How big a deal is a bad year?

[j rake]

Nebraska would have had no trouble hiring Scott Frost or Jim Tressel. They just have too many fans with the same mindset you have, leading them to keep Bo for far too long and embrace the Riley hire.

well, tressel has a five-year show-cause, and frost interviewed for the tulsa job (and didn't get it), but if you say so.

again, i'm all for k-state fans having high expectations. but for now, k-state hoops is probably the 45th best job in the country, meaning the top 44 coaches...all things being equal...would probably prefer to be elsewhere; and the up-and-coming coaches with aspirations of becoming great coaches will likely use k-state as a stepping stone to better jobs in better locations.

How did you reach that number?

edited above, meant 35th.

forgot that football is 45th. 

[kso_FAN]

DJamer would have had more impact on the defensive end than offense and he would have helped this team.

Definitely.  Do you think he would have played with Gip and would have helped Gip on offense?

Yes. I don't think oscar is that dumb.

How does DJamer help Gip on offense exactly?  I don't see it.  I'm that dumb.  It seems obvious to me he wouldn't. 

Can't shoot, doesn't have post-moves.  Must be in the paint.  Him rebounding Gip's misses is helping Gip on offense?  Is that it?

Also, I don't believe oscar has ever played two post-players together that were bruisers who couldn't shoot.  Literally. 

That's fair.

I think he would've been forced to play them together some, maybe 10 minutes a game max, but having a rotation of Gip or DJamer constantly at the 5 would have been the biggest benefit. Then Nino or Hurt rotate at the 4 and you get a much more stable rotation with your bigs.

[michigancat]

Nebraska would have had no trouble hiring Scott Frost or Jim Tressel. They just have too many fans with the same mindset you have, leading them to keep Bo for far too long and embrace the Riley hire.

well, tressel has a five-year show-cause, and frost interviewed for the tulsa job (and didn't get it), but if you say so.

again, i'm all for k-state fans having high expectations. but for now, k-state hoops is probably the 35th best job in the country, meaning the top 34 coaches...all things being equal...would probably prefer to be elsewhere; and the up-and-coming coaches with aspirations of becoming great coaches will likely use k-state as a stepping stone to better jobs in better locations.

the same is true for the rest of the Big 12 save Kansas and Texas. I mean literally every school has had successful coaches leave for greener pastures.

And I think you'll see fewer "stepping stone" moves from guys like Shaka Smart and Gregg Marshall and Archie Miller because rebuilding jobs are hard. (I think this would mean it would be more difficult for KSU to find an upgrade over oscar).

[The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep]

this isnt ONE bad year. its two worse years. its about trends and bruces teams have been going downhill the more of his players have come through. no reason to think we will be any better next year...

[j rake]

Nebraska would have had no trouble hiring Scott Frost or Jim Tressel. They just have too many fans with the same mindset you have, leading them to keep Bo for far too long and embrace the Riley hire.

well, tressel has a five-year show-cause, and frost interviewed for the tulsa job (and didn't get it), but if you say so.

again, i'm all for k-state fans having high expectations. but for now, k-state hoops is probably the 35th best job in the country, meaning the top 34 coaches...all things being equal...would probably prefer to be elsewhere; and the up-and-coming coaches with aspirations of becoming great coaches will likely use k-state as a stepping stone to better jobs in better locations.

the same is true for the rest of the Big 12 save Kansas and Texas. I mean literally every school has had successful coaches leave for greener pastures.

And I think you'll see fewer "stepping stone" moves from guys like Shaka Smart and Gregg Marshall and Archie Miller because rebuilding jobs are hard. (I think this would mean it would be more difficult for KSU to find an upgrade over oscar).

you're probably right. the big 12 (k-state included) also has at least helped itself out a bunch by being super competitive with salary. oscar had the 25th-highest salary of any coach in the ncaa tourney last year, ahead of coaches at uconn, tenn, colorado, iowa, nebraska, cincy, iowa st, etc.

k-state has become a more desirable program. i would coach there for 500k.

