with guns purchased at gun shows, if you don't think the law is worth it to even save one life then we need to have a different conversation.

What conversation would you like to have my petulant friend?  Since there is no "law" to speak of I really have no clue what you're talking about.  Nonetheless, the tree of liberty must continue to grow.

The bigger impact of the executive order was on the finalization of ATF 41F.  Which strangely can be seen as a win for the pro-constitution citizens.  Out of all this noise, the President pushed forward something that makes it easier to secure an NFA item.  Never saw that coming.

Man, I have no clue as to what you're talking about here, my subscription to gun loon weekly expired in 2012. I can't find anything referencing "ATF 41F" outside of gun blogs and message boards, the most prominent one being something called pafoa or the Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Association. Can you talk about something that has actually been cited by a reputable news source? Also trying to find out what ATF 41F is led me down quite a rabbit hole, can someone tell me why gun enthusiasts who post on the internet speak in so many acronyms, is it fear of the government coming to take their guns?

[Dugout DickStone]

How will it affect my well regulated militia?

[michigancat]

It's amazing how little the average person cares to observe an issue from multiple view points.  I wonder how many fewer shootings we'll have after we limit the number of guns sold at gun shows, by a single digit percentage at best.  The support of wasted time, is nothing more.

It has no effect on anyone who lawfully wants to acquire a firearm. Gun people always spout the stupid crap about the good guys having guns but don't want to do a damn thing about ensuring exactly that happens. Without research I can think of two mass shootings committed by mentally handicapped citizens with guns purchased at gun shows, if you don't think the law is worth it to even save one life then we need to have a different conversation.

What conversation would you like to have my petulant friend?  Since there is no "law" to speak of I really have no clue what you're talking about.  Nonetheless, the tree of liberty must continue to grow.

The bigger impact of the executive order was on the finalization of ATF 41F.  Which strangely can be seen as a win for the pro-constitution citizens.  Out of all this noise, the President pushed forward something that makes it easier to secure an NFA item.  Never saw that coming.

Man, I have no clue as to what you're talking about here, my subscription to gun loon weekly expired in 2012. I can't find anything referencing "ATF 41F" outside of gun blogs and message boards, the most prominent one being something called pafoa or the Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Association. Can you talk about something that has actually been cited by a reputable news source? Also trying to find out what ATF 41F is led me down quite a rabbit hole, can someone tell me why gun enthusiasts who post on the internet speak in so many acronyms, is it fear of the government coming to take their guns?

It kind of reminds me of one of Stunner's alpha male websites that also hated Jews and had some sort of code for them in comments

[lopakman]

guns are awesome, I have two of them.  I'm happy I live in a country I can protect my family.  You know just trying to save a life

[MakeItRain]

You made a strawman argument.  To me it's obvious you don't want to discuss this.  You'd rather put words in peoples' mouths.

WTF? I put words in your mouth by asking you to clarify your positions? Yeah, we're definitely done here.

Idiot.

I want to play a game, let's see how many more ways emo emaw can avoid expanding on this "this executive action is...subversion of the process, and will probably have a net negative impact."

So far he's misused the term strawman, accused me of not wanting to discuss the issue even though I asked for clarification, and called me an idiot. So were at three. I don't think he'll actually clarify, so we are left with does he have the discipline to just let it go or keep acting like we can't read. I'm guessing he'll post at least two more times without clarifying before this topic loses steam.

[star seed 7]

guns are awesome, I have two of them.  I'm happy I live in a country I can protect my family.  You know just trying to save a life

I hope one of your kids doesn't shoot themselves or another child with your guns. Which is like a million times more likely when someone keeps guns in the house 

[MakeItRain]

guns are awesome, I have two of them.  I'm happy I live in a country I can protect my family.  You know just trying to save a life

I don't own one, my wife but shooting them is kinda cool

[Pendergast]

It's amazing how little the average person cares to observe an issue from multiple view points.  I wonder how many fewer shootings we'll have after we limit the number of guns sold at gun shows, by a single digit percentage at best.  The support of wasted time, is nothing more.

It has no effect on anyone who lawfully wants to acquire a firearm. Gun people always spout the stupid crap about the good guys having guns but don't want to do a damn thing about ensuring exactly that happens. Without research I can think of two mass shootings committed by mentally handicapped citizens with guns purchased at gun shows, if you don't think the law is worth it to even save one life then we need to have a different conversation.

What conversation would you like to have my petulant friend?  Since there is no "law" to speak of I really have no clue what you're talking about.  Nonetheless, the tree of liberty must continue to grow.

The bigger impact of the executive order was on the finalization of ATF 41F.  Which strangely can be seen as a win for the pro-constitution citizens.  Out of all this noise, the President pushed forward something that makes it easier to secure an NFA item.  Never saw that coming.

