Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?

[Yard Dog]

I think the real issue I have with most of these views (both sides of the aisle) is this complete acceptance that a certain percentage of the population will have uncontrollable urges. I think education is the best way to avoid "mistakes" and would go a long way to bring down the number of teen pregnancy and emotional issues caused by sexual interaction.

I've said this before, but Planned Parenthood isn't inherently bad no matter what the founder intended. It is there mix in the political world that is sketchy. It is my understanding that they donate money to the democratic party. . .and receive money from the government. To me that is a conflict of interest / shouldn't be allowed.

The education they disseminate is necessary because too many parts of the country still provide fear based education or abstinence only education. I prefer to believe that young people can control themselves and would make less mistakes with positive sex education that also explains the benefits of abstaining till a person is more emotionally developed.

All that said, Planned Parenthood would get my 100% support (even with their financial support of democrats) if they divested themselves entirely from the abortion market. If you are concerned with access to abortions, I would say it wouldn't bother me if PP helped raise private funds to build a separate business as long as they weren't permanently attached to it.

[AbeFroman]

Aborting a fetus is not the same as starving a 7 year old for months and then gassing him/her with their entire family.

You're such a piece of crap KSUW. Remember, Mr. High and Mighty Christian, one day God will judge you and this won't be a good look for you.

Yikes. I can tell I've struck a nerve now. I'm not sure how to respond to such poor reasoning. Ripping someone limb from limb in the womb is not as bad as gassing someone? (Recall that the Nazis created the gas chambers as a "humane" alternative.)

As for your hurling invective about God and religion, I don't think that even merits a response, except to say that this has nothing to do with Christianity or even religion per se. I think even atheists can abhor the slaughter of innocents.

Look at these kids and then try and trivialize their experience like you have been.

[star seed 7]

I don't at all agree with ksuw's viewpoint, but it seems pretty consistent. Same with the weirdos who want to force a woman to have a raper baby, at least it's consistent. I just can't fathom having that viewpoint and sitting around doing nothing while this evil continues. That's where the viewpoint becomes dishonest

[Yard Dog]

Aborting a fetus is not the same as starving a 7 year old for months and then gassing him/her with their entire family.

You're such a piece of crap KSUW. Remember, Mr. High and Mighty Christian, one day God will judge you and this won't be a good look for you.

Yikes. I can tell I've struck a nerve now. I'm not sure how to respond to such poor reasoning. Ripping someone limb from limb in the womb is not as bad as gassing someone? (Recall that the Nazis created the gas chambers as a "humane" alternative.)

As for your hurling invective about God and religion, I don't think that even merits a response, except to say that this has nothing to do with Christianity or even religion per se. I think even atheists can abhor the slaughter of innocents.

Look at these kids and then try and trivialize their experience like you have been.

I know this is going to come across petty to you, but those pictured had a chance to live. Though, they did suffer. Is the chance to live less important than avoiding suffering? I think that a lot of people support abortion because the children would suffer from neglect and suffer because of it. To the point of the holocaust, any baby, no matter what family he/she is born into in the United States, may have a much better life than those pictured above, but might experience the same fate.

When it comes to what a human deserves, it is a fighting chance? OR is it the comforting hand of murder to avoid suffering.

[Institutional Control]

I don't at all agree with ksuw's viewpoint, but it seems pretty consistent. Same with the weirdos who want to force a woman to have a raper baby, at least it's consistent. I just can't fathom having that viewpoint and sitting around doing nothing while this evil continues. That's where the viewpoint becomes dishonest

Because it's a talking point for k-s-u and not a real issue for him.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Look at these kids and then try and trivialize their experience like you have been.

I'm not trivializing holocaust victims by comparing them to abortion victims. Both are horrific acts. I could post all sorts of horrific abortion photos, but you and I know that isn't really necessary. You made a stupid point, and you should move on.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

I think an update to the scorecard is long over due. The following is my best effort at condensing down all the idiotic pro-abortion arguments in the past 61 pages into one easy to read reference.

