Well hello there SAE

[Rage Against the McKee]

those girls are insanely brave, good for them.

And like, just investigate it, KSU. WTF.

Why do you expect more from the University than the police department?

Because they already should because of Title 9 and I'm assuming they already have some sort of investigative body in place for incidents that take place at fraternities so they can just do it.

I mean, you can argue against Title 9, but they're supposed to be following it and instead just told these women to eff off.

There's not really any clear wording that says the University had an obligation to investigate the incident per Title IX.  While there is some verbiage around off-campus events, they only enumerate things directly related to the university (university owned housing, sporting events, cafeterias, etc.)  Pillsbury Crossing and frat houses aren't strictly university affiliates, per se.  The reason this case is getting so much national press is because it seeks to set a precedent for Universities to investigate cases not directly linked to the the university.   I dunno, maybe the school should have done more voluntarily but they weren't remiss in not doing so.  This case could establish juris prudence that Universities are obligated to investigate assault cases concerning students no mater where they took place so in that sense there might be a positive outcome from all of this.

I think fraternities are university affiliates, even if they are off campus. The school has an office of fraternity and sorority life dedicated to helping you join.

[HerrSonntag]

those girls are insanely brave, good for them.

And like, just investigate it, KSU. WTF.

Why do you expect more from the University than the police department?

Because they already should because of Title 9 and I'm assuming they already have some sort of investigative body in place for incidents that take place at fraternities so they can just do it.

I mean, you can argue against Title 9, but they're supposed to be following it and instead just told these women to eff off.

Doesn't Title 9 just say that there shouldn't be discrimination on the basis of sex? So as long as they don't investigate the rape of men either, they should be fine.

In 2011, the DoE sent out instructions affirming an interpreting Title IX as protecting all equal access to education, and that the threat of sexual violence discriminates the victim from a free and equal access to that education.
http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201104.html
So, its an interpretation essentially based on a memorandum released by some government stooge five years ago but has since acted as the modus operandi for remaining Title IX compliant among universities.

[HerrSonntag]

How is that a positive?

Eliminating legal ambiguity, thats how! 

[HerrSonntag]

those girls are insanely brave, good for them.

And like, just investigate it, KSU. WTF.

Why do you expect more from the University than the police department?

Because they already should because of Title 9 and I'm assuming they already have some sort of investigative body in place for incidents that take place at fraternities so they can just do it.

I mean, you can argue against Title 9, but they're supposed to be following it and instead just told these women to eff off.

There's not really any clear wording that says the University had an obligation to investigate the incident per Title IX.  While there is some verbiage around off-campus events, they only enumerate things directly related to the university (university owned housing, sporting events, cafeterias, etc.)  Pillsbury Crossing and frat houses aren't strictly university affiliates, per se.  The reason this case is getting so much national press is because it seeks to set a precedent for Universities to investigate cases not directly linked to the the university.   I dunno, maybe the school should have done more voluntarily but they weren't remiss in not doing so.  This case could establish juris prudence that Universities are obligated to investigate assault cases concerning students no mater where they took place so in that sense there might be a positive outcome from all of this.

I think fraternities are university affiliates, even if they are off campus. The school has an office of fraternity and sorority life dedicated to helping you join.

Not really too sure of that, i think thats probably a core part case.  i.e - are they or aren't they?

[star seed 7]

How is that a positive?

Eliminating legal ambiguity, thats how! 

Yeah, that's good, but you specifically indicated an outcome where universities become private investigators instead of letting the police handle criminal matters is more positive than an alternative outcome

[michigancat]

Here is a little more detailed background:

http://knowyourix.org/why-schools-handle-sexual-violence-reports/

Apparently K-12 schools are also required to investigate sexual assault.

[star seed 7]

That link doesn't seem very balanced

[Mrs. Gooch]

Whar happens if one students tries to murder another student? The victim surely shouldn't have to be on the same campus as the attempted-murderer. Is the school supposed to investigate that?

[michigancat]

That link doesn't seem very balanced

It definitely isn't. Neither is "just call the cops, it's not the university's job".

It still doesn't change the fact that the university has a system and policy in place regarding sexual assault investigation that they're choosing to ignore IMO:

This Policy covers employees, students, applicants for employment or admission, contractors, vendors, visitors, guests, and participants in University-sponsored programs or activities. The academic or work relationship sometimes extends beyond the University campus and after University work and class hours. Therefore, in some situations, this Policy may apply to allegations of discrimination, harassment or retaliation for behavior that occurs off campus or during after-hours functions sponsored by the University.  Off campus occurrences that are not related to University-sponsored programs or activities are investigated under this Policy only if those occurrences relate to discrimination, harassment, or retaliation alleged on campus.

http://www.k-state.edu/policies/ppm/3000/3010.html

also this is pretty gross if true:

According to the lawsuit, even as the university refused to investigate the accusation of rape, it sanctioned Sigma Nu for serving alcohol.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/us/kansas-state-university-fraternity-rape-lawsuit.html

[michigancat]

Whar happens if one students tries to murder another student? The victim surely shouldn't have to be on the same campus as the attempted-murderer. Is the school supposed to investigate that?

yeah it looks like they are:

http://www.k-state.edu/policies/ppm/3000/3015.html

[Trim]

How does a university investigate this stuff? I know how cops investigate crimes, and struggle to see how a university (not campus police) can conduct a productive investigation.