Man, I have no clue as to what you're talking about here, my subscription to gun loon weekly expired in 2012. I can't find anything referencing "ATF 41F" outside of gun blogs and message boards, the most prominent one being something called pafoa or the Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Association. Can you talk about something that has actually been cited by a reputable news source? Also trying to find out what ATF 41F is led me down quite a rabbit hole, can someone tell me why gun enthusiasts who post on the internet speak in so many acronyms, is it fear of the government coming to take their guns?

It's the most significant change from the executive order, which you are "discussing".  If you are unaware of the significance of the order, why discuss it?  "I'm ignorant" seems like an odd response.

[lopakman]

guns are awesome, I have two of them.  I'm happy I live in a country I can protect my family.  You know just trying to save a life

I hope one of your kids doesn't shoot themselves or another child with your guns. Which is like a million times more likely when someone keeps guns in the house 

I can't argue that there is a risk.  I keep mine in a safe which at the ages of 8 and 5, I'm confident my kids can't hack into.  They are aware of the guns however as I think it is important they know about guns and specifically the dangers.

[lopakman]

guns are awesome, I have two of them.  I'm happy I live in a country I can protect my family.  You know just trying to save a life

I don't own one, my wife but shooting them is kinda cool

Honestly my wife was the same way, until the Wichita murders happened.  We both knew a couple of the victims and with her being from Wichita it hit her very hard.  We felt (and at that time we did not have kids, although that hasn't changed our position) that the risk of having a gun in the house was worth it.  One thing we do is disclose this information to our kids friends when they come over as we always ask if there is a gun in the house when our kids go over for play dates.  Knowledge about guns whether you are pro or con is so important.

[michigancat]

I keep scorpions in the house, because it's important to understand their dangers.

[MakeItRain]

It's amazing how little the average person cares to observe an issue from multiple view points.  I wonder how many fewer shootings we'll have after we limit the number of guns sold at gun shows, by a single digit percentage at best.  The support of wasted time, is nothing more.

It has no effect on anyone who lawfully wants to acquire a firearm. Gun people always spout the stupid crap about the good guys having guns but don't want to do a damn thing about ensuring exactly that happens. Without research I can think of two mass shootings committed by mentally handicapped citizens with guns purchased at gun shows, if you don't think the law is worth it to even save one life then we need to have a different conversation.

What conversation would you like to have my petulant friend?  Since there is no "law" to speak of I really have no clue what you're talking about.  Nonetheless, the tree of liberty must continue to grow.

The bigger impact of the executive order was on the finalization of ATF 41F.  Which strangely can be seen as a win for the pro-constitution citizens.  Out of all this noise, the President pushed forward something that makes it easier to secure an NFA item.  Never saw that coming.

Man, I have no clue as to what you're talking about here, my subscription to gun loon weekly expired in 2012. I can't find anything referencing "ATF 41F" outside of gun blogs and message boards, the most prominent one being something called pafoa or the Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Association. Can you talk about something that has actually been cited by a reputable news source? Also trying to find out what ATF 41F is led me down quite a rabbit hole, can someone tell me why gun enthusiasts who post on the internet speak in so many acronyms, is it fear of the government coming to take their guns?

It's the most significant change from the executive order, which you are "discussing".  If you are unaware of the significance of the order, why discuss it?  "I'm ignorant" seems like an odd response.

I have no choice but to be ignorant and take your word for it since there is no citeable material over ATF 41F that I can read, unless google is a lying vast left wing conspiracy that is intentionally hiding all of the results.

[lopakman]

I keep scorpions in the house, because it's important to understand their dangers.

That's great, I hope if your house ever gets broken into they protect your family.  I know my family will be fine in a home invasion, although I'm worried about yours 

[michigancat]

scorpions are rough ridin' mean

[star seed 7]

Kinda hard to protect against murderers when they are locked in a safe.

Maybe the home invaders will let you take a time out to go collect your weapons

[lopakman]

Are they attack scorpions?  Did you train them?  I mean if they are then I think you're on to something as a substitute for guns.

[lopakman]

Kinda hard to protect against murderers when they are locked in a safe.

nope

[Pendergast]

For those actually interested, I'm never quite sure who just wishes to argue and who might find information interesting...

An NFA (National Firearms Act) or Class III item (there are many names and words used) is an Item described within the NFA as prohibited unless you go through a lengthy process to get a stamp or license for the item (from short barreled weapons, to automatic weapons made before 19-something, to silencers, etc.).  In many states, NFA items are prohibited, in Red states, they are typically allowed.  The process involves a $200 fee, fingerprinting at a local Law Enforcement office, sign off by your local high-ranking Law Enforcement Official, and 6 to 18 months of waiting while the Bureau of ATF (and really big fires) processes the paperwork and does a stringent background check.

In many areas that an NFA item is otherwise legal, the local high-ranking Law Enforcement Official may simply refuse to sign your paperwork, meaning you may not apply for the item.  To subvert this, creating a Trust or Gun Trust has become very popular.  As the Trust is not a person, the process was made simpler by eliminating finger printing and the local Law Enforcement sign off.