1. At the exact moment you exit the womb, that's when the birth fairy magically transforms you from a clump of cells into a human being worthy of protection - lib7

2. Well duh, that's why we celebrate birthdays! - Trim

3. "The government has no more obligation to protect people in the womb than they do people in Mexico. You don't get citizenship until birth." - RATM (I still really like this one )

4. States don't charge murderers of pregnant women with double murder because of the baby - it's because the dad is also a victim! - Also RATM (Rage went on a hot streak early on)

5. But abortion is legal! - RATM and CNS (thanks captains obvious - that's not what we're discussing)

6. Planned Parenthood would shut down if it couldn't provide abortion - Mrs. G (why do you assume that?)

7. The Supreme Court already decided this - CNS (no, not really)

8. Abortions are only a very small amount of the services Planned Parenthood provides - CNS ( yeah, kinda like how Major League Baseball is in the hot dog business because it sells way more hotdogs than baseball games)

9. Those undercover videos are "heavily edited" - CNS (like every other TV media piece, except the CfMP also made the full versions available online)

10. You just don't like abortion because it's gross, but so is open heart surgery! - Lib7, Mocat, Roid (yup, no difference between the objectives of those procedures - none at all)

11. And autopsies! (see above)

12. IT'S FOR THE GREATER GOOD!! - Sundance (I'm sure that's what any conquering tribe/army throughout history has thought as they tossed the babies in the river - it doesn't make it true or any less barbaric)

UPDATE

13. Planned Parenthood receives no federal funds to provide abortion - that money is kept in the special "abortion pocket" which is like, totally separate from the contraception pocket. - lib7 (Except money is fungible; funding one with tax dollars frees up other money for abortion, similar to how sending foreign aid to the Palestinians helps the PLO spend its money on terrorism).

14. Who's the judge - let God sort it out! - Rage (we pass laws to judge all sorts of things in society and protect human life, like murder)

15. Who's a man to judge? -Rusty (start here for dumbassery of this cop out: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/10/i-don-t-know-if-i-m-pro-choice-anymore.html#)

16. Abortion is every bit as much a constitutional right as gun ownership - MIR (except one is actually written in the Constitution, not added by a couple of dudes in black robes about 200 years later)

17. It's for the GREATER GOOD - SDK (yeah I know we already covered this one, but SDK went back to the well for a few more pages - still never made a convincing argument)

18. About 10,000 per year will be killed by back alley abortions if abortion is banned - MrsG (a laughably absurd number debunked by comparing to total deaths of women of childbearing age)

19. If you criminalize abortion, you'd also have to criminalize miscarriage -Bill Nye and assorts Pit'rs who tried to defend him

20. We shouldn't be in the business of legislating morality - Rage (we do it all the time - see murder - that's what we do in society)

21. If you really think abortion is as bad as murder, you should be taking up arms to oppose it, hypocrite!!! -Lib7 (Page 32)

22. People die all the time from things like pollution and that's not murder, why is abortion any different? -ChuckJames (this was actually said, not in jest)

23. I totally believe this "study" that 100,000 - 240,000 women in Texas tried at home abortions after clinics were shut down - Edna (apply some common sense instead of believing laughably absurd numbers)

24. If we're going to restrict abortion we should restrict Viagra - CNS (CNS might have been joking, but I can't tell for sure)

25. My friend got a Pap Smear at Planned Parenthood, so I support their abortion practice - Honest Abe

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Finally, here is the Page 32 discussion (which is actually one of the more interesting arguments made, but still lacking)....

ksuw, how are you not morally ok with people killing abortion doctors (and really the women getting abortions as well)?  seems disingenuous to equate abortion in america to the holocaust, but not be ok with stopping the people responsible by physical force.

just wondering, thanks

I can't speak for KSUW, but for me, it's pretty simple: I am not in favor of anyone taking anyone else's life.

You're fairly consistent here, but ksuw is pro death penalty and def on the "turn the middle east to glass" side, so I don't think your answer applies to him.