[0.42]

Jesus. One bad season and some of the elites start re-accepting the "can't recruit to/win in Manhattan" meme as if Ames, Stillwater, and Waco don't rough ridin' exist.

Who is accepting that?

Good points. I agree that often the sense of entitlement is pretty ridiculous, but that's across the board for college sports.

Essentially j rake is saying that it's ridiculous to have a sense of entitlement (which translates to the belief that KSU should be in the top half of the Big 12 on a consistent basis) because we're poor little KSU stuck out in the middle of the nowhere of the plains. I argue that he vastly overestimates the role that geography plays in predicting future success.

Stillwater is even more isolated than MHK because of the lack of airport nearby, but they've built a consistently good program. Same with Morgantown. Waco is a complete shithole but they've bypassed us despite the Texas basketball talent pool not being nearly as deep as football. Ames is Ames, yet we all know what they've done. Kruger's built a consistent(ish) winner at OU despite their fanbase treating hoops only slightly better than Texas fans, and Norman has very little college town atmosphere to speak of. Tech and TCU should *always* be behind EMAW in hoops.

Brad Underwood's program, Stephen F. Austin, is 2.5 hours from any airport at all, yet he and Danny Kaspar have sustained a tradition of winning in a conference that has or once had Huntsville (close to Houston), San Marcos (within an hour of Austin and San Antonio, Hammond (close to New Orleans), and Conway (close to Little Rock). Meanwhile, Texas State, despite having one of the best budgets, recruiting bases, and college towns in the Southland/WAC/Sun Belt, has sucked complete ass since the late 90's because of terrible coaching and administrative support. I know Sun Belt =/ Big 12, but geography is not always the deciding factor in determining competitiveness. Coaching, winning tradition, administrative support/decision making for the program can also be incredibly important.

Outside of the lost 2 decades before Huggs, there's a solid tradition surrounding the EMAW program. The BTF is a fantastic facility and should be a major recruiting sell. MHK has an airport with flights to DFW and ORD. And, unlike OU/every single Texas school, the fans absolutely give a crap about the program. It's not *that* hard to turn EMAW hoops back around and put it in the top half of the Big 12 with the right coach. Sure, EMAW may have to get creative about it and do a Huggs/Sampson style hire and get someone who isn't scared of skirting NCAA rules/arbitrary shirt tuck standards of morality, but it can be done. That's why Currie's philosophy is such a problem, his obsession with doing things "the right way" and appealing to the gullible Midwestern ethos of bootstrapping robs KSU of the flexibility it needs to obtain the competitive advantage it could and should have. I mean, crap. Can you imagine what piece of stale toast is going to be our next football coach?

[kso_FAN]

Yeah, those are good points. I really don't disagree with anything you said.

BTW, I never said anything about not being able to win/recruit to Manhattan, KS. I agree that fans can be entitled, that's all I said. I meant it more as its our current sports culture everywhere, not just with our fans. If you were talking about me, you completely read something into my post that I didn't say at all.

[0.42]

Yeah, those are good points. I really don't disagree with anything you said.

BTW, I never said anything about not being able to win/recruit to Manhattan, KS. I agree that fans can be entitled, that's all I said. I meant it more as its our current sports culture everywhere, not just with our fans. If you were talking about me, you completely read something into my post that I didn't say at all.

Ok, that's my fault then. I admittedly get annoyed as hell at the "can't recruit to MHK" meme that it seems that j rake's been peddling lately because it's utterly tired, so I read too much into your comment. My apologies.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Yeah, those are good points. I really don't disagree with anything you said.

BTW, I never said anything about not being able to win/recruit to Manhattan, KS. I agree that fans can be entitled, that's all I said. I meant it more as its our current sports culture everywhere, not just with our fans. If you were talking about me, you completely read something into my post that I didn't say at all.

