White is the New Black

[michigancat]

I'd say bees are actually pretty good farmers.

But how many air jordans have they made?

Zero, and I could squish about a million bees with a pair of Jordan's. Advantage: humans.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Somebody needs to teach those bees how to farm or read. Then they wouldn't have to worry about reproducing.

Bees that could farm and read would probably put an end to humanity. They would run this world.

I'd say bees are actually pretty good farmers.

Not really. They have to go out and find flowers to collect pollen from. It would be a lot more efficient if they would collect the seeds while they are out and plant their own fields.

[sys]

Those people would be rough ridin' idiots:

it's just a model.  a way of viewing the system.  an analogy.  your link is interesting, but decreasing the relatedness between sibling workers doesn't invalidate the model.  as long as the workers are still working to assist relatives (and obviously, they are), it's still relevant.

This whole argument is on point with reproduction, yes, groups act to ensure the survival of the group and young.  We try to pass our genes on, but we also search out more genetically diverse partners. I am assuming those books you mention also discussed genetic diversity within a group as a key factor in their survival.  Otherwise, these books ignored the fact humans would have died out long ago.

that's a little strong.  there a number of extant species that have very little genetic diversity.  in general, humans tend to overestimate the deleterious impact of inbreeding.

searching out unrelated sexual partners is not terribly related to the evolution of altruism.

more a commentary on the general tone of others in the thread.

yeah, i agree.  people should try to understand anything and everything.

[Mr Bread]

I am jumping in late and don't really have much to offer but had trouble with the notion that classifying human behavior as a disease because it doesn't promote procreation or advance the species is really dumb science first of all, but also seems to fundamentally misunderstand the human condition.  How is this not immediately obvious?

From a biological and evolutionary standpoint, procreation is absolutely paramount. If you are born sterile, or otherwise unable or disinclined to procreate either mentally or physically, you are not passing your genes on or propagating the species. That's not even debatable. Unless you don't believe in evolution?

Q: What's the most important thing for a species to do in order to not go extinct?

A: Invent books, wine, and air jordans.

This is a pretty hilarious debate to be having with people who continually accuse people of being "anti-science."

Wine and Air Jordans haven't made much difference, but books have allowed for far more people to populate the earth than any one person plopping out a few kids ever has.

And yet, other species thrive without books. Or air jordans or wine. What's the common denominator? Oh right - they make more of themselves. One might say that reproduction is paramount to survival of a species.

It really is amazing the mental gymnsatics on display here in an attempt to disprove the basic point that reproduction is the most important thing to continuation of a species. Bear in mind, I never said "only" - I said "most important" and "paramount" - but even this is disputed. From the "pro-science" crowd.

you seem to have distilled this down to the notion that if a species doesn't make new members then it goes extinct, which is true.  that doesn't make it the most important biological imperative though.  that's resource procurement imo. 

species that had no problem physically procreating have gone extinct.  their baby makers didn't suddenly mass-malfunction.  i'm not aware of a species going extinct because its members universally lost the ability or inclination to eff.  i suppose it could have happened, but i don't think it's common.  typically the species loses access to the resources necessary for its survival and/or is killed off in large numbers (e.g., predation, disease, change in climate/environment).

the reason humanity is the dominant species is thanks to our social evolution, which permits us to control any and all available resources.  likewise we also now have no natural predators that threaten our numbers.  we do not involuntarily take a backseat to any other species in those regards, and it isn't due simply to how many new members we produce vs. how many they produce.  we didn't out-eff them, we out-cultured them. 

[star seed 7]

Interesting stance that liars can't be trans_. Not sure I agree with that

[Mr Bread]

i mean if there comes a point in the future that our procreation outpaces our culturally-derived ability to provide for it, then our culture will act to constrain our procreation in order to preserve our habitat/resources and ensure the survival of the species.  then it will be obvious to people like you what takes precedence, though it should be already. 

[Mrs. Gooch]

i mean if there comes a point in the future that our procreation outpaces our culturally-derived ability to provide for it, then our culture will act to constrain our procreation in order to preserve our habitat/resources and ensure the survival of the species.  then it will be obvious to people like you what takes precedence, though it should be already.