It's an interesting philosophical question I've considered before. First, as you allude to above, I do not believe it is always immoral to kill human life. War is not always immoral, nor is the death penalty, nor is killing as absolutely necessary to defend yourself or others.

So let's start with when I believe that killing another human life is moral, and then use that to answer your question. I believe that killing a human life is moral if it is absolutely necessary to protect against the loss of your own life or the lives of others (self-defense), when there is a reasonable chance that such killing, and only killing, will prevent a greater loss of life and/or suffering (some wars), and as justice through a fair and impartial legal system.

In my opinion, anti-abortion violence doesn't fit in any of these categories. Let's start with the easy one - it certainly isn't justice through a fair and impartial legal system. But in my opinion anti-abortion violence doesn't fit in the other categories either, because (1) killing one abortionist isn't likely to save many innocent lives, if any (the women will almost certainly abort, anyway), and (2) there are peaceful and more effective means of preventing abortion. I don't think anyone can seriously disagree that the peaceful pro-life movement (which is the vast majority), aided by advances in imaging technology, have been far more successful in shifting public opinion and reducing abortion than violence.

[star seed 7]

Just sit around while a holocaust is going on for 40 years, nbd

[DQ12]

Just sit around while a holocaust is going on for 40 years, nbd

Agreed.  It is universally accepted that John Brown and his ilk were the only true abolotionists.  Anyone merely arguing against slavery prior to the civil war was being disingenuous.

[star seed 7]

Just sit around while a holocaust is going on for 40 years, nbd

Agreed.  It is universally accepted that John Brown and his ilk were the only true abolotionists.  Anyone merely arguing against slavery prior to the civil war was being disingenuous.

I like your point, let me think on it for a bit

[DQ12]

Just sit around while a holocaust is going on for 40 years, nbd

Agreed.  It is universally accepted that John Brown and his ilk were the only true abolotionists.  Anyone merely arguing against slavery prior to the civil war was being disingenuous.

I like your point, let me think on it for a bit

Don't think too hard because I don't think your issue is all that complicated on a philosophical level. 

We all agree that countless atrocities exist throughout the world and have existed throughout the world since pretty much always.  I think people can recognize them as wrongs without having the moral burden to resort to any sort of sustained action (especially some form of vigilante violence which you suggested - which is obviously ridiculous).  I think it's absolutely morally permissible for people to say "hey I think this is really, really wrong and should be changed" and then leave it at that.  Disagree, call me lazy, or disingenuous or whatever, but any other argument requires you to either (1) be John Brown, or (2) be 100% okay with everything happening in the world.

Practically, people do take action to correct perceived wrongs (i.e. gun violence, abortion, racist cops, etc.), but in a more sane (albeit less dramatic) manner:  voting and protesting and arguing about it.

Obviously this has little to do with the merits of abortion, but I just think your "why aren't you people reacting violently?!" argument sucks.

[Institutional Control]

You can be anti-abortion and not spend your nights and weekends picketing abortion clinics and shaming women entering said clinics. You're being complicit if you truly believe abortion in the US is at the same level as the Holocaust and you're not doing everything you can to stop it.

Would you react violently if they started rounding up Jewish people in the US and taking them to ovens?

[AbeFroman]

25. My friend got a Pap Smear at Planned Parenthood, so I support their abortion practice - Honest Abe

So where is the Christian alternative to Planned Parenthood? If there was another organization helping out low income women with necessary health screenings then I see why Planned Parenthood might not need support. Instead of coming up with a solution you just want to shut down the only option.

[star seed 7]

I'm too ignorant of history or the time period to really speak to the feelings of idle abolitionists. Would they disown slaves that revolted or ran away?

And to be clear, I'm not say every Anti-abortion person needs to commit violence to be serious. Your "I don't want anyone killing anyone" thing is perfectly consistent with the hearts and minds approach ksuw pretends to support.

