Author Topic: Israel - Hamas peace process  (Read 59813 times)

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Offline I_have_purplewood

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #500 on: October 11, 2023, 09:34:44 AM »
There sure is a very healthy and open debate out there with lots of people getting an open and fair hearing on the Hamas / Israel question. Everywhere you turn in the media there are Hamas spokespeople debating IDF spokespeople on round table discussions on the history of Israel / Palestine and the latest in this war.

In the real world, in the UK waving a Palestinian flag is a criminal offense.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/10/people-supporting-hamas-in-uk-will-be-held-to-account-says-rishi-sunak

Have not heard the free speech warriors on here talk about this one yet, but I eagerly await to see where this places them on the free speech continuum. Is “forced to say pronouns” to “we don’t want this right wing freak to give a talk at our school”  worse than a possible 10 year jail sentence?

You must be happy that we live in a country where you can have a Congress person hang a Palestinian flag on her door in light of the atrocities that happened and innocent Americans being killed?  You must be happy that we live in a country where Palestinians can have vile demonstrations mocking Jewish protests that might be right across the street from them?  You must be happy that we have to go on high alert to protect Synagogues across our country when you think it would be the other way around?

Please continue to beat the drum of the oppressed Hamas, a terrorist group that's sole purpose is to annihilate the Jews.  I can't get enough of the apartheid state they've created in your eyes.

Has Israel done many things wrong?  Sure they have but it doesn't warrant a backlash when a terrorist group infiltrates their country and kills innocent women and children and babies.  It's disgusting on so many levels.  People on here continue to skim over the fact that Americans have been killed and could be being held hostage and are outraged that innocent Palestinians are going to be killed when hundreds of Jews have already been butchered.

It is something to behold that there is acceptance of Palestinians waving swastikas in the face of Jews and it gets nothing more than a mere shrug on here?  The double standards rear their ugly head once again. 

I will go ahead and double down on the anti-Semitism that seems to be happening on this board.  And anyone who gets offended by this, please prove that I'm wrong by saying that you aren't.  Please tell me that it's not ok to hate the Jewish people because of what they have done in the past and that they have some credence in protecting the country that was attacked by a terrorist organization.
Fifteen minutes later, when the Kansas locker room opened its doors to the media, the Jayhawks were still crying. Literally, bawling. All of them. I've never seen anything like it, and I've seen devastated college locker rooms -- after losses in the Final Four, the national championship game -- ever

Offline DQ12

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #501 on: October 11, 2023, 09:41:09 AM »
There sure is a very healthy and open debate out there with lots of people getting an open and fair hearing on the Hamas / Israel question. Everywhere you turn in the media there are Hamas spokespeople debating IDF spokespeople on round table discussions on the history of Israel / Palestine and the latest in this war.

In the real world, in the UK waving a Palestinian flag is a criminal offense.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/10/people-supporting-hamas-in-uk-will-be-held-to-account-says-rishi-sunak

Have not heard the free speech warriors on here talk about this one yet, but I eagerly await to see where this places them on the free speech continuum. Is “forced to say pronouns” to “we don’t want this right wing freak to give a talk at our school”  worse than a possible 10 year jail sentence?
Political speech (which pro-palestinian speech is, imo) is the most important speech to be protected, IYAM. 


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #502 on: October 11, 2023, 09:48:05 AM »
Hell yes brother
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline wetwillie

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #503 on: October 11, 2023, 09:48:33 AM »
There sure is a very healthy and open debate out there with lots of people getting an open and fair hearing on the Hamas / Israel question. Everywhere you turn in the media there are Hamas spokespeople debating IDF spokespeople on round table discussions on the history of Israel / Palestine and the latest in this war.

In the real world, in the UK waving a Palestinian flag is a criminal offense.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/10/people-supporting-hamas-in-uk-will-be-held-to-account-says-rishi-sunak

Have not heard the free speech warriors on here talk about this one yet, but I eagerly await to see where this places them on the free speech continuum. Is “forced to say pronouns” to “we don’t want this right wing freak to give a talk at our school”  worse than a possible 10 year jail sentence?

You must be happy that we live in a country where you can have a Congress person hang a Palestinian flag on her door in light of the atrocities that happened and innocent Americans being killed?  You must be happy that we live in a country where Palestinians can have vile demonstrations mocking Jewish protests that might be right across the street from them?  You must be happy that we have to go on high alert to protect Synagogues across our country when you think it would be the other way around?

Please continue to beat the drum of the oppressed Hamas, a terrorist group that's sole purpose is to annihilate the Jews.  I can't get enough of the apartheid state they've created in your eyes.

