“The question would be how much you could read before they grabbed you"

[Kat Kid]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-waterboardings-role-in-identifying-a-terrorist/2014/12/08/40bc2578-7ee2-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html

It really is something how everyone involved in the torture of prisoners under U.S. authority has come out strongly against the report detailing how they tortured people.

You're entitled to your own opinions, KK, but not your own facts. If you want to argue that waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation may be effective, but is still morally wrong, go right ahead.

"enhanced interrogation" is Orwellian double speak if I've ever heard it.  You should go ahead and own the fact that you support torture, effective or not.  I absolutely believe torture is wrong.  Period.  The fact that the CIA point person on torture destroyed the videotapes from the interrogation rooms is telling, is it not?

The facts are precisely why a comprehensive report about what happened is welcomed by no one in Washington D.C.  Not Obama, not Bush, not the the members of torture bureaucracy. 

I can only hope that the report (now over two years delayed, an including the bugging of Senate offices by the CIA) will indeed be released so that I don't have to weigh NYTimes reporting with self-interested sources against a Marc Thiessen piece that makes absolutely no excuses in its support for torture. 

I welcome a full account of precisely what we have learned from torturing suspects, only then can we weigh it against violating the UN convention on torture ratified under Reagan.  Remember, this report is only focused on the CIA programs and makes zero promise of any actual accountability for those that brazenly broke the law.  But it is a start.

[Kat Kid]

KSUW you'll never guess who else hasn't read the report but thinks it is a bunch of lies.....Dick Cheney!

http://goo.gl/HHuWwA

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

KSUW you'll never guess who else hasn't read the report but thinks it is a bunch of lies.....Dick Cheney!

http://goo.gl/HHuWwA

He doesn't need to read it, he lived it!

[Kat Kid]

Yeah you are right.  Like this:

[michigancat]

I'm reading this right now: http://www.amazon.com/Hubris-Inside-Story-Scandal-Selling/dp/030734682X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1418088038&sr=8-1&keywords=hubris

seems relevant to that interrogation

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Al-libi is a pseudonym, right? Like, that sounds like a terrorist that might hang out with Alotta Fagina from Austin Powers.

[Kat Kid]

I'm reading this right now: http://www.amazon.com/Hubris-Inside-Story-Scandal-Selling/dp/030734682X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1418088038&sr=8-1&keywords=hubris

seems relevant to that interrogation

It is a good book.  I think the 1% doctrine is the best book for understanding Cheney though.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

It must be weird to have no moral compass of your own, but to only find morality on a purely partisan basis and on such a narrow basis. Such a fascinating study in the soulless leftbot.

[michigancat]

It must be weird to have no moral compass of your own, but to only find morality on a purely partisan basis and on such a narrow basis. Such a fascinating study in the soulless leftbot.

have you noticed kk saying Obama is just as guilty? you don't need to answer

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

It must be weird to have no moral compass of your own, but to only find morality on a purely partisan basis and on such a narrow basis. Such a fascinating study in the soulless leftbot.

have you noticed kk saying Obama is just as guilty? you don't need to answer

That's not my point, and it's not just KK I'm talking about. But let's be real, these people only acknowledge Obama is in the wrong when someone forces them to. Otherwise it's a pathetic crusade against bush cheney.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

"enhanced interrogation" is Orwellian double speak if I've ever heard it.  You should go ahead and own the fact that you support torture, effective or not.

Just so there's no confusion, I'll go right ahead and "own" supporting this kind of "torture." I use the term "enhanced interrogation" not to sugarcoat things, but because it's easier than saying "waterboarding, stress positions, sleep deprivation, nudity, and all the other things we did to eventually wear these fuckers down into submission." None of that is real "torture." For that, you should ask the Japanese, the NVA, the very savages we're currently fighting, etc.

This is not a debate I'm really interested in having with you. As I said, you are entitled to your opinion. I'm not going to change it. I'm just going to point out the fact that "enhanced interrogation" (see list above) produced valuable intel.

[Kat Kid]

"enhanced interrogation" is Orwellian double speak if I've ever heard it.  You should go ahead and own the fact that you support torture, effective or not.

Just so there's no confusion, I'll go right ahead and "own" supporting this kind of "torture." I use the term "enhanced interrogation" not to sugarcoat things, but because it's easier than saying "waterboarding, stress positions, sleep deprivation, nudity, and all the other things we did to eventually wear these fuckers down into submission." None of that is real "torture." For that, you should ask the Japanese, the NVA, the very savages we're currently fighting, etc.

This is not a debate I'm really interested in having with you. As I said, you are entitled to your opinion. I'm not going to change it. I'm just going to point out the fact that "enhanced interrogation" (see list above) produced valuable intel.