We are almost at that point, in fact I would argue that some places on Earth already are.

[Mr Bread]

Interesting stance that liars can't be trans_. Not sure I agree with that

i would imagine that it might be something many trans_ people feel compelled to do rather than face societal scrutiny about the legitimacy and morality of their preferences.  at least i can see that it would be an appealing option with the working assumption that you aren't going to be later outed. 

[MakeItRain]

Interesting stance that liars can't be trans_. Not sure I agree with that

That's waaaaaaayyyyy too simplistic to the point of that not being what I said at all. By definition you can't be trans anything if you don't acknowledge what your initial existence was. You aren't transsexual if you always thought you were a woman. Caitlin Jenner acknowledges that she was born a man, thus the TRANS. She very well may be lying about what she told Kris Jenner or what happened in that car wreck that killed that old woman. Rachel Dolezal, in her current iteration, did not ever acknowledge that she was born white, as a matter of fact she did fraudulent things to conceal that she is/was white like finding a random old black man that she adopted as her "dad." If she doesn't acknowledge that she was ever white or being white was ever in her existence she isn't transitioning from anything.

[Mr Bread]

Interesting stance that liars can't be trans_. Not sure I agree with that

That's waaaaaaayyyyy too simplistic to the point of that not being what I said at all. By definition you can't be trans anything if you don't acknowledge what your initial existence was. You aren't transsexual if you always thought you were a woman. Caitlin Jenner acknowledges that she was born a man, thus the TRANS. She very well may be lying about what she told Kris Jenner or what happened in that car wreck that killed that old woman. Rachel Dolezal, in her current iteration, did not ever acknowledge that she was born white, as a matter of fact she did fraudulent things to conceal that she is/was white like finding a random old black man that she adopted as her "dad." If she doesn't acknowledge that she was ever white or being white was ever in her existence she isn't transitioning from anything.

not an expert, but the fact that someone is say born a man, but feels like a woman and begins dressing and acting like one without telling others and even actively conceals or lies about that, what they are doing still qualifies as transgender.  it's merely a coping mechanism.  it's far easier to accomplish and far less stressful if no one knows what you were before.  i would think.  it may be immoral, but it isn't a disqualifying factor.  quite the contrary. 

trans·gen·der
trans?jend?r,tranz?jend?r/
adjective
denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender.

are you saying that a biological male who has for every moment of their lives felt like a female is not transgendered?  what are they if they always thought they were a woman?  i don't think the distinction you are attempting to draw actually exists (outside of your head). 

[MakeItRain]

Interesting stance that liars can't be trans_. Not sure I agree with that

That's waaaaaaayyyyy too simplistic to the point of that not being what I said at all. By definition you can't be trans anything if you don't acknowledge what your initial existence was. You aren't transsexual if you always thought you were a woman. Caitlin Jenner acknowledges that she was born a man, thus the TRANS. She very well may be lying about what she told Kris Jenner or what happened in that car wreck that killed that old woman. Rachel Dolezal, in her current iteration, did not ever acknowledge that she was born white, as a matter of fact she did fraudulent things to conceal that she is/was white like finding a random old black man that she adopted as her "dad." If she doesn't acknowledge that she was ever white or being white was ever in her existence she isn't transitioning from anything.

not an expert, but the fact that someone is say born a man, but feels like a woman and begins dressing and acting like one without telling others and even actively conceals or lies about that, what they are doing still qualifies as transgender.  it's merely a coping mechanism.  it's far easier to accomplish and far less stressful if no one knows what you were before.  i would think.  it may be immoral, but it isn't a disqualifying factor.  quite the contrary. 

trans·gen·der
trans?jend?r,tranz?jend?r/
adjective
denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender.

are you saying that a biological male who has for every moment of their lives felt like a female is not transgendered?  what are they if they always thought they were a woman?  i don't think the distinction you are attempting to draw actually exists (outside of your head).