This "how to" was lacking. http://www.campussafetymagazine.com/article/How-to-Comply-With-the-Dept-of-Ed-s-Title-IX-s-Sexual-Violence-Guidance

[AbeFroman]

My alma mater takes cuss words and spaceship shaped penises more seriously than rape. Burn it the eff down.

[Gooch]

Civil court you have to prove your innocence as opposed the having to prove the crime.

But what could you sue someone for in civil court with regard to rape?

Pretty hard to disprove a number a person may assign to their "personal distress" *






* not an attormey

[KCFDcat]

My alma mater takes cuss words and spaceship shaped penises more seriously than rape. Burn it the eff down.

this is the most accurate and most frustrating post so far. A teacher that made a half assed attempt at making fun of a rival school got more punishment than some frat dudes that raped some girls. WTF is that?

[KCFDcat]

those girls are insanely brave, good for them.

And like, just investigate it, KSU. WTF.

Why do you expect more from the University than the police department?

Because they already should because of Title 9 and I'm assuming they already have some sort of investigative body in place for incidents that take place at fraternities so they can just do it.

I mean, you can argue against Title 9, but they're supposed to be following it and instead just told these women to eff off.

There's not really any clear wording that says the University had an obligation to investigate the incident per Title IX.  While there is some verbiage around off-campus events, they only enumerate things directly related to the university (university owned housing, sporting events, cafeterias, etc.)  Pillsbury Crossing and frat houses aren't strictly university affiliates, per se.  The reason this case is getting so much national press is because it seeks to set a precedent for Universities to investigate cases not directly linked to the the university.   I dunno, maybe the school should have done more voluntarily but they weren't remiss in not doing so.  This case could establish juris prudence that Universities are obligated to investigate assault cases concerning students no mater where they took place so in that sense there might be a positive outcome from all of this.

I think fraternities are university affiliates, even if they are off campus. The school has an office of fraternity and sorority life dedicated to helping you join.

Not really too sure of that, i think thats probably a core part case.  i.e - are they or aren't they?

Would love to hear your attempt at defending this stance. How is a frat/sorority not a KSU affiliate? Isn't priority #1 each member must be a student at KSU?

[star seed 7]

My alma mater takes cuss words and spaceship shaped penises more seriously than rape. Burn it the eff down.

this is the most accurate and most frustrating post so far. A teacher that made a half assed attempt at making fun of a rival school got more punishment than some frat dudes that raped some girls. WTF is that?

allegedly

[KCFDcat]

ALLEGEDLY

[Trim]

You know how it's almost a joke at this point how horrible KSU is at social media and really any sort of PR?

KSU's Office of Institutional Equity has a Title IX and Sexual Misconduct Prevention Department, and naturally a twitter account representing that department.

https://twitter.com/KStateOIE

K-State OIE/Title IX
@KStateOIE
OIE is charged with planning the university's EEO diversity/compliance efforts and impartially investigating all concerns of discrimination, harassment/ TitleIX

They don't get many tweets off, and a lot of them are RTs anyway.

This is their most recent:

https://twitter.com/WomenAgnstAbuse/status/716264450328825856

[HerrSonntag]

those girls are insanely brave, good for them.

And like, just investigate it, KSU. WTF.

Why do you expect more from the University than the police department?

Because they already should because of Title 9 and I'm assuming they already have some sort of investigative body in place for incidents that take place at fraternities so they can just do it.

I mean, you can argue against Title 9, but they're supposed to be following it and instead just told these women to eff off.

There's not really any clear wording that says the University had an obligation to investigate the incident per Title IX.  While there is some verbiage around off-campus events, they only enumerate things directly related to the university (university owned housing, sporting events, cafeterias, etc.)  Pillsbury Crossing and frat houses aren't strictly university affiliates, per se.  The reason this case is getting so much national press is because it seeks to set a precedent for Universities to investigate cases not directly linked to the the university.   I dunno, maybe the school should have done more voluntarily but they weren't remiss in not doing so.  This case could establish juris prudence that Universities are obligated to investigate assault cases concerning students no mater where they took place so in that sense there might be a positive outcome from all of this.

I think fraternities are university affiliates, even if they are off campus. The school has an office of fraternity and sorority life dedicated to helping you join.