For obvious reasons the ATF did not like this, so they have been considering changes (ATF 41F).  That change was finalized with this Executive order.  The general change is, the complete elimination of the Law Enforcement sign off for individual applicants, and that the Trust creator and anyone in the Trust intending to use the NFA item must submit fingerprints, photo ID, etc. so that a background check can be implemented.  Thus making NFA items accessible in many more areas (without a trust), while not restricting them in any new areas.  Thusly it can be viewed as a win for Pro-Gun persons.

This is all a general summation, please research further if you would like precise details.

https://www.atf.gov/qa-category/national-firearms-act-nfa
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/11/26/setting-nfa-gun-trust/
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/01/foghorn/breaking-atf-issues-final-ruling-on-nfa-trusts-requires-fingerprints-but-eliminates-cleo-sign-off/

Edit: the most common items are silencers, and short barreled rifles, there is active legislation that will most likely not pass, but would eliminate silencers from the NFA

[Emo EMAW]

You made a strawman argument.  To me it's obvious you don't want to discuss this.  You'd rather put words in peoples' mouths.

WTF? I put words in your mouth by asking you to clarify your positions? Yeah, we're definitely done here.

Idiot.

I want to play a game, let's see how many more ways emo emaw can avoid expanding on this "this executive action is...subversion of the process, and will probably have a net negative impact."

So far he's misused the term strawman, accused me of not wanting to discuss the issue even though I asked for clarification, and called me an idiot. So were at three. I don't think he'll actually clarify, so we are left with does he have the discipline to just let it go or keep acting like we can't read. I'm guessing he'll post at least two more times without clarifying before this topic loses steam.

I'm going to try a different approach.

[Emo EMAW]

I agree that it doesn't go far enough I'd love to hear more about it subverting the process and it having a net negative impact.

With whom are you agreeing with here?

[MakeItRain]

For those actually interested, I'm never quite sure who just wishes to argue and who might find information interesting...

An NFA (National Firearms Act) or Class III item (there are many names and words used) is an Item described within the NFA as prohibited unless you go through a lengthy process to get a stamp or license for the item (from short barreled weapons, to automatic weapons made before 19-something, to silencers, etc.).  In many states, NFA items are prohibited, in Red states, they are typically allowed.  The process involves a $200 fee, fingerprinting at a local Law Enforcement office, sign off by your local high-ranking Law Enforcement Official, and 6 to 18 months of waiting while the Bureau of ATF (and really big fires) processes the paperwork and does a stringent background check.

In many areas that an NFA item is otherwise legal, the local high-ranking Law Enforcement Official may simply refuse to sign your paperwork, meaning you may not apply for the item.  To subvert this, creating a Trust or Gun Trust has become very popular.  As the Trust is not a person, the process was made simpler by eliminating finger printing and the local Law Enforcement sign off.

For obvious reasons the ATF did not like this, so they have been considering changes (ATF 41F).  That change was finalized with this Executive order.  The general change is, the complete elimination of the Law Enforcement sign off for individual applicants, and that the Trust creator and anyone in the Trust intending to use the NFA item must submit fingerprints, photo ID, etc. so that a background check can be implemented.  Thus making NFA items accessible in many more areas (without a trust), while not restricting them in any new areas.  Thusly it can be viewed as a win for Pro-Gun persons.

This is all a general summation, please research further if you would like precise details.

https://www.atf.gov/qa-category/national-firearms-act-nfa
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/11/26/setting-nfa-gun-trust/
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/01/foghorn/breaking-atf-issues-final-ruling-on-nfa-trusts-requires-fingerprints-but-eliminates-cleo-sign-off/

Edit: the most common items are silencers, and short barreled rifles, there is active legislation that will most likely not pass, but would eliminate silencers from the NFA

Thank you for that. No offense but I'm not reading those pro gun sites. A few comments and questions.

1. You mentioned that the ban on these class III items are local in nature, so I'm confused on the effect of the executive order.
2. The sign off is complete horse crap and ripe for abuses. If you think for instance me living in a highly rural area with a percentage of african american citizens at roughly one percent is as likely to get signed off on as let's say the sheriff's cousin with a minor criminal history of drug or alcohol offenses then you are just not being honest. (you being the generic reader not you personally, pendergast, I don't want to get hung up on that)
3. Since the sign off system can be manipulated isn't it better to just have these people's prints on record anyway? I mean who in the eff needs a silencer?
4. The gun trust thing is odd and confusing and I have no idea how it's legal.

[MakeItRain]

I agree that it doesn't go far enough I'd love to hear more about it subverting the process and it having a net negative impact.

With whom are you agreeing with here?

With the poster who so eloquently said "executive action is stupid." It was obviously tongue in cheek as I have expressed some issue with the executive order as well but for the complete opposite reason. Now that we have dealt with that particular distraction with something super obvious, can we move on to the main event which is "it subverting the process and it having a net negative impact?"