First of all I need to clean something up, in the above quote I used transsexual, that was a mistake. I used the term transgender when speaking of Caitlin Jenner and I meant to do it there but I didn't, they are a distinction with differences. I'm guessing since you used some definition of transgender you know what I intended to say so...

No, that's not what I'm saying and you're perfectly aware that's now what I'm saying. Where the eff did you get that definition from? Did you look for several definitions that left out the key component or did you slice it up yourself?

From GLAAD http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

TRANSGENDER-SPECIFIC TERMINOLOGY

Transgender (adj.)
    An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms - including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the individual. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to change their bodies. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon medical procedures.

dictionary.com

transgender
[trans-jen-der, tranz?]

adjective, Also, transgendered
1. noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that person’s biological sex assigned at birth: the transgender movement;
transgender rights.

University of Southern Indiana LGBT Study

This campaign will be launched April 18th 2007

Transgender Campaign

Transgender people are people who were assigned a gender, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves. Not all Transgendered people feel the need to change their bodies, for some though it's necessary for the health and well being of the individual. Most transsexual people desire to establish a permanent social role as a member of the gender with which they identify, some do feel the need to change their bodies because of intense gender dysphoria. The entire process of switching from one physical and social gender presentation to the other is often referred to as transition, and usually takes several years.

The USI LGBT campaign is conducting research into the issues affecting Transgendered people in society and students so they can adequately provide support for them in the form of information, as a voice promoting their rights or otherwise.

http://www.stroud.gov.uk/info/gender_equality_scheme.pdf

"Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."[

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

If I'm reading this thread correctly, gays can get married so long as they also identify as being trans.   People that are bi can get married so long as they marry someone of the opposite gender they are or trans to.  Non trans gays can't get married, and neither can straights if one of them is trans. 

The NAACP fired someone for being white, and apparently that's a-okay. However, questioning whether someone who wants to mutilate their sexual organ is lucid is wrong because a bunch of idiots on this board identify with a bunch of other idiots that agree and they'll go after you hard for rolling your eyes at their perverse sense of normal.

[michigancat]

you aren't reading the thread correctly

[star seed 7]

Fsd identifies as moron

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

 

Okay, you all go along debating how trans someone has to be to be transexual, and why it's different than being trans race, and everyone can just continue laughing at how stupid you are.

[slobber]

Homosexuals can and do reproduce, at a much larger percentage than the Gooches

As I've said repeatedly, the question is not whether homosexuals can reproduce - of course they can. But if homosexuals are significantly less likely to reproduce than heterosexuals (is anyone going to argue against that?), and if reproduction is the primary biological imperitive of a species (anyone going to argue agaisnt that?), then I think it stands to reason that homosexuality is biological disorder. If you want to quible over use of the word "disorder," that's fine.

Reproduction (but more importantly, sustaining the species) as the primary biological imperative of the species does not mandate that producing progeny be the primary biological imperative of each individual within the species.

Tell it to the bees

Worker bees have a disorder, obvs

they do sense when the queen has died, left the hive (swarmed), or is weak. Then they feed the royal jelly to several eggs to produce one new queen.
(Pretty high hbiq)


Gonna win 'em all!

[wetwillie]

Homosexuals can and do reproduce, at a much larger percentage than the Gooches

As I've said repeatedly, the question is not whether homosexuals can reproduce - of course they can. But if homosexuals are significantly less likely to reproduce than heterosexuals (is anyone going to argue against that?), and if reproduction is the primary biological imperitive of a species (anyone going to argue agaisnt that?), then I think it stands to reason that homosexuality is biological disorder. If you want to quible over use of the word "disorder," that's fine.

Reproduction (but more importantly, sustaining the species) as the primary biological imperative of the species does not mandate that producing progeny be the primary biological imperative of each individual within the species.