Has Israel done many things wrong?  Sure they have but it doesn't warrant a backlash when a terrorist group infiltrates their country and kills innocent women and children and babies.  It's disgusting on so many levels.  People on here continue to skim over the fact that Americans have been killed and could be being held hostage and are outraged that innocent Palestinians are going to be killed when hundreds of Jews have already been butchered.

It is something to behold that there is acceptance of Palestinians waving swastikas in the face of Jews and it gets nothing more than a mere shrug on here?  The double standards rear their ugly head once again. 

I will go ahead and double down on the anti-Semitism that seems to be happening on this board.  And anyone who gets offended by this, please prove that I'm wrong by saying that you aren't.  Please tell me that it's not ok to hate the Jewish people because of what they have done in the past and that they have some credence in protecting the country that was attacked by a terrorist organization.


It's possible to be pro-Semite and also recognize that Israel is behaving poorly in their handling of Gaza/Westbank.
When the bullets are flying, that's when I'm at my best

Offline I_have_purplewood

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #504 on: October 11, 2023, 09:54:08 AM »
There sure is a very healthy and open debate out there with lots of people getting an open and fair hearing on the Hamas / Israel question. Everywhere you turn in the media there are Hamas spokespeople debating IDF spokespeople on round table discussions on the history of Israel / Palestine and the latest in this war.

In the real world, in the UK waving a Palestinian flag is a criminal offense.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/10/people-supporting-hamas-in-uk-will-be-held-to-account-says-rishi-sunak

Have not heard the free speech warriors on here talk about this one yet, but I eagerly await to see where this places them on the free speech continuum. Is “forced to say pronouns” to “we don’t want this right wing freak to give a talk at our school”  worse than a possible 10 year jail sentence?

You must be happy that we live in a country where you can have a Congress person hang a Palestinian flag on her door in light of the atrocities that happened and innocent Americans being killed?  You must be happy that we live in a country where Palestinians can have vile demonstrations mocking Jewish protests that might be right across the street from them?  You must be happy that we have to go on high alert to protect Synagogues across our country when you think it would be the other way around?

Please continue to beat the drum of the oppressed Hamas, a terrorist group that's sole purpose is to annihilate the Jews.  I can't get enough of the apartheid state they've created in your eyes.

Has Israel done many things wrong?  Sure they have but it doesn't warrant a backlash when a terrorist group infiltrates their country and kills innocent women and children and babies.  It's disgusting on so many levels.  People on here continue to skim over the fact that Americans have been killed and could be being held hostage and are outraged that innocent Palestinians are going to be killed when hundreds of Jews have already been butchered.

It is something to behold that there is acceptance of Palestinians waving swastikas in the face of Jews and it gets nothing more than a mere shrug on here?  The double standards rear their ugly head once again. 

I will go ahead and double down on the anti-Semitism that seems to be happening on this board.  And anyone who gets offended by this, please prove that I'm wrong by saying that you aren't.  Please tell me that it's not ok to hate the Jewish people because of what they have done in the past and that they have some credence in protecting the country that was attacked by a terrorist organization.


It's possible to be pro-Semite and also recognize that Israel is behaving poorly in their handling of Gaza/Westbank.

I don't disagree with you. 
Fifteen minutes later, when the Kansas locker room opened its doors to the media, the Jayhawks were still crying. Literally, bawling. All of them. I've never seen anything like it, and I've seen devastated college locker rooms -- after losses in the Final Four, the national championship game -- ever

Online michigancat

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #505 on: October 11, 2023, 09:56:09 AM »
It's possible to be pro-Semite and also recognize that Israel is behaving poorly in their handling of Gaza/Westbank.

Yeah, I think you can also want less brutality for Palestinians but not support the Hamas attacks.

Not all Palestinians are Hamas just like not all Jews are IDF. A lot of folks tend to frame it that way, or at least be ambiguous enough about it to cause hatred toward innocent people.

Offline _33

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #506 on: October 11, 2023, 10:05:36 AM »
There sure is a very healthy and open debate out there with lots of people getting an open and fair hearing on the Hamas / Israel question. Everywhere you turn in the media there are Hamas spokespeople debating IDF spokespeople on round table discussions on the history of Israel / Palestine and the latest in this war.

In the real world, in the UK waving a Palestinian flag is a criminal offense.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/10/people-supporting-hamas-in-uk-will-be-held-to-account-says-rishi-sunak

Have not heard the free speech warriors on here talk about this one yet, but I eagerly await to see where this places them on the free speech continuum. Is “forced to say pronouns” to “we don’t want this right wing freak to give a talk at our school”  worse than a possible 10 year jail sentence?

