Author Topic: White is the New Black  (Read 25221 times)

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Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #125 on: June 19, 2015, 01:48:56 PM »
The lady also lied about being a model...but that's pretty small compared to her other lies. It's not as bad as Fanning saying he worked in "education".

Offline sys

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #126 on: June 19, 2015, 06:45:45 PM »
You really don't know the difference between someone struggling with gender identity their entire life and making a decision in their mid 60's to very publicly live as a different gender than she was identified by for her entire life and someone who just decided to be black for shits and giggles? Dolezal sued Howard University as a freaking adult because she felt she was discriminated against for being white. Then just a few years earlier made false hate crime claims as a "black" person. GMAFB with acting like these two are anything alike, shame on you.

Also you certainly know the difference between brave and heroic right? I hope you're trolling, it would hurt my heart to have to call you stupid.

i don't troll.

you are making an assumption that dolezal chose to identify as black for shits and giggles.  that assumption is unwarranted, and i'm also fairly confident that it is incorrect.

i have no problem with jenner choosing whatever identity he wants, or altering his body in whatever way he wants.  i hope it provides him some relief for whatever pain his identity issues have caused him.  i don't think it was particularly courageous.  at least not in an admirable, exemplary way that is suitable of honoring by award.  i suppose being a reality tv star is courageous in its own way as well - certainly having a camera follow me around all day knowing they intend to air the footage would terrify me no end.  but i don't think that type of courage is something to be celebrated.

the analogy to dolezal is closer than you're admitting.  i don't consider her to be admirable either.  but i find it hard to accept that race is a less mutable part of one's identity that sex or gender.  indeed, if america thinks that, i'd find it a ver sad commentary on america.
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Offline sys

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #127 on: June 19, 2015, 06:47:34 PM »
Do you seriously not know that people who transition are encouraged to seek psychological help and most doctors in America that perform reassignment surgery won't do it until the patient has had some help?

Maybe you should read a bit more before you keep opening your mouth about this :dunno:

yes, i do know that.  do the people lionizing jenner know that?
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Offline renocat

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #128 on: June 19, 2015, 06:49:46 PM »
Let's put the Spokane Sister on the new $10 bill.  It will be the first black, women, and mental illness patient on a US paper bill.

Offline Jabeez

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #129 on: June 19, 2015, 07:34:44 PM »
You really don't know the difference between someone struggling with gender identity their entire life and making a decision in their mid 60's to very publicly live as a different gender than she was identified by for her entire life and someone who just decided to be black for shits and giggles? Dolezal sued Howard University as a freaking adult because she felt she was discriminated against for being white. Then just a few years earlier made false hate crime claims as a "black" person. GMAFB with acting like these two are anything alike, shame on you.

Also you certainly know the difference between brave and heroic right? I hope you're trolling, it would hurt my heart to have to call you stupid.

i don't troll.

you are making an assumption that dolezal chose to identify as black for shits and giggles.  that assumption is unwarranted, and i'm also fairly confident that it is incorrect.

i have no problem with jenner choosing whatever identity he wants, or altering his body in whatever way he wants.  i hope it provides him some relief for whatever pain his identity issues have caused him.  i don't think it was particularly courageous.  at least not in an admirable, exemplary way that is suitable of honoring by award.  i suppose being a reality tv star is courageous in its own way as well - certainly having a camera follow me around all day knowing they intend to air the footage would terrify me no end.  but i don't think that type of courage is something to be celebrated.

the analogy to dolezal is closer than you're admitting.  i don't consider her to be admirable either.  but i find it hard to accept that race is a less mutable part of one's identity that sex or gender.  indeed, if america thinks that, i'd find it a ver sad commentary on america.
Pretty rational and logical viewpoint, sys.

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #130 on: June 19, 2015, 09:54:22 PM »
You really don't know the difference between someone struggling with gender identity their entire life and making a decision in their mid 60's to very publicly live as a different gender than she was identified by for her entire life and someone who just decided to be black for shits and giggles? Dolezal sued Howard University as a freaking adult because she felt she was discriminated against for being white. Then just a few years earlier made false hate crime claims as a "black" person. GMAFB with acting like these two are anything alike, shame on you.

Also you certainly know the difference between brave and heroic right? I hope you're trolling, it would hurt my heart to have to call you stupid.

i don't troll.

you are making an assumption that dolezal chose to identify as black for shits and giggles.  that assumption is unwarranted, and i'm also fairly confident that it is incorrect.

i have no problem with jenner choosing whatever identity he wants, or altering his body in whatever way he wants.  i hope it provides him some relief for whatever pain his identity issues have caused him.  i don't think it was particularly courageous.  at least not in an admirable, exemplary way that is suitable of honoring by award.  i suppose being a reality tv star is courageous in its own way as well - certainly having a camera follow me around all day knowing they intend to air the footage would terrify me no end.  but i don't think that type of courage is something to be celebrated.

the analogy to dolezal is closer than you're admitting.  i don't consider her to be admirable either.  but i find it hard to accept that race is a less mutable part of one's identity that sex or gender.  indeed, if america thinks that, i'd find it a ver sad commentary on america.

