White is the New Black

[Spracne]

The biggest issue I have is the lying, which was done for material gain, and the comparisons to transgender.  I think she is purposefully muddying the waters to avoid penalties, or just looking like a piece of crap in general, and it hurts other social groups with more legitimate issues.

Right.  I haven't seen a lot of hard evidence that proves she intentionally lied, but in any case if the NAACP supports her, then a fraud charge would not stick.  They could easily argue that the misrepresentation of race was not material, or that they did not suffer injury as a result, or that they did not rely on the truth of her misrepresentation in hiring her.  It would actually be pretty funny for an organization to admit under oath that had they known she was white, they wouldn't have hired her. 

She told people some black guy was her dad.  Now she says he was a "father figure."  She told her brother to STFU about her being white when he visited.  I think I read she checked untrue boxes on race on applications.

Regardless, I would love to see that trial.

I read the BOMBSHELL article when this story blew up, but a lot of the allegations seemed like hearsay, or at the very least were not yet substantiated by physical evidence.  Is there any evidence of the post on Facebook of the black guy as her dad, other than what her adopted brother (who hates her) thinks he remembered seeing? 

[Mrs. Gooch]

The biggest issue I have is the lying, which was done for material gain, and the comparisons to transgender.  I think she is purposefully muddying the waters to avoid penalties, or just looking like a piece of crap in general, and it hurts other social groups with more legitimate issues.

Right.  I haven't seen a lot of hard evidence that proves she intentionally lied, but in any case if the NAACP supports her, then a fraud charge would not stick.  They could easily argue that the misrepresentation of race was not material, or that they did not suffer injury as a result, or that they did not rely on the truth of her misrepresentation in hiring her.  It would actually be pretty funny for an organization to admit under oath that had they known she was white, they wouldn't have hired her. 

She told people some black guy was her dad.  Now she says he was a "father figure."  She told her brother to STFU about her being white when he visited.  I think I read she checked untrue boxes on race on applications.

Regardless, I would love to see that trial.

I read the BOMBSHELL article when this story blew up, but a lot of the allegations seemed like hearsay, or at the very least were not yet substantiated by physical evidence.  Is there any evidence of the post on Facebook of the black guy as her dad, other than what her adopted brother (who hates her) thinks he remembered seeing?

She claimed some hate crimes that are probably not true, including hate mail that didn't even go through the postal service (i.e. someone with a key to the box put it in there).

[Spracne]

Oh yeah. Forgot about that.  I'd be interested to hear her response to that.  Did she file a police report, or did she just tell people about it?

[Mrs. Gooch]

Oh yeah. Forgot about that.  I'd be interested to hear her response to that.  Did she file a police report, or did she just tell people about it?

There were police reports because the police said that in light of recent events, they are suspending all investigations.

[Spracne]

Oh yeah. Forgot about that.  I'd be interested to hear her response to that.  Did she file a police report, or did she just tell people about it?

There were police reports because the police said that in light of recent events, they are suspending all investigations.

What?

[Mrs. Gooch]

Oh yeah. Forgot about that.  I'd be interested to hear her response to that.  Did she file a police report, or did she just tell people about it?

There were police reports because the police said that in light of recent events, they are suspending all investigations.

What?

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/06/14/naacp-leader-hate-crime-complaints-segment-harlow.cnn-ap

[CNS]

The comparo to Jenner is dumb.  This lady is seems like she might be mentally damaged.  I mean, the race thing is whatevs, but the other stuff that she built around that seems like it may just be insanity.

Also, the only damage that the NAACP could maybe claim would be how stupid she made them look by this being leaked. 

She either needs help or a podcast.  I would listen to that weekly. 

[Spracne]

but...from 2 days ago: "Separately, Dolezal has said she received threatening hate mail in the past, but the Spokane Police Department told CNN's Poppy Harlow that it dropped its investigation of the letters because of a lack of leads.

The investigation was dropped before the controversy about her race became public."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/15/us/washington-rachel-dolezal-naacp/

[sys]

I don't think someone can choose race just as they can't choose gender identity or sexuality.  Science shows that there can be a disconnect between sexuality and gender.  Science doesn't justify the same disconnect on race for me.

"science" hasn't shown that there can be a disconnect between sex (i think you mean sex, not sexuality), at least no science that you have mentioned in this thread.  the fact that males and females have distinct brain characters does not imply that a disconnect between how someone perceives their own gender and their biological sex exist.  all it does is suggest a hypothesis (again, i insert the caveat i restrict my comments to the scientific observations that you have presented in this thread, since i am not well versed on the subject matter) that might explain the origin of empirical observations of such disconnections.

your comment on disconnects in racial identity makes little sense unless you are arguing that dolezal is lying about her preferred racial identity.

As far as this particular case goes, Dolezal has consistently lied about her upbringing which to me shows that she doesn't really believe it is something that you can choose.

one of the things that makes this case interesting to me is that i perceive dolezal to be sincere in her preference to be considered black.  i do not perceive her to be doing so for ulterior motives, or to be misrepresenting that preference.  i would consider her lies about her parentage to be her realizing that society would not accept her preference for being black if simultaneously confronted with her european ancestry, and inventing a story that allow society's perception of her to correspond to her own preference, rather than something that she needed to invent in order for her to allow herself to believe she is black, which i believe is what you are suggesting.

