Author Topic: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look  (Read 135742 times)

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Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1450 on: July 29, 2020, 03:32:16 PM »
i agree with yglesias that it is wrong for clients to want you to lie to them and not wrong of a person not to.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1451 on: July 29, 2020, 03:39:06 PM »
i agree with yglesias that it is wrong for clients to want you to lie to them and not wrong of a person not to.

I agree, I think the issue is that it was broadcast publicly. I don't think a client (or Civis) would have been nearly as upset if it had been presented confidentially as part of a project with proper vetting from civis and context for the client.

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1452 on: July 29, 2020, 03:43:06 PM »
ok, then why would it be wrong for a consultant to accurately discuss non-proprietary research unrelated to any client in a public forum?
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1453 on: July 29, 2020, 03:49:57 PM »
ok, then why would it be wrong for a consultant to accurately discuss non-proprietary research unrelated to any client in a public forum?

Given that Civis specializes in left leaning political clients (including the biden campaign), I think it's pretty safe to the tweet wasn't unrelated to at least some of their clients' interests.

Offline Spracne

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1454 on: July 29, 2020, 03:51:59 PM »
Sounds like a healthy breakup for both sides.

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1455 on: July 29, 2020, 05:11:20 PM »
ok, then why would it be wrong for a consultant to accurately discuss non-proprietary research unrelated to any client in a public forum?

Given that Civis specializes in left leaning political clients (including the biden campaign), I think it's pretty safe to the tweet wasn't unrelated to at least some of their clients' interests.

not in a consulant/client's context of interest.  like i don't know for sure, but i think it is very unlikely that he posted information or opinions that he was paid a client's money to research, and there is essentially no suggestion anywhere that that was the nature of the complaints registered by clients.

yglesias already spelled this out, but the complaints centered on him thinking and expressing something the clients felt he should not think or express, even though it is supported by quality data and analyses.

my understanding of the central thesis of yglesias' piece is that it is unhealthy for an ideology to be unconcerned with the accuracy of the precepts they espouse (and i agree, obviously).
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1456 on: July 29, 2020, 05:49:07 PM »
not in a consulant/client's context of interest.  like i don't know for sure, but i think it is very unlikely that he posted information or opinions that he was paid a client's money to research, and there is essentially no suggestion anywhere that that was the nature of the complaints registered by clients.

I'm guessing most clients would want to keep their complaints kept quiet as well.

yglesias already spelled this out, but the complaints centered on him thinking and expressing something the clients felt he should not think or express, even though it is supported by quality data and analyses.

By extension, Shor was a representative of Civis clients. there are plenty of hypotheses that are supported by quality data and analyses that campaigns and companies wouldn't want said by representatives of the campaign or company. I don't think this is a recent phenomenon. What if he had posted something like "more whites are killed by cops than blacks" or shared a poll that concluded something negative about Biden? The study he shared might be well researched and accurate, but it was the wrong thing to tweet at that moment in time given who pays his bills.


my understanding of the central thesis of yglesias' piece is that it is unhealthy for an ideology to be unconcerned with the accuracy of the precepts they espouse (and i agree, obviously).

I agree with this, too, I'm just not convinced that the issue necessarily boils down to that.

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1457 on: July 29, 2020, 07:38:38 PM »
Pretty good read.  Mildly surprised to see it on Vox.

Thought it was well written as well. Why were you surprised to see it on Vox? Critical of some liberals?
Yes.  Based on my limited perception of Vox, I wasn’t expecting it to publish a rebuke of “cancel culture” - to the extent that’s what the article is.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1458 on: July 29, 2020, 08:09:37 PM »
By extension, Shor was a representative of Civis clients. there are plenty of hypotheses that are supported by quality data and analyses that campaigns and companies wouldn't want said by representatives of the campaign or company. I don't think this is a recent phenomenon. What if he had posted something like "more whites are killed by cops than blacks" or shared a poll that concluded something negative about Biden? The study he shared might be well researched and accurate, but it was the wrong thing to tweet at that moment in time given who pays his bills.

so, there is a pretty clear and obvious distinction between communicating negative information about a client and communicating unrelated information that a client does not agree with.  i kinda don't think i really need to address that since it's an obvious red herring.

if shor had shared a study saying that more whites are killed by cops and it was accurately conveyed and part of good faith discussion and not some weird trolling thing (which i've never seen shor do), then of course that would also be appropriate.  that a thing is true being more important than that it fit a desired ideology is an overriding ethos.  it has to be.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1459 on: July 29, 2020, 11:20:25 PM »
It seems pretty clear it was interpreted as a weird trolling thing, even if it wasn't his intent, which I think is the crux

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1460 on: July 30, 2020, 12:00:22 AM »
It seems pretty clear it was interpreted as a weird trolling thing, even if it wasn't his intent, which I think is the crux
The alternative is he's a just fact sharing robot, which isn't ideal for an arm of a political campaign, either.

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1461 on: July 30, 2020, 12:56:59 AM »
Haven't read all of this, but it's really interesting and I'm leaning toward the robot theory.

https://twitter.com/EricLevitz/status/1284103371960524802

I can see why political campaigns could both value his work and not want him to say what he's saying the way he's saying it out loud

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1462 on: July 30, 2020, 08:05:15 AM »
Haven't read all of this, but it's really interesting and I'm leaning toward the robot theory.

https://twitter.com/EricLevitz/status/1284103371960524802

I can see why political campaigns could both value his work and not want him to say what he's saying the way he's saying it out loud

The mere existence of someone like that within campaigns is why I have no hope for presidents ever actually what's in the public's best interests. It was clear that Obama's presidency was nothing more than 8 years of inauthenticity. The primary thought in every decision his first term was "will this get me reelected." "Will this advance the party," was the goal of his second term. In a perverse way I admire trump for somewhat bucking this, but for the most part it's how business is done in Washington.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1463 on: July 30, 2020, 09:15:33 AM »
Trump absolutely thinks everything he does is more likely to get him re-elected.

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1464 on: July 30, 2020, 09:32:49 AM »
Trump absolutely thinks everything he does is more likely to get him re-elected.

If you take Shor's take of "Clinton lost because she didn't appeal to racists enough" at its word you can see how it does.


Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1465 on: July 31, 2020, 12:43:16 PM »
Trump absolutely thinks everything he does is more likely to get him re-elected.

Sure, but my larger point is that he isn't letting pollsters and think tanks dictate what comes out of his mouth. He believes nearly everything he says, certainly all of the things central to his campaign. He's spent the last five years saying the same crap because they aren't things polished by other people. There are many things about him that are phony, but I do think his stated positions are more authentic than Obama's or GWB's were.

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1466 on: July 31, 2020, 05:15:07 PM »
jesus rough ridin' christ.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1469 on: August 05, 2020, 08:54:08 AM »
Is she the one who profited off of classified pandemic briefing?

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1470 on: August 05, 2020, 10:09:15 AM »
Rusty beat me to it, I'm glad Loeffler unintentionally lifted the veil on the fake construct of cancel culture. And yes stone, she's the pandemic profiteer.

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1471 on: August 05, 2020, 10:30:13 AM »
It's amusing that a woman APPOINTED to a senate seat describes herself as a political outsider
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1472 on: August 05, 2020, 10:32:19 AM »
Wrong thread, dummies

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1473 on: August 07, 2020, 07:11:27 AM »
Good one, Memphis.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1474 on: August 12, 2020, 05:50:52 PM »
interesting times in the peterson family.

https://twitter.com/RationalDis/status/1293292933807058948
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."