Tell it to the bees

Worker bees have a disorder, obvs

they do sense when the queen has died, left the hive (swarmed), or is weak. Then they feed the royal jelly to several eggs to produce one new queen.
(Pretty high hbiq)


Gonna win 'em all!

you've researched how to most efficiently kill them with your big chemicals haven't you

[Mr Bread]

Interesting stance that liars can't be trans_. Not sure I agree with that

That's waaaaaaayyyyy too simplistic to the point of that not being what I said at all. By definition you can't be trans anything if you don't acknowledge what your initial existence was. You aren't transsexual if you always thought you were a woman. Caitlin Jenner acknowledges that she was born a man, thus the TRANS. She very well may be lying about what she told Kris Jenner or what happened in that car wreck that killed that old woman. Rachel Dolezal, in her current iteration, did not ever acknowledge that she was born white, as a matter of fact she did fraudulent things to conceal that she is/was white like finding a random old black man that she adopted as her "dad." If she doesn't acknowledge that she was ever white or being white was ever in her existence she isn't transitioning from anything.

not an expert, but the fact that someone is say born a man, but feels like a woman and begins dressing and acting like one without telling others and even actively conceals or lies about that, what they are doing still qualifies as transgender.  it's merely a coping mechanism.  it's far easier to accomplish and far less stressful if no one knows what you were before.  i would think.  it may be immoral, but it isn't a disqualifying factor.  quite the contrary. 

trans·gen·der
trans?jend?r,tranz?jend?r/
adjective
denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender.

are you saying that a biological male who has for every moment of their lives felt like a female is not transgendered?  what are they if they always thought they were a woman?  i don't think the distinction you are attempting to draw actually exists (outside of your head).

First of all I need to clean something up, in the above quote I used transsexual, that was a mistake. I used the term transgender when speaking of Caitlin Jenner and I meant to do it there but I didn't, they are a distinction with differences. I'm guessing since you used some definition of transgender you know what I intended to say so...

No, that's not what I'm saying and you're perfectly aware that's now what I'm saying. Where the eff did you get that definition from? Did you look for several definitions that left out the key component or did you slice it up yourself?

From GLAAD http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

TRANSGENDER-SPECIFIC TERMINOLOGY

Transgender (adj.)
    An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms - including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the individual. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to change their bodies. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon medical procedures.

dictionary.com

transgender
[trans-jen-der, tranz?]

adjective, Also, transgendered
1. noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that person’s biological sex assigned at birth: the transgender movement;
transgender rights.

University of Southern Indiana LGBT Study

This campaign will be launched April 18th 2007

Transgender Campaign

Transgender people are people who were assigned a gender, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves. Not all Transgendered people feel the need to change their bodies, for some though it's necessary for the health and well being of the individual. Most transsexual people desire to establish a permanent social role as a member of the gender with which they identify, some do feel the need to change their bodies because of intense gender dysphoria. The entire process of switching from one physical and social gender presentation to the other is often referred to as transition, and usually takes several years.

The USI LGBT campaign is conducting research into the issues affecting Transgendered people in society and students so they can adequately provide support for them in the form of information, as a voice promoting their rights or otherwise.

http://www.stroud.gov.uk/info/gender_equality_scheme.pdf

"Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."[

you can really be a spazzy dumbass.  it's the first definition that popped up in google (https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=transgender).

i asked questions directly about your own statement:

By definition you can't be trans anything if you don't acknowledge what your initial existence was. You aren't transsexual if you always thought you were a woman.

which you still didn't answer.  you just crap your pants about the definition i used. 

"i didn't mean what i typed because it's clearly rough ridin' stupid and you knew that!"  okay mir, okay.

[renocat]

Hope I never go transdog.

[MakeItRain]

Interesting stance that liars can't be trans_. Not sure I agree with that

That's waaaaaaayyyyy too simplistic to the point of that not being what I said at all. By definition you can't be trans anything if you don't acknowledge what your initial existence was. You aren't transsexual if you always thought you were a woman. Caitlin Jenner acknowledges that she was born a man, thus the TRANS. She very well may be lying about what she told Kris Jenner or what happened in that car wreck that killed that old woman. Rachel Dolezal, in her current iteration, did not ever acknowledge that she was born white, as a matter of fact she did fraudulent things to conceal that she is/was white like finding a random old black man that she adopted as her "dad." If she doesn't acknowledge that she was ever white or being white was ever in her existence she isn't transitioning from anything.