Unwarranted speculation, lol. Other speculations I've made in the same realm: the sun is hot, a bullet fired from a gun would hurt to be shot with, people who are nuclear physicists are at worst reasonably intelligent, and Comet isn't delicious. I can't take your viewpoint on this seriously because you refuse to acknowledge the role that Dolezeal suing Howard University for discrimination against her as a white woman plays in your silly Jenner parallel.

Also I'm confused as to why you keep melding the conversation of courage and whether Caitlin Jenner should be receiving an award. Of course it's courageous to tell the world you're transgendered, is this even a doubt? Did I transform into a world where transgendered people are universally accepted? It is courageous for an accountant who lives in Brooklyn and it's courageous for someone who has been an Olympic hero and a public figure as a man for nearly 40 years. I legitimately don't care whether or not he gets an ESPY, Emmy, Tony, Country Music Award, whatever; to me it's completely trivial, getting the award isn't going to change her life. This seems to be like arguing whether or not you like Colin Cowherd. I can make arguments against Peter Frates and Lauren Hill, but why would I?

And knock it off with this race is more mutable than gender bs. No one itt has even attempted to make that argument as a matter of fact with regards to this situation I haven't heard anyone attempt to approach this nationally. You are the one who decided to interject the false flag of gender here. This story is about a person who perpetuated a fraud not someone who struggled for a lifetime to figure out whether or not they want to reveal their true self to the world.

Offline sys

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #131 on: June 20, 2015, 02:54:03 PM »
Unwarranted speculation, lol. Other speculations I've made in the same realm: the sun is hot, a bullet fired from a gun would hurt to be shot with, people who are nuclear physicists are at worst reasonably intelligent, and Comet isn't delicious.

you have no evidence from which to conclude that dolezal is not sincere in her preference to identify as black.  it merely does not suit you to do so.


I can't take your viewpoint on this seriously because you refuse to acknowledge the role that Dolezeal suing Howard University for discrimination against her as a white woman plays in your silly Jenner parallel.

i didn't address it because it is irrelevant.  you don't state here in what way you think that it is relevant, so i'm forced to guess at your thought process.  i'll credit you with at least not making the same ridiculous objection that mrs. gooch and michigancat raised (zomg, she knew she was white!).  in the absence of your own arguments, i'll assume you are simply raising the point that previous to claiming an identity as black, she publicly acknowledged her identity as white and acted in that capacity and within that identity for most of her life.  this too is irrelevant in distinguishing her situation from jenner's.  jenner also acknowledged his identity as male and acted as such in many stereotypically male endeavors throughout his life.  their behaviors in not consistently rejecting the identities society bestowed upon them does not, in and of itself, make their later expressions of preference for other identities hypocritical or illegitimate.  the objection to dolezal having lived as white is about as ridiculous as claiming jenner was fraudulent in competing in athletic events as a male when he felt himself to be female.


Also I'm confused as to why you keep melding the conversation of courage and whether Caitlin Jenner should be receiving an award.

it was an award for courage or bravery or something like that.


Of course it's courageous to tell the world you're transgendered, is this even a doubt? Did I transform into a world where transgendered people are universally accepted?

if you judge by the reactions, both on this messageboard, and what i've encountered of reactions off the board, manifesting yourself as transgender is far more accepted than claiming a race which conflicts with your genetic origin.  perhaps you should reread both threads to note the difference.  if there is no doubt of the courage it takes to claim a transgender identity, how can you argue that it is not more courageous to claim an even less accepted identity?


And knock it off with this race is more mutable than gender bs. No one itt has even attempted to make that argument as a matter of fact with regards to this situation I haven't heard anyone attempt to approach this nationally.

you are right, no one here has had the courage or intellectual honesty to make that argument.  instead the evidence that posters here consider it to be true is manifested in how they've lauded jenner's claim of an identity that conflicts with his biological sex and attacked dolezal for claiming an identity that conflicts with her biological race.  actions speak more truthfully than arguments.


This story is about a person who perpetuated a fraud not someone who struggled for a lifetime to figure out whether or not they want to reveal their true self to the world.

fraud vs "true self".  no, clearly you don't find gender to be more mutable than race.  gmafb.
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Offline slobber

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #132 on: June 20, 2015, 03:09:08 PM »
Do you think somebody that identified themselves as transgender is aware of their physical sex?


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Offline renocat

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #133 on: June 20, 2015, 03:26:42 PM »
Do you think somebody that identified themselves as transgender is aware of their physical sex?


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Offline michigancat

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #134 on: June 20, 2015, 05:07:38 PM »
Quote
if you judge by the reactions, both on this messageboard, and what i've encountered of reactions off the board, manifesting yourself as transgender is far more accepted than claiming a race which conflicts with your genetic origin.  perhaps you should reread both threads to note the difference.  if there is no doubt of the courage it takes to claim a transgender identity, how can you argue that it is not more courageous to claim an even less accepted identity?

FWIW, I don't believe I've made a strong stance on the comparisons of Jenner vs. Dolezal. I know nothing about transracial people or their struggles (or even if it is a scientifically documented condition), but their struggle very well may be similar to that of transgendered people. I'm willing to learn more if you or K-S-U would like to genuinely share.