You must be happy that we live in a country where you can have a Congress person hang a Palestinian flag on her door in light of the atrocities that happened and innocent Americans being killed?  You must be happy that we live in a country where Palestinians can have vile demonstrations mocking Jewish protests that might be right across the street from them?  You must be happy that we have to go on high alert to protect Synagogues across our country when you think it would be the other way around?

Please continue to beat the drum of the oppressed Hamas, a terrorist group that's sole purpose is to annihilate the Jews.  I can't get enough of the apartheid state they've created in your eyes.

Has Israel done many things wrong?  Sure they have but it doesn't warrant a backlash when a terrorist group infiltrates their country and kills innocent women and children and babies.  It's disgusting on so many levels.  People on here continue to skim over the fact that Americans have been killed and could be being held hostage and are outraged that innocent Palestinians are going to be killed when hundreds of Jews have already been butchered.

It is something to behold that there is acceptance of Palestinians waving swastikas in the face of Jews and it gets nothing more than a mere shrug on here?  The double standards rear their ugly head once again. 

I will go ahead and double down on the anti-Semitism that seems to be happening on this board.  And anyone who gets offended by this, please prove that I'm wrong by saying that you aren't.  Please tell me that it's not ok to hate the Jewish people because of what they have done in the past and that they have some credence in protecting the country that was attacked by a terrorist organization.


It's possible to be pro-Semite and also recognize that Israel is behaving poorly in their handling of Gaza/Westbank.

I don't disagree with you. 

Sure. It's also possible to be pro-Palestinian but adamantly take Israel's side against Hamas.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #507 on: October 11, 2023, 10:25:10 AM »
I think just like there is a difference between waving a swastika and waving a Palestinian flag, there is a difference between hoping that Hamas is discredited by this and that peace and a two-state solution will be the outcome here, and looking at what is currently happening and is about to happen and thinking that the result will be the opposite. It isn't "fair" that Israel should pull its punches here and find a different way forward, but I look at the last two intifadas and everything that has happened on the ground and fail to see what will make this round any different other than probably just worse for both sides.

I'll ask again, how is bombing Gaza going to achieve anything besides revenge? "Mowing the lawn" isn't even pitched as a successful strategy on its own terms, just as something inevitable.

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #508 on: October 11, 2023, 10:32:05 AM »
I think just like there is a difference between waving a swastika and waving a Palestinian flag, there is a difference between hoping that Hamas is discredited by this and that peace and a two-state solution will be the outcome here, and looking at what is currently happening and is about to happen and thinking that the result will be the opposite. It isn't "fair" that Israel should pull its punches here and find a different way forward, but I look at the last two intifadas and everything that has happened on the ground and fail to see what will make this round any different other than probably just worse for both sides.

I'll ask again, how is bombing Gaza going to achieve anything besides revenge? "Mowing the lawn" isn't even pitched as a successful strategy on its own terms, just as something inevitable.
Yeah. You're right, of course.  Unfortunately we (broadly speaking) just don't really react that way.  Vengeance is a powerful force, especially when it's justified. 

There are probably some examples in human history of a state/group being attacked like Israel just was and reacting soberly, but I can't think of any right now.


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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #509 on: October 11, 2023, 10:37:57 AM »
I don’t pretend to speak for Hamas, but one really likely thing that they did is prevent Saudi Arabia from throwing them under the bus by normalizing relations with Israel with no pre conditions on Palestine. Looking at Qatar and Saudi Arabia’s statements they have rallied at least a bit of support in the gulf.

As far as why they would try something like this, I think you can look at the 17 year blockade that Gaza has been living under and the increasing violence and evictions in the West Bank. Speaking of the West Bank, it is not under Hamas’ leadership, has had pliant, cooperative, secular leadership and that has been rewarded with brutality, intransigence, and an increased pace of illegal settlements. So desperation is another reason.

Obviously the brutality of the action is shocking, but it is an inevitability that we will see thousands of innocent civilians in Palestine pay the price for this. Hamas did not care about their lives either. But it is worth taking a moment to consider the misery that this brutality came from. Because I unless we learn something we will be watching this all happen again.

Why do you think Israel stopped short of returning the entirety of Area C under the Oslo Accords?

Is it anything more than they didn't return area c because they didn't have to and no one will force them to do so? Like with Egypt, none of this is going to get normalized until Israel elects leaders who want work with the Palestinians and stop treating their citizens worse than dogs.

The greater issue with "Area C" is the continued and deliberate expansion of illegal settlement within it.

This isn't an issue of just not returning the land as prescribed.

That's fair

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #510 on: October 11, 2023, 10:39:42 AM »
It's possible to be pro-Semite and also recognize that Israel is behaving poorly in their handling of Gaza/Westbank.

Yeah, I think you can also want less brutality for Palestinians but not support the Hamas attacks.