[sys]

i think it is perfectly possible to separate the issues of her being more deceitful than is typical, her having familial conflicts, her perhaps having other psychological issues and her preferring to identify as black.  there may be some areas where those issues interconnect, but they are not necessarily fundamentally related, imo.

[michigancat]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/06/15/rachel-dolezal-sued-howard-for-racial-discrimination-because-she-was-white/

[ChiComCat]

I meant that science shows a basis - I was overstating in saying that science shows the disconnect. 

I think her situation/story is interesting enough without involving Caitlyn Jenner for some reason.

[Rage Against the McKee]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/06/15/rachel-dolezal-sued-howard-for-racial-discrimination-because-she-was-white/

It's a hard world out there for white people. No wonder she decided to become black.

[sys]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/06/15/rachel-dolezal-sued-howard-for-racial-discrimination-because-she-was-white/

michigancat is the new luke.

[michigancat]

to me that is evidence that she's pretty self-aware that she wasn't black

[sys]

I meant that science shows a basis - I was overstating in saying that science shows the disconnect. 

I think her situation/story is interesting enough without involving Caitlyn Jenner for some reason.

yes, it suggests a possible hypothesis.  the lack of an identical hypothesis for a disconnect between preferred racial identity and ancestry, does not imply that such a disconnect is not real.  i understood you to be making the argument that it did.  the disconnect is an observable phenomenon, its existence is implied by direct observation.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

All people who believe they are something they are not, to the point where they don't even believe their own birth certificate probably should.

not to jump immediately to the most recent hackneyed news event - but a logical extension of that statement would be that the condition of being transgender is a psychological disease.

I mean, believing you are the opposite gender that you physiologically are seems like a psychological disease to me

I agree - or at least a "disorder." Not sure the difference bw those two terms. It is counter to the biological imperative of procreation. But that same rationale applies to homosexuality, and that will really piss some people off.

But again, being transgender, transsexual, or whatever other stupid term they've concocted is a disorder. It is most certainly not "the new normal."

And I also agree that, as mumped up as Jenner is, at least he's not lying about being a dude in terms of hardware - but he really can't, can he? Something tells me he would have lied just like this chick if he thought he could get away with it.

[sys]

to me that is evidence that she's pretty self-aware that she wasn't black

a)  what a novel observation!  unprecedented.  unique.
b)  desiring/undergoing surgery to alter one's primary and/or secondary sex characteristics also provides evidence that the subject of the surgery is aware that their biological sex does not correspond to the gender identity they prefer.

[michigancat]

to me that is evidence that she's pretty self-aware that she wasn't black

a)  what a novel observation!  unprecedented.  unique.
b)  desiring/undergoing surgery to alter one's primary and/or secondary sex characteristics also provides evidence that the subject of the surgery is aware that their biological sex does not correspond to the gender identity they prefer.

OK sys

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

to me that is evidence that she's pretty self-aware that she wasn't black

a)  what a novel observation!  unprecedented.  unique.
b)  desiring/undergoing surgery to alter one's primary and/or secondary sex characteristics also provides evidence that the subject of the surgery is aware that their biological sex does not correspond to the gender identity they prefer.

Is that even a debate? Are there really people who think they are biologically women and freaked out about why they have that penis dangling down there? That would be confusing.

[8manpick]

All people who believe they are something they are not, to the point where they don't even believe their own birth certificate probably should.

not to jump immediately to the most recent hackneyed news event - but a logical extension of that statement would be that the condition of being transgender is a psychological disease.

I mean, believing you are the opposite gender that you physiologically are seems like a psychological disease to me

I agree - or at least a "disorder." Not sure the difference bw those two terms. It is counter to the biological imperative of procreation. But that same rationale applies to homosexuality, and that will really piss some people off.

I'm not sure the biological imperative of procreation is relevant in this sense.  After all, oscar Jenner can identify as a lesbian woman and procreate.  I mean, that is what he actually did.

I think there is a significant distinction between preferring the same gender as a sexual partner and identifying ones gender as different than the physiological gender.

[sys]

Is that even a debate? Are there really people who think they are biologically women and freaked out about why they have that penis dangling down there? That would be confusing.

michigancat occasionally gets sidetracked into logical dead-ends.  i love pointing those out.

[michigancat]

I misread this in a meeting:

one of the things that makes this case interesting to me is that i perceive dolezal to be sincere in her preference to be considered black.

and thought you were saying she genuinely thought she was black. but I still think the lawsuit muddies things a bit and makes me think she may have motivations beyond just preferring to be considered black.

[sys]

makes me think she may have motivations beyond just preferring to be considered black.

at the risk of playing at untrained armchair psychiatrist, i think she has an attraction/need to be/or be seen to be a victim.  i suspect that being/pretending to be a black woman was something that facilitated that need.

[Jabeez]

My cousin went to high school with Dozeal and Dozeal was a patient of her dental practice as well. Cuz says, "she's always been a nutcase" So I'm guessing psychological issues arent new with her.

While she could very well be a strong advocate for racial justice, she probably didnt need to completely dismiss her past and fabricate a new one.  And if she didnt lie, would she not have been as effective at her jobs?

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