I think a lot of the differences in reactions on this board are because

a) people know more about the struggles of being transgendered versus being transracial
b) Jenner was extremely well-known while no one had heard of Dolezal.
c) the bizarre nature of Dolezal's story. If she had just had some random office job while being transracial or been upfront about her transracial condition with both the NAACP and University or not allegedly lied about hate crimes against her, this is pretty much a non-story, just like it's a non-story for thousands of transgenders who lead relatively simple lives.


Offline sys

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #135 on: June 20, 2015, 05:29:45 PM »
people know more about the struggles of being transgendered versus being transracial

i have no doubt that much (most? virtually all?) of the difference can be ascribed to people having been told that they should support transgender identity and having never been told the same of people that claim a racial identity other than their own.
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Offline michigancat

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #136 on: June 20, 2015, 05:39:48 PM »
people know more about the struggles of being transgendered versus being transracial

i have no doubt that much (most? virtually all?) of the difference can be ascribed to people having been told that they should support transgender identity and having never been told the same of people that claim a racial identity other than their own.

Perhaps. And that may be because being transgender is better understood. I actually know a few transgendered folks personally but don't know of anyone who identifies as trans racial. I hadn't even heard of it before this week.

And that's quite an assumption from someone who chastised anyone who questioned Dolezal's motivations

Offline slobber

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #137 on: June 20, 2015, 05:48:49 PM »
Mrs. Gooch, she knows she is white or she is dealing with something that goes far beyond being transracial.


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Offline sys

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #138 on: June 20, 2015, 06:11:17 PM »
And that may be because being transgender is better understood.

what difference does it make if it is a common and well understood phenomenon or if dolezal is unique in her identity preference?
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Offline michigancat

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #139 on: June 20, 2015, 06:28:56 PM »


And that may be because being transgender is better understood.

what difference does it make if it is a common and well understood phenomenon or if dolezal is unique in her identity preference?

People are more likely to develop opinions about issues they understand and are relatively widespread. I personally try not to take a strong stance on issues I know virtually nothing about. And yes, I would like to read several different opinions (and factual articles) about transracial people before I take a strong stance on Dolezal.

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #140 on: June 20, 2015, 06:31:34 PM »


And that may be because being transgender is better understood.

what difference does it make if it is a common and well understood phenomenon or if dolezal is unique in her identity preference?

People are more likely to develop opinions about issues they understand and are relatively widespread. I personally try not to take a strong stance on issues I know virtually nothing about. And yes, I would like to read several different opinions (and factual articles) about transracial people before I take a strong stance on Dolezal.


my go to in situations like this is "it's maybe weird, but harmless, so who cares"
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Offline sys

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #141 on: June 20, 2015, 06:32:36 PM »
you should have the capacity to think critically about any given situation and generate an opinion that is logically consistent with your other opinions without waiting to see how others view the situation.
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Offline Kat Kid

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White is the New Black
« Reply #142 on: June 20, 2015, 06:43:55 PM »
I am jumping in late and don't really have much to offer but had trouble with the notion that classifying human behavior as a disease because it doesn't promote procreation or advance the species is really dumb science first of all, but also seems to fundamentally misunderstand the human condition.  How is this not immediately obvious?

What percentage of people really believe that their highest purpose is to procreate?  The Duggars maybe?

I generally try to give people wide latitude to live their lives, raise their children and behave in their own way.  The Earth has a tremendous amount of disagreement on all kinds of first principles and while it goes without saying that I live my life according to my own code, I don't really see how it is universally applicable or would even be good if everyone applied my standards.  Disagree with Kant here, because context matters and people should be free to pursue selfish and counter-productive lives when viewed through a purely utilitarian lens and unless it is really, really harmful to society they should be free to pursue that and deal with their own consequences.

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #143 on: June 20, 2015, 06:44:51 PM »
what i find more interesting is how transracial/transgender/transwhatever reinforces stereotypes.  how do males show they are female?  by wearing dresses, heels, and make up.  how do you show you're black now?  weaves and frizzy afros. 

i don't know where i'm going with that, but it's interesting to me
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Offline michigancat

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #144 on: June 20, 2015, 06:49:51 PM »


you should have the capacity to think critically about any given situation and generate an opinion that is logically consistent with your other opinions without waiting to see how others view the situation.

I absolutely can and often do, but I shouldn't take a strong stance without knowing any facts about the issue.

And I don't see anything wrong with seeing various opinions on an issue before developing my own. I like to be swayed.

Offline sys

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #145 on: June 20, 2015, 06:52:54 PM »
ok, michigancat.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #146 on: June 20, 2015, 06:59:47 PM »
You know I have been swayed by your opinion before, sys.

Offline sys

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #147 on: June 20, 2015, 07:00:53 PM »
i just wanted you to see how annoying that kind of response is.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #148 on: June 20, 2015, 07:11:55 PM »
OK

Offline sys

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Re: White is the New Black
« Reply #149 on: June 20, 2015, 07:14:37 PM »
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."