Not all Palestinians are Hamas just like not all Jews are IDF. A lot of folks tend to frame it that way, or at least be ambiguous enough about it to cause hatred toward innocent people.

No, not a lot, as usual just a very loud minority of people who are either bad faith actors or ignorant as to what's going on.

Offline I_have_purplewood

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #511 on: October 11, 2023, 10:41:18 AM »
I think just like there is a difference between waving a swastika and waving a Palestinian flag, there is a difference between hoping that Hamas is discredited by this and that peace and a two-state solution will be the outcome here, and looking at what is currently happening and is about to happen and thinking that the result will be the opposite. It isn't "fair" that Israel should pull its punches here and find a different way forward, but I look at the last two intifadas and everything that has happened on the ground and fail to see what will make this round any different other than probably just worse for both sides.

I'll ask again, how is bombing Gaza going to achieve anything besides revenge? "Mowing the lawn" isn't even pitched as a successful strategy on its own terms, just as something inevitable.

Israel:  Ok Hamas, before we start peace negotiations again I want to make sure you keep to your word that nothing like this will ever happen again?  I mean you got us good this time..

Hamas: Oh um, yeah.  Just give us some more land, money and um quit being so mean to us.  Done deal.

Israel:  Great!  Let's get this going.

Things have escalated to a point where I'm not sure much can be done to salvage peace.  I hope I'm incorrect.  This is what Hamas (and other factions) wanted.  What would you propose that could possibly work especially after the terrorist attack that happened?
Fifteen minutes later, when the Kansas locker room opened its doors to the media, the Jayhawks were still crying. Literally, bawling. All of them. I've never seen anything like it, and I've seen devastated college locker rooms -- after losses in the Final Four, the national championship game -- ever

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #512 on: October 11, 2023, 10:46:39 AM »
I think this is a well written piece. It is striking how differently the ranges of opinion are in the Financial Times/UK vs. the US.

It is worth remembering how Arafat and the PLO were portrayed as not being "partners for peace" and then Rabin got assassinated and Netanyahu rose to power and now his cabinet is filled with people who openly celebrated Rabin getting clipped. The US made a strategic error in promoting Islamist groups because we didn't like the secular/communist PLO and other pan-Arab groups collaboration with the USSR and now we are all living with the world that was made by Churchill, the Berlin conference, and western intelligence services.

I am as pessimistic as ever on peace and I don't even think people are even prepared for what would happen if this thing expands. 

I hope it doesn't.

   Opinion Israel-Hamas war
All involved in the Israel-Hamas conflict should heed the warnings of 1982
Every fresh attempt to wipe out Palestinian militant groups only forges more extreme iterations
KIM GHATTAS

The writer is author of ‘Black Wave’ and distinguished fellow at Columbia University’s Institute of Global Politics

The siege of Gaza has started and Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has promised “mighty vengeance”, vowing to “eliminate” Hamas after the horror its militants unleashed on Israel at the weekend. Hamas may be driven out from the impoverished Gaza Strip; Netanyahu claims his actions will “change the Middle East”.

There have been four wars between Israel and Hamas since the group violently took over the territory in 2007, each one ending with a return to the untenable status quo. But there are echoes of the summer of 1982, when then defence minister Ariel Sharon vowed to purge the Palestinian Liberation Organisation from southern Lebanon. He too wanted to change the Middle East.

With a nod and a wink from US secretary of state Alexander Haig, Sharon sent his troops all the way to Beirut, laying siege to the city for two months. Even though the PLO did end up leaving Lebanon, Israel’s first large-scale ground war against a non-state entity was one of its worst strategic blunders — and led to the massacre of Sabra and Shatila by Israel’s Lebanese Christian allies. We are still living with the consequences of Sharon’s hubris and Haig’s wink, including the birth of an axis of resistance from Damascus to Tehran.

Israel wanted not only to evict the PLO but also to help install a friendly government in Beirut with which to make peace, while bringing Syria to its knees, and perhaps to the table, by pummelling its armed forces in Lebanon. And all of this without making a single concession to the Palestinians. If Netanyahu thinks that this time he can bomb Gaza and then return to normalisation talks with the Saudis without offering anything substantive to the Palestinians, he would be gravely misreading Riyadh.

The lesson of the past four decades is also that every attempt to wipe out Palestinian armed groups has only produced more extreme iterations and worse conundrums. Two days after Israel’s invasion of Lebanon, a planeload of Iranian Revolutionary Guards arrived in Damascus and headed to Lebanon’s Bekaa Valley with Syrian president Hafez al-Assad’s blessing. Since Iran arrived in the Levant, it has never left. Hizbollah — Tehran’s most successful export since the 1979 Iranian revolution — was formed, and with Iran, vowