“The question would be how much you could read before they grabbed you"

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

When you're getting your brains beat in at the polls and nobody likes you, fire up the blame bush train. We've got a guy testifying about the lies and deceit that went into passing Obamacare (is lying a moral issue?) which has caused hundreds of millions of dollars of waste and redistribution of wealth (surely taking from one person to give to another could be characterized as immoral), and all of the sudden this pops up.

This part made me laugh. Comparing taxes to torture.

You aren't even on the same planet as I am.

We're talking about morality, not which is "more immoral" to the extent there are degrees of immorality. Taxes to pay for common goods and services like roads, military, national forests, etc. are much different from taxes that do nothing more than take money from one group of people and give it to another. That could easily be characterized as immoral or "stealing".

You're posting makes me believe you are to stupid to be involved in this dialogue. But I'll hold off on making that conclusion for now.

I just think we as a society, made a decision at some point to redistribute some wealth for the betterment of society. If you really see that as immoral then I guess that sucks for you. That redistribution was created by the rule of law, and has been upheld in courts. The CIA torture thing was against the rule of law. If you cant tell the difference I don't know what to tell you.

You're still trying to distinguish degrees of morality, or at least use it to justify you're incongruent position.

Societal decisions allowed for slavery. If that's your metric for morality, I think you're confused. Also, courts have upheld "enhanced interrogation " so that point is just wrong.

[chuckjames]

When you're getting your brains beat in at the polls and nobody likes you, fire up the blame bush train. We've got a guy testifying about the lies and deceit that went into passing Obamacare (is lying a moral issue?) which has caused hundreds of millions of dollars of waste and redistribution of wealth (surely taking from one person to give to another could be characterized as immoral), and all of the sudden this pops up.

This part made me laugh. Comparing taxes to torture.

You aren't even on the same planet as I am.

We're talking about morality, not which is "more immoral" to the extent there are degrees of immorality. Taxes to pay for common goods and services like roads, military, national forests, etc. are much different from taxes that do nothing more than take money from one group of people and give it to another. That could easily be characterized as immoral or "stealing".

You're posting makes me believe you are to stupid to be involved in this dialogue. But I'll hold off on making that conclusion for now.

I just think we as a society, made a decision at some point to redistribute some wealth for the betterment of society. If you really see that as immoral then I guess that sucks for you. That redistribution was created by the rule of law, and has been upheld in courts. The CIA torture thing was against the rule of law. If you cant tell the difference I don't know what to tell you.

You're still trying to distinguish degrees of morality, or at least use it to justify you're incongruent position.

Societal decisions allowed for slavery. If that's your metric for morality, I think you're confused. Also, courts have upheld "enhanced interrogation " so that point is just wrong.

So do you agree that any income tax is redistribution? If someone pays more for a public good than another that is technically redistribution of wealth. Like what level of redistribution makes something immoral?

[chuckjames]

FSD,
    I honestly I don't care if people who can afford it have to pay a little more in taxes. I do care that we tortured fellow human beings. If that is morally incongruent, then I guess I'm stupid and a hypocrite.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

FSD,
    I honestly I don't care if people who can afford it have to pay a little more in taxes. I do care that we tortured fellow human beings. If that is morally incongruent, then I guess I'm stupid and a hypocrite.

"fellow human beings"

[michigancat]

FSD,
    I honestly I don't care if people who can afford it have to pay a little more in taxes. I do care that we tortured fellow human beings. If that is morally incongruent, then I guess I'm stupid and a hypocrite.

"fellow human beings"

they weren't when the CIA was finished with 'em amirite? 

[chuckjames]

FSD,
    I honestly I don't care if people who can afford it have to pay a little more in taxes. I do care that we tortured fellow human beings. If that is morally incongruent, then I guess I'm stupid and a hypocrite.

"fellow human beings"

At what point does one lose it's human dignity? Rape or murder? Just wondering where you set the line for those who are human and those that arent. I mean the Nazis tried to kill an entire race of people and we still treated them as humans.

[Rage Against the McKee]

FSD,
    I honestly I don't care if people who can afford it have to pay a little more in taxes. I do care that we tortured fellow human beings. If that is morally incongruent, then I guess I'm stupid and a hypocrite.

"fellow human beings"

At what point does one lose it's human dignity? Rape or murder? Just wondering where you set the line for those who are human and those that arent. I mean the Nazis tried to kill an entire race of people and we still treated them as humans.

They never do, chuckjames.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

roads and militaries are redistribution of wealth, FWIW.

But yeah, the bit about the "interrogator" snapping his finger and the prisoner getting on the torture table? Holy crap. Also the bad person falling out thing. eff these guys. #BurnItDown

Really any tax based on income is a redistribution of wealth, but whatevs Im just a stupid.

This isn't true. There are taxes used to support infrastructure, protection against invasion of the US and our allies, and civic support (police, fire, etc), which are necessary. Then there are taxes used to subsidize political voting blocks of people, or redistribution of wealth, which is unnecessary.

[michigancat]

redistribution of wealth that is "necessary" is still redistribution of wealth.


But yeah, torturing folks.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

roads and militaries are redistribution of wealth, FWIW.

But is it immoral wealth redistribution?  Everyone benefits from roads (you do not need a car, fyi). Not everyone benefits from some guy getting something.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

FSD,
    I honestly I don't care if people who can afford it have to pay a little more in taxes. I do care that we tortured fellow human beings. If that is morally incongruent, then I guess I'm stupid and a hypocrite.

"fellow human beings"

At what point does one lose it's human dignity? Rape or murder? Just wondering where you set the line for those who are human and those that arent. I mean the Nazis tried to kill an entire race of people and we still treated them as humans.

They never do, chuckjames.

Until society decides they do. Maybe we should put it to vote.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

When you're getting your brains beat in at the polls and nobody likes you, fire up the blame bush train. We've got a guy testifying about the lies and deceit that went into passing Obamacare (is lying a moral issue?) which has caused hundreds of millions of dollars of waste and redistribution of wealth (surely taking from one person to give to another could be characterized as immoral), and all of the sudden this pops up.

This part made me laugh. Comparing taxes to torture.

You aren't even on the same planet as I am.

We're talking about morality, not which is "more immoral" to the extent there are degrees of immorality. Taxes to pay for common goods and services like roads, military, national forests, etc. are much different from taxes that do nothing more than take money from one group of people and give it to another. That could easily be characterized as immoral or "stealing".

You're posting makes me believe you are to stupid to be involved in this dialogue. But I'll hold off on making that conclusion for now.

I just think we as a society, made a decision at some point to redistribute some wealth for the betterment of society. If you really see that as immoral then I guess that sucks for you. That redistribution was created by the rule of law, and has been upheld in courts. The CIA torture thing was against the rule of law. If you cant tell the difference I don't know what to tell you.

You're still trying to distinguish degrees of morality, or at least use it to justify you're incongruent position.

Societal decisions allowed for slavery. If that's your metric for morality, I think you're confused. Also, courts have upheld "enhanced interrogation " so that point is just wrong.

So do you agree that any income tax is redistribution? If someone pays more for a public good than another that is technically redistribution of wealth. Like what level of redistribution makes something immoral?

Chuck, it depends on what the taxes are used for. The guy with the $1 million business uses the road more than the guy who takes the bus every other week to collect his welfare check.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

redistribution of wealth that is "necessary" is still redistribution of wealth.

You're just wrong on this point. Things that are readily and indiscriminately available to the public are not "redistribution of wealth". Taking money from one person and giving it to another is. 

I think you're hung up on the current progressive structure, which is not how it has to be.

[Benja]

The torture thing has never really stuck with me. Like, I always assumed it was going on. The only thing that amazed me is that people were amazed.

[michigancat]

roads and militaries are redistribution of wealth, FWIW.

But is it immoral wealth redistribution?  Everyone benefits from roads (you do not need a car, fyi). Not everyone benefits from some guy getting something.

If everyone benefits from roads (obviously indirectly), everyone benefits from giving some guy some cash (obviously indirectly).

[Spracne]

We need to have this discussion.  Yes, that means THIS discussion--not one in which political wonks play matador with partisan issues like redistribution of wealth.  Everyone needs to ask himself or herself this question:  Am I OK with the techniques by agents of our government as detailed in this report, provided that the report is true and accurate?  Do not be flippant in your answer; your very own humanity may be at stake. 

Me?  I've always sorta held the belief that there are people who do ugly work in the shadows to keep us safe.  I neither need nor want to know about it.  However, I am starting to reevaluate that position, now that it's out in the open.  I'm starting to think that the position I previously held is simply untenable.

[michigancat]

Me?  I've always sorta held the belief that there are people who do ugly work in the shadows to keep us safe.  I neither need nor want to know about it.  However, I am starting to reevaluate that position, now that it's out in the open.  I'm starting to think that the position I previously held is simply untenable.

You should know about it and own it if you're in favor of it. I think every American should be forced to see videos if these torture sessions. Your tax dollars are used to rough ridin' torture people, so you should care. We can be "safe" (what does that mean?) without torturing people.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

I'm good with it. I also think it's a great idea to make people watch one of the "torture" videos - provided they also have to watch a video of people jumping from the towers and listen to the audio of people leaving tearful goodbyes on answering machines. I'm pretty confident how most Anericans will come down on the issue.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

We need to have this discussion.  Yes, that means THIS discussion--not one in which political wonks play matador with partisan issues like redistribution of wealth.  Everyone needs to ask himself or herself this question:  Am I OK with the techniques by agents of our government as detailed in this report, provided that the report is true and accurate?  Do not be flippant in your answer; your very own humanity may be at stake. 

Me?  I've always sorta held the belief that there are people who do ugly work in the shadows to keep us safe.  I neither need nor want to know about it.  However, I am starting to reevaluate that position, now that it's out in the open.  I'm starting to think that the position I previously held is simply untenable.

It's rough ridin' war.

Torture is monstrous. But so is firing a missile into a town that's sole purpose is to explode and propel  debris as fast as possible into ever person in range. We don't decide that's too yucky and surrender.

You know what else is monstrous, the way a lot of people on welfare treat their children. Maybe we should all watch a video of 3 kids sitting in a house filled with smoke, filth, rats, and drugs and decide whether or not we should continue fostering this lifestyle.

What's ridiculous is that only one sliver of the way we fight war is on trial, and it benefits nobody but the other side. It's pathetic partisan bullshit.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Me?  I've always sorta held the belief that there are people who do ugly work in the shadows to keep us safe.  I neither need nor want to know about it.  However, I am starting to reevaluate that position, now that it's out in the open.  I'm starting to think that the position I previously held is simply untenable.

You should know about it and own it if you're in favor of it. I think every American should be forced to see videos if these torture sessions. Your tax dollars are used to rough ridin' torture people, so you should care. We can be "safe" (what does that mean?) without torturing people.

Maybe a partial birth abortion as well. Watch that baby come out and have its spine immediately severed and it's body discarded as medical waste. If you're for it, own it.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

You're all advocating the PETA approach to making rational decisions.

[Headinjun]

I'm good with it. I also think it's a great idea to make people watch one of the "torture" videos - provided they also have to watch a video of people jumping from the towers and listen to the audio of people leaving tearful goodbyes on answering machines. I'm pretty confident how most Anericans will come down on the issue.

I would probably be disgusted at the perpetrators of both incidents.

Do you have any remorse that innocent people were subjected to harsh punishment at the hands of the United States? Punishment that provided next to nothing?

If I recall correctly the investigation of why 9/11 happened and who was involved was done without torture. Most investigations can be done without being a sick rough ridin' human being.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Do you have any remorse that innocent people were subjected to harsh punishment at the hands of the United States? Punishment that provided next to nothing?

No, because I don't believe that has happened (well, I guess I'll limit this to post 9/11 - never say never).

I also don't conflate these forms of interrogation with "punishment" - they were used to get people talking.

I also don't believe the information obtained was "next to nothing." Numerous individuals with the CIA attest that valuable information was obtained through the program, sometimes corroborative, sometimes of first impression. I'm inclined to believe these men as opposed to a cherry-picked political hackjob written exclusively by Dem staffers - without even interviewing anyone (it was based solely on review of partially declassified documents) - in the waning days of Sen. Feinstein's leadership of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

[sonofdaxjones]

Does anyone actually know or even ask what happens to the guys we let go from Gitmo?   Are they just being carted off to some 3rd world hell hole?

[Kat Kid]

Do you have any remorse that innocent people were subjected to harsh punishment at the hands of the United States? Punishment that provided next to nothing?

No, because I don't believe that has happened (well, I guess I'll limit this to post 9/11 - never say never).

I also don't conflate these forms of interrogation with "punishment" - they were used to get people talking.

I also don't believe the information obtained was "next to nothing." Numerous individuals with the CIA attest that valuable information was obtained through the program, sometimes corroborative, sometimes of first impression. I'm inclined to believe these men as opposed to a cherry-picked political hackjob written exclusively by Dem staffers - without even interviewing anyone (it was based solely on review of partially declassified documents) - in the waning days of Sen. Feinstein's leadership of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Do you have a response to the evidence I posted?  The CIA's own internal documents say that 26 of the 119 prisoners were innocent.  I documented a guy that their own internal documents identified as a case of mistaken identity as tortured to death.  You chose not to respond and now are denying his existence.