Not really too sure of that, i think thats probably a core part case.  i.e - are they or aren't they?

Would love to hear your attempt at defending this stance. How is a frat/sorority not a KSU affiliate? Isn't priority #1 each member must be a student at KSU?

I said I didn't know, not that they weren't dumbass

[KCFDcat]

those girls are insanely brave, good for them.

And like, just investigate it, KSU. WTF.

Why do you expect more from the University than the police department?

Because they already should because of Title 9 and I'm assuming they already have some sort of investigative body in place for incidents that take place at fraternities so they can just do it.

I mean, you can argue against Title 9, but they're supposed to be following it and instead just told these women to eff off.

There's not really any clear wording that says the University had an obligation to investigate the incident per Title IX.  While there is some verbiage around off-campus events, they only enumerate things directly related to the university (university owned housing, sporting events, cafeterias, etc.)  Pillsbury Crossing and frat houses aren't strictly university affiliates, per se.  The reason this case is getting so much national press is because it seeks to set a precedent for Universities to investigate cases not directly linked to the the university.   I dunno, maybe the school should have done more voluntarily but they weren't remiss in not doing so.  This case could establish juris prudence that Universities are obligated to investigate assault cases concerning students no mater where they took place so in that sense there might be a positive outcome from all of this.

I think fraternities are university affiliates, even if they are off campus. The school has an office of fraternity and sorority life dedicated to helping you join.

Not really too sure of that, i think thats probably a core part case.  i.e - are they or aren't they?

Would love to hear your attempt at defending this stance. How is a frat/sorority not a KSU affiliate? Isn't priority #1 each member must be a student at KSU?

I said I didn't know, not that they weren't dumbass

Oh ok!

[hollacat]

That link doesn't seem very balanced

It definitely isn't. Neither is "just call the cops, it's not the university's job".

It still doesn't change the fact that the university has a system and policy in place regarding sexual assault investigation that they're choosing to ignore IMO:

This Policy covers employees, students, applicants for employment or admission, contractors, vendors, visitors, guests, and participants in University-sponsored programs or activities. The academic or work relationship sometimes extends beyond the University campus and after University work and class hours. Therefore, in some situations, this Policy may apply to allegations of discrimination, harassment or retaliation for behavior that occurs off campus or during after-hours functions sponsored by the University.  Off campus occurrences that are not related to University-sponsored programs or activities are investigated under this Policy only if those occurrences relate to discrimination, harassment, or retaliation alleged on campus.

http://www.k-state.edu/policies/ppm/3000/3010.html

also this is pretty gross if true:

According to the lawsuit, even as the university refused to investigate the accusation of rape, it sanctioned Sigma Nu for serving alcohol.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/us/kansas-state-university-fraternity-rape-lawsuit.html

Is very true. We were told we couldn't punish based on what happened, or what we could figure out had happened from the rough police report, but only on the lack of rule following by the chapter that had allowed it to happen. I forget the exact timing, but we had a couple different hearings for Sig Nu for separate issues, one including this story. After the 2nd we suspended them from campus, which they appealed all the way up to Bosco.

It's definitely not IFC's place to investigate rapes, or individual students. The "judicial" board is mostly composed of sophomores and juniors. It's not a fun four hours debating the details of incidents like this.

That said, all fraternity property is owned by the individual fraternity's alumni board. The undergraduate chapter simply rents out the house from the alumni. It's the chapter, not the alumni board that has a loose affiliation with the university. I can't imagine how, just because most of the fraternity chapter live in a house together, that all of a sudden the university must get involved. Is this the same for rapes reported between college students in the bertrand/thurston area?

I had 2 of these incidents in my year on IFC. One not mentioned in the story. It's awful, but I do think this really is quite common, when factoring in the number of incidents that go unreported.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[michigancat]

That link doesn't seem very balanced

It definitely isn't. Neither is "just call the cops, it's not the university's job".

It still doesn't change the fact that the university has a system and policy in place regarding sexual assault investigation that they're choosing to ignore IMO:

This Policy covers employees, students, applicants for employment or admission, contractors, vendors, visitors, guests, and participants in University-sponsored programs or activities. The academic or work relationship sometimes extends beyond the University campus and after University work and class hours. Therefore, in some situations, this Policy may apply to allegations of discrimination, harassment or retaliation for behavior that occurs off campus or during after-hours functions sponsored by the University.  Off campus occurrences that are not related to University-sponsored programs or activities are investigated under this Policy only if those occurrences relate to discrimination, harassment, or retaliation alleged on campus.

http://www.k-state.edu/policies/ppm/3000/3010.html

also this is pretty gross if true:

According to the lawsuit, even as the university refused to investigate the accusation of rape, it sanctioned Sigma Nu for serving alcohol.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/us/kansas-state-university-fraternity-rape-lawsuit.html

Is very true. We were told we couldn't punish based on what happened, or what we could figure out had happened from the rough police report, but only on the lack of rule following by the chapter that had allowed it to happen. I forget the exact timing, but we had a couple different hearings for Sig Nu for separate issues, one including this story. After the 2nd we suspended them from campus, which they appealed all the way up to Bosco.