Our fans aren't entitled, though. Maybe at some other schools, but our fans are good, hardworking salt-of-the-earth types who just want to win a basketball national championship before they die and don't want oscar to be coach for 10% of their lifetime.

[Demo158]

Jesus. One bad season and some of the elites start re-accepting the "can't recruit to/win in Manhattan" meme as if Ames, Stillwater, and Waco don't rough ridin' exist.

Who is accepting that?

Good points. I agree that often the sense of entitlement is pretty ridiculous, but that's across the board for college sports.

Essentially j rake is saying that it's ridiculous to have a sense of entitlement (which translates to the belief that KSU should be in the top half of the Big 12 on a consistent basis) because we're poor little KSU stuck out in the middle of the nowhere of the plains. I argue that he vastly overestimates the role that geography plays in predicting future success.

Stillwater is even more isolated than MHK because of the lack of airport nearby, but they've built a consistently good program. Same with Morgantown. Waco is a complete shithole but they've bypassed us despite the Texas basketball talent pool not being nearly as deep as football. Ames is Ames, yet we all know what they've done. Kruger's built a consistent(ish) winner at OU despite their fanbase treating hoops only slightly better than Texas fans, and Norman has very little college town atmosphere to speak of. Tech and TCU should *always* be behind EMAW in hoops.

Brad Underwood's program, Stephen F. Austin, is 2.5 hours from any airport at all, yet he and Danny Kaspar have sustained a tradition of winning in a conference that has or once had Huntsville (close to Houston), San Marcos (within an hour of Austin and San Antonio, Hammond (close to New Orleans), and Conway (close to Little Rock). Meanwhile, Texas State, despite having one of the best budgets, recruiting bases, and college towns in the Southland/WAC/Sun Belt, has sucked complete ass since the late 90's because of terrible coaching and administrative support. I know Sun Belt =/ Big 12, but geography is not always the deciding factor in determining competitiveness. Coaching, winning tradition, administrative support/decision making for the program can also be incredibly important.

Outside of the lost 2 decades before Huggs, there's a solid tradition surrounding the EMAW program. The BTF is a fantastic facility and should be a major recruiting sell. MHK has an airport with flights to DFW and ORD. And, unlike OU/every single Texas school, the fans absolutely give a crap about the program. It's not *that* hard to turn EMAW hoops back around and put it in the top half of the Big 12 with the right coach. Sure, EMAW may have to get creative about it and do a Huggs/Sampson style hire and get someone who isn't scared of skirting NCAA rules/arbitrary shirt tuck standards of morality, but it can be done. That's why Currie's philosophy is such a problem, his obsession with doing things "the right way" and appealing to the gullible Midwestern ethos of bootstrapping robs KSU of the flexibility it needs to obtain the competitive advantage it could and should have. I mean, crap. Can you imagine what piece of stale toast is going to be our next football coach?

Word

[Skipper44]

Nebraska would have had no trouble hiring Scott Frost or Jim Tressel. They just have too many fans with the same mindset you have, leading them to keep Bo for far too long and embrace the Riley hire.

well, tressel has a five-year show-cause, and frost interviewed for the tulsa job (and didn't get it), but if you say so.

again, i'm all for k-state fans having high expectations. but for now, k-state hoops is probably the 35th best job in the country, meaning the top 34 coaches...all things being equal...would probably prefer to be elsewhere; and the up-and-coming coaches with aspirations of becoming great coaches will likely use k-state as a stepping stone to better jobs in better locations.

the same is true for the rest of the Big 12 save Kansas and Texas. I mean literally every school has had successful coaches leave for greener pastures.

And I think you'll see fewer "stepping stone" moves from guys like Shaka Smart and Gregg Marshall and Archie Miller because rebuilding jobs are hard. (I think this would mean it would be more difficult for KSU to find an upgrade over oscar).

Also, good mid majors can now pay enough to make $$ a non factor.  This is why letting oscar hang around is so dangerous, the lack of local talent and KU down the road make KSU a tougher job than most of the other football first P5 schools. 