That is a serious claim that should have more support than a Marc Thiessen op-Ed.  What if it did get us Jose Padilla but also got us lots of false leads like the one I posted.

I just don't know how anyone who has made someone else say "uncle" could legitimately think that this regime would produce quality intelligence.

Also, you should really read up on the Nazis and the enhanced interrogation techniques they used.  In fact the term is borrowed from the Gestapo.  It was specifically designed to prevent later prosecution for war crimes as it left no marks.  It included:

Dark cell
Sleep deprivation
Hard bed
Exhaustion exercises
Hitting prisoners with a stick up to 20 blows.  More than 20 and a doctor had to be present.

So yeah, it pisses me off that the United States of America has resorted to literally Gestapo techniques both in actual actions and in propaganda.  That goes for Bush and Obama.  Holder, Brennan, Kerry, Clinton all of them should be judged as morally equivalent to Cheney.

At least Cheney owns his bloodthirsty rage.  The Obama administration just cravenly covers our past, Guantanamo and our ongoing global drone wars.  I have little hope that this report will change anything today, but hopefully it will serve as an important historical document that will help shed light on this darkness.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

That is a serious claim that should have more support than a Marc Thiessen op-Ed.  What if it did get us Jose Padilla but also got us lots of false leads like the one I posted.

I'll go ahead and assume that it yielded a lot of false leads, just like any other kind of interrogation. It also got people talking and yielded valuable intel.

[michigancat]

That is a serious claim that should have more support than a Marc Thiessen op-Ed.  What if it did get us Jose Padilla but also got us lots of false leads like the one I posted.

I'll go ahead and assume that it yielded a lot of false leads, just like any other kind of interrogation. It also got people talking and yielded valuable intel.

just like any other kind of interrogation

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

https://www.scribd.com/doc/246578813/An-Interrogator-Breaks-His-Silence

[michigancat]

https://www.scribd.com/doc/246578813/An-Interrogator-Breaks-His-Silence

did not read but goddam what an bad person. Is this supposed to be an argument for torture?

[Kat Kid]

Well, here it is

As for the relative success of the CIA's torture sessions:

The Senate Intelligence Committee reviewed 20 cited examples of intelligence “successes” that the CIA identified from the interrogation program and found that there was no relationship between a cited counterterrorism success and the techniques used. Furthermore, the information gleaned during torture sessions merely corroborated information already available to the intelligence community from other sources, including reports, communications intercepts, and information from law enforcement agencies, the committee found.

[CNS]

Washington (CNN) -- The CIA's harsh interrogations of terrorist detainees during the Bush era didn't work, were more brutal than previously revealed and delivered no "ticking time bomb" information that prevented an attack....

[Kat Kid]

CNN still won't call it torture though.

[Kat Kid]

Wow.  Bush had no idea what his administration was doing FOR FOUR YEARS and was purposefully kept in the dark by people in his administration and the CIA.

[D]espite agency efforts to keep the Bush administration informed about the program, top White House officials repeatedly resisted having the CIA brief cabinet-level figures about the details, and CIA officials were not permitted to brief Bush directly until mid-2006, more than four years after the president signed a broad executive order authorizing the program, according to Senate Democratic aides who briefed reporters ahead of Tuesday’s release.

When Bush finally heard the details of the harsh interrogation techniques that were used against CIA detainees, he was “uncomfortable” with some of them and expressed dismay that some detainees were required to remain in stress positions for long amounts of time, to the point that they had no choice but to soil themselves, the aides said.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Well, here it is

As for the relative success of the CIA's torture sessions:

The Senate Intelligence Committee reviewed 20 cited examples of intelligence “successes” that the CIA identified from the interrogation program and found that there was no relationship between a cited counterterrorism success and the techniques used. Furthermore, the information gleaned during torture sessions merely corroborated information already available to the intelligence community from other sources, including reports, communications intercepts, and information from law enforcement agencies, the committee found.

Good to know Senator Feinstein (D-CA) is okay droning alleged terrorists and every man, woman and child within 200 yards, based upon uncorroborated intelligence.

You are fooling yourself if you can't see through the partisan bullshit here.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

Wow.  Bush had no idea what his administration was doing FOR FOUR YEARS and was purposefully kept in the dark by people in his administration and the CIA.

Not surprising. Kind of like Obama and Obamacare. You're not lying if you don't know.

[star seed 7]

Keep beating the partisan drum fsd, it's making you look very intelligent 

[chuckjames]

Keep beating the partisan drum fsd, it's making you look very intelligent 

He is the voice of the silent majority center, IMO.

[michigancat]

killed a guy, no repercussions, because