I'm similar to ksuw and am a little more liberal with justified killing. For example I believe strongly that the health insurance industry as a whole is immoral, but it doesn't rise to the violence level for me. Now say child rape is legal and there were planned child rape centers all over the country. Now I'm not personally a violent person so I don't know that I could commit violence, but I certainly would support those that committed it against people that ran planned child rape centers.

Ksuw claims to not support killing, what in his view are, admitted mass murderers, and I think he's either lying to look compassionate or he doesn't actually think abortion doctors are mass murderers.

[SdK]

Why didn't you add my agree to disagree and well wishes to the scorecard?

[SdK]

Trying to rope me back in I see! Not gonna happen KSU! Have a great day.

[Dr Rick Daris]

I used to be super pro abortion but now I'm kind of on the fence and in general it just makes me sad people want to do it. there are tons of humans out there that are looking to adopt. own the mistake and give the baby that you conceived to someone that wants it. anyway that's kind of where I'm at. I guess it should be legal or whatever but dang. 

[Dr Rick Daris]

the only thing really going for abortion and it's probably already been mentioned in this thread are that we get less dumbasses born from dumbasses. that makes America a little better for those of us that aren't dumbasses.

[star seed 7]

I used to be super pro abortion but now I'm kind of on the fence and in general it just makes me sad people want to do it. there are tons of humans out there that are looking to adopt. own the mistake and give the baby that you conceived to someone that wants it. anyway that's kind of where I'm at. I guess it should be legal or whatever but dang. 

There are tons of humans out there looking to be adopted too

[DQ12]

Ksuw claims to not support killing, what in his view are, admitted mass murderers, and I think he's either lying to look compassionate or he doesn't actually think abortion doctors are mass murderers.

But people can't just go around killing those who commit (what they perceive to be) horrible, but legal acts -- especially if the acts' morality is as complex as abortion.  That's something an insane person would do.  What would that universal imperative look like? 

Your child-rape center scenario is apples and oranges (as are the holocaust comparisons, on any level other than the body count).  In our world, no one debates child rape's morality.  So if I'm to jump into your hypothetical universe, I'm jumping into a universe where child rape IS ACTUALLY complicated on a moral level, and (based on that assumption) I'd stick to my guns.  If rational minds can disagree on the morality of something, people should go through rational methods of seeking change. 

Your position boxes you into acting like a psychopath. 

[star seed 7]

Ksuw claims to not support killing, what in his view are, admitted mass murderers, and I think he's either lying to look compassionate or he doesn't actually think abortion doctors are mass murderers.

But people can't just go around killing those who commit (what they perceive to be) horrible, but legal acts -- especially if the acts' morality is as complex as abortion.  That's something an insane person would do.  What would that universal imperative look like? 

Your child-rape center scenario is apples and oranges (as are the holocaust comparisons, on any level other than the body count).  In our world, no one debates child rape's morality.  So if I'm to jump into your hypothetical universe, I'm jumping into a universe where child rape IS ACTUALLY complicated on a moral level, and (based on that assumption) I'd stick to my guns.  If rational minds can disagree on the morality of something, people should go through rational methods of seeking change. 

Your position boxes you into acting like a psychopath.

For ksuw there is no valid debate over the complexity of abortion.

[SdK]

the only thing really going for abortion and it's probably already been mentioned in this thread are that we get less dumbasses born from dumbasses. that makes America a little better for those of us that aren't dumbasses.

KSU is gonna get you so hard for this. He didn't like my greater good argument either.

[Dr Rick Daris]

the only thing really going for abortion and it's probably already been mentioned in this thread are that we get less dumbasses born from dumbasses. that makes America a little better for those of us that aren't dumbasses.

KSU is gonna get you so hard for this. He didn't like my greater good argument either.

I'm not sure that anyone can make a good argument for more dumbasses but I don't control the mic

[Cartierfor3]

the only thing really going for abortion and it's probably already been mentioned in this thread are that we get less dumbasses born from dumbasses. that makes America a little better for those of us that aren't dumbasses.

a person's dumbassness or level of how much they inconvenience you with their dumbassary isn't a measure of their worth.