Once all the momentum Hugs started and Frank extended greater than anyone could of imagined is gone the only thing that distinguishes KSU from the Mississippi States, Nebraskas and Washington States of the world is that the fans do care.  I was in school for all of the Asbury era and only the KU crowd would crack 10k (with hundreds of KU fans) and it was not uncommon to have 5k or less for a Sat. conference home game where a student could walk in at tip and find a spot 10 rows up at midcourt.  I only went to a couple of Wooly games but it appeared slightly better than that and any time Wooly strung a stretch of play together they would get close to 10k for a Sat. conference home game.  The talent on the floor was really not that much different between Asbury and Wooly but the fans hated Asbury and had checked out on the program after the 96-97 team completely flamed out.

[0.42]

Yeah, those are good points. I really don't disagree with anything you said.

BTW, I never said anything about not being able to win/recruit to Manhattan, KS. I agree that fans can be entitled, that's all I said. I meant it more as its our current sports culture everywhere, not just with our fans. If you were talking about me, you completely read something into my post that I didn't say at all.

Our fans aren't entitled, though. Maybe at some other schools, but our fans are good, hardworking salt-of-the-earth types who just want to win a basketball national championship before they die and don't want oscar to be coach for 10% of their lifetime.

I'd say even the more zealtastic gE'ers here know that we likely won't ever surpass KU or Texas as a desirable basketball job because of tradition and location for those two programs, respectively. We just want a chance at a deep tournament run and the occasional conference title. If Iowa State can do that (and they have), why can't KSU?

[kso_FAN]

I'd say even the more zealtastic gE'ers here know that we likely won't ever surpass KU or Texas as a desirable basketball job because of tradition and location for those two programs, respectively. We just want a chance at a deep tournament run and the occasional conference title. If Iowa State can do that (and they have), why can't KSU?

We can. I don't think one bad season means we can't.

[The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep]

trends, _FAN. were trending downward. what makes you think were going to get back to a tournament team with oscar weber as coach?

[0.42]

I'd say even the more zealtastic gE'ers here know that we likely won't ever surpass KU or Texas as a desirable basketball job because of tradition and location for those two programs, respectively. We just want a chance at a deep tournament run and the occasional conference title. If Iowa State can do that (and they have), why can't KSU?

We can. I don't think one bad season means we can't.

Agreed. But I certainly don't think we can with oscar as coach, and j rake's premise is that we can't hire anyone better. I think we certainly could, we just won't until we have a different athletic director who isn't obsessed with being squeaky clean or Currie's hand is forced and he brings in Brad (who may or may not be better).

BTW--sidenote about Brad, he's been able to maintain and perhaps even improve on Kaspar's system in almost two years at SFA, while Kaspar has shown a little potential early in year two but has otherwise utterly struggled in San Marcos. So it's possible that Brad could be a very good hire.

[Skipper44]

I'd say even the more zealtastic gE'ers here know that we likely won't ever surpass KU or Texas as a desirable basketball job because of tradition and location for those two programs, respectively. We just want a chance at a deep tournament run and the occasional conference title. If Iowa State can do that (and they have), why can't KSU?

We can. I don't think one bad season means we can't.

I could accept Oklahoma as a superior job to KSU but agree the other 6 are similar to worse.  The Thunder have absolutely been a negative for OU and OSU but I don't think it will be that way forever, Ford and Capel have proved recruiting at a high level is possible both places.

[Mr Bread]

trends, _FAN. were trending downward. what makes you think were going to get back to a tournament team with oscar weber as coach?

History.

[kso_FAN]

trends, _FAN. were trending downward. what makes you think were going to get back to a tournament team with oscar weber as coach?

Because oscar hasn't had back to back non-NCAA teams since he was at SIU. I didn't consider last year a downward trend because we had a transition year (from Rodney to Marcus) and we weren't even really a bubble team, we were an NCAA lock at the end of the year.