not an expert, but the fact that someone is say born a man, but feels like a woman and begins dressing and acting like one without telling others and even actively conceals or lies about that, what they are doing still qualifies as transgender.  it's merely a coping mechanism.  it's far easier to accomplish and far less stressful if no one knows what you were before.  i would think.  it may be immoral, but it isn't a disqualifying factor.  quite the contrary. 

trans·gen·der
trans?jend?r,tranz?jend?r/
adjective
denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender.

are you saying that a biological male who has for every moment of their lives felt like a female is not transgendered?  what are they if they always thought they were a woman?  i don't think the distinction you are attempting to draw actually exists (outside of your head).

First of all I need to clean something up, in the above quote I used transsexual, that was a mistake. I used the term transgender when speaking of Caitlin Jenner and I meant to do it there but I didn't, they are a distinction with differences. I'm guessing since you used some definition of transgender you know what I intended to say so...

No, that's not what I'm saying and you're perfectly aware that's now what I'm saying. Where the eff did you get that definition from? Did you look for several definitions that left out the key component or did you slice it up yourself?

From GLAAD http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

TRANSGENDER-SPECIFIC TERMINOLOGY

Transgender (adj.)
    An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms - including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the individual. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to change their bodies. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon medical procedures.

dictionary.com

transgender
[trans-jen-der, tranz?]

adjective, Also, transgendered
1. noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that person’s biological sex assigned at birth: the transgender movement;
transgender rights.

University of Southern Indiana LGBT Study

This campaign will be launched April 18th 2007

Transgender Campaign

Transgender people are people who were assigned a gender, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves. Not all Transgendered people feel the need to change their bodies, for some though it's necessary for the health and well being of the individual. Most transsexual people desire to establish a permanent social role as a member of the gender with which they identify, some do feel the need to change their bodies because of intense gender dysphoria. The entire process of switching from one physical and social gender presentation to the other is often referred to as transition, and usually takes several years.

The USI LGBT campaign is conducting research into the issues affecting Transgendered people in society and students so they can adequately provide support for them in the form of information, as a voice promoting their rights or otherwise.

http://www.stroud.gov.uk/info/gender_equality_scheme.pdf

"Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."[

you can really be a spazzy dumbass.  it's the first definition that popped up in google (https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=transgender).

i asked questions directly about your own statement:

By definition you can't be trans anything if you don't acknowledge what your initial existence was. You aren't transsexual if you always thought you were a woman.

which you still didn't answer.  you just crap your pants about the definition i used. 

"i didn't mean what i typed because it's clearly rough ridin' stupid and you knew that!"  okay mir, okay.

I was trying to discuss this civilly but if you want to drag this into the gutter I'll be happy to. I answered the question you stupid eff. All of those definitions I listed all mentioned explicitly stated a need to recognize the gender at birth to be considered transgender. If you rough ridin' decided to read before you popped off you would have seen that.

So no, according to GLAAD and several other sources if you don't acknowledge what your birth gender was you are not transgender. Just as if you don't acknowledge your race at birth you cannot be transracial.

If you are going to participate in a discussion in which you call someone a dumbass maybe you should go beyond Webster.com if you don't know what the eff you're talking about.

[Spracne]

Señor Bread just got Webster'd!

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

, according to GLAAD and several other sources if you don't acknowledge what your birth gender was you are not transgender. Just as if you don't acknowledge your race at birth you cannot be transracial.

Everyone else recognizes this as idiotic and rough ridin' insane, right?

[renocat]

Enough of this horse  crap. If you're man and want to be a woman, go to the doc and get your weasel and wallies hacked off instead of  coming up with some stupid new term cause you are chicken to do the deed, or maybe the inner man still lives in the dark recesses of you soul. You are a man or woman not limbo loins.

[star seed 7]

it's very common to not be able to orgasm anymore after getting sex reassignment surgery.... that seems like a pretty major risk to me renocats

[mocat]

Hope I never go transdog.

lol