It's definitely not IFC's place to investigate rapes, or individual students. The "judicial" board is mostly composed of sophomores and juniors. It's not a fun four hours debating the details of incidents like this.

That said, all fraternity property is owned by the individual fraternity's alumni board. The undergraduate chapter simply rents out the house from the alumni. It's the chapter, not the alumni board that has a loose affiliation with the university. I can't imagine how, just because most of the fraternity chapter live in a house together, that all of a sudden the university must get involved. Is this the same for rapes reported between college students in the bertrand/thurston area?

I had 2 of these incidents in my year on IFC. One not mentioned in the story. It's awful, but I do think this really is quite common, when factoring in the number of incidents that go unreported.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Yeah I definitely don't think IFC is who should be handling the investigation, nor do I think anyone is suggesting they should. However the university SAYS they have a system in place to investigate sexual assault (and a lot of other stuff), but flat out refused because it happened at an off-campus university supported/sanctioned house.

And personally, I think the university should apply their stated policy to investigate rapes committed between students in the "Bertrand/Thurston" area as well as greek houses and on-campus dorms.

[hollacat]

That link doesn't seem very balanced

It definitely isn't. Neither is "just call the cops, it's not the university's job".

It still doesn't change the fact that the university has a system and policy in place regarding sexual assault investigation that they're choosing to ignore IMO:

This Policy covers employees, students, applicants for employment or admission, contractors, vendors, visitors, guests, and participants in University-sponsored programs or activities. The academic or work relationship sometimes extends beyond the University campus and after University work and class hours. Therefore, in some situations, this Policy may apply to allegations of discrimination, harassment or retaliation for behavior that occurs off campus or during after-hours functions sponsored by the University.  Off campus occurrences that are not related to University-sponsored programs or activities are investigated under this Policy only if those occurrences relate to discrimination, harassment, or retaliation alleged on campus.

http://www.k-state.edu/policies/ppm/3000/3010.html

also this is pretty gross if true:

According to the lawsuit, even as the university refused to investigate the accusation of rape, it sanctioned Sigma Nu for serving alcohol.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/us/kansas-state-university-fraternity-rape-lawsuit.html

Is very true. We were told we couldn't punish based on what happened, or what we could figure out had happened from the rough police report, but only on the lack of rule following by the chapter that had allowed it to happen. I forget the exact timing, but we had a couple different hearings for Sig Nu for separate issues, one including this story. After the 2nd we suspended them from campus, which they appealed all the way up to Bosco.

It's definitely not IFC's place to investigate rapes, or individual students. The "judicial" board is mostly composed of sophomores and juniors. It's not a fun four hours debating the details of incidents like this.

That said, all fraternity property is owned by the individual fraternity's alumni board. The undergraduate chapter simply rents out the house from the alumni. It's the chapter, not the alumni board that has a loose affiliation with the university. I can't imagine how, just because most of the fraternity chapter live in a house together, that all of a sudden the university must get involved. Is this the same for rapes reported between college students in the bertrand/thurston area?

I had 2 of these incidents in my year on IFC. One not mentioned in the story. It's awful, but I do think this really is quite common, when factoring in the number of incidents that go unreported.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Yeah I definitely don't think IFC is who should be handling the investigation, nor do I think anyone is suggesting they should. However the university SAYS they have a system in place to investigate sexual assault (and a lot of other stuff), but flat out refused because it happened at an off-campus university supported/sanctioned house.

And personally, I think the university should apply their stated policy to investigate rapes committed between students in the "Bertrand/Thurston" area as well as greek houses and on-campus dorms.

Am fine with that stance. Would be an interesting conversation as how far that stretches though. An alumni and a student? Somebody who works for facilities and an alumni? Strictly students? Would be difficult to draw that line, as it is now with on campus/off campus issues.

Is this system the "Administrative Review Team"? From reading this policy https://www.k-state.edu/policies/ppm/3000/3010.html all you would have to do to fall under the policy would be to claim harassment on campus. Whether that be by the media distributed or something else, I feel that is "unreasonably interfering with the academic performance or participation in any university-sponsored activity of the person"

The outcome of pursuing this investigation though would only be a change of grade, kicking the offender out of K-State, or back pay if she was employed by K-State. From what I read changes to living situations, academic schedules etc are provided for any complainant of sexual assault.

[Trim]

http://www.k-state.edu/oie/titleix/

[Trim]

The Animal can't catch a break.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/wsu-student-reports-alleged-rape-at-delta-upsilon-fraternity/