Again, the problem is the ceiling for oscar. It could very well be consistent mid pack Big 12 teams with on again off again NCAA appearances as 7-10 seeds and then we have a problem. Plus, oscar is just a non-exciting whiny coach too often to be loved by fans.

[sys]

Because oscar hasn't had back to back non-NCAA teams since he was at SIU. I didn't consider last year a downward trend because we had a transition year (from Rodney to Marcus) and we weren't even really a bubble team, we were an NCAA lock at the end of the year.

fitting a trend to a group of data doesn't mean that there aren't other variables that explain those data points.  the trend is descriptive, not explanatory.

[Skipper44]

trends, _FAN. were trending downward. what makes you think were going to get back to a tournament team with oscar weber as coach?

History.

Wasn't it Jerrance's recruiting that gave oscar his "second wind"? 

[j rake]

Essentially j rake is saying that it's ridiculous to have a sense of entitlement (which translates to the belief that KSU should be in the top half of the Big 12 on a consistent basis) because we're poor little KSU stuck out in the middle of the nowhere of the plains. I argue that he vastly overestimates the role that geography plays in predicting future success.

Stillwater is even more isolated than MHK because of the lack of airport nearby, but they've built a consistently good program. Same with Morgantown. Waco is a complete shithole but they've bypassed us despite the Texas basketball talent pool not being nearly as deep as football. Ames is Ames, yet we all know what they've done. Kruger's built a consistent(ish) winner at OU despite their fanbase treating hoops only slightly better than Texas fans, and Norman has very little college town atmosphere to speak of. Tech and TCU should *always* be behind EMAW in hoops.

you might have missed what i've said in other threads, but i haven't dismissed the possibility of k-state having a good program and occasional (or even semi-frequent) success. what i've argued, and still maintain, is that k-state will be unable to have a consistent, sustained presence at the top half of the league. there are too many other better or similar programs.

just because k-state can't, doesn't mean that wvu can. or that okla state can. or that okla can. it just means that aside from ku (and arguably texas if barnes can ever get them back to where they were), you're likely to see lots of year-to-year shuffling among the rest of the league members.

year to year, wvu, okla, okla st, k-state, baylor, tcu, iowa st are all going to be interchangeable. when okla is senior heavy and has talent, they'll rise to top 3 in the league. when those players graduate, they'll fall to bottom 3 in the league while an upperclassmen heavy okla st team takes their place. when k-state has a loaded roster, they'll get near the top of the league, only to fall back down to the bottom half once they don't.

all of these teams are super similar, and will likely continue to be.

if oscar were to coach another 10 years at k-state, here's what i'd expect his league finishes to be:

5th, 4th, 7th, 8th, 2nd, 4th, 9th, 5th, 6th, 3rd.

i get the impression that the fan base expects or demands the following:

2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd.

[CHONGS]

relevant link:

http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=22177.0

[pissclams]

DJamer would have had more impact on the defensive end than offense and he would have helped this team.

Definitely.  Do you think he would have played with Gip and would have helped Gip on offense?

Yes. I don't think oscar is that dumb.

How does DJamer help Gip on offense exactly?  I don't see it.  I'm that dumb.  It seems obvious to me he wouldn't. 

Can't shoot, doesn't have post-moves.  Must be in the paint.  Him rebounding Gip's misses is helping Gip on offense?  Is that it?

i literally can't think of a single time that a returning starter made another player better so nevermind, i just don't see it either let's /thread this /thread.

[Mr Bread]

trends, _FAN. were trending downward. what makes you think were going to get back to a tournament team with oscar weber as coach?

History.

Wasn't it Jerrance's recruiting that gave oscar his "second wind"?

The best team in his second wind wasn't Jerrance recruit dominated.  His Jerrance recruits got him fired. 

[j rake]

relevant link:

http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=22177.0

those expectations were more realistic in the old big 12, where k-state could ride an easy schedule and steal some games against superior teams at home. in the big 12 of the present and the future, that's unlikely to happen.

those expectations are better for iowa state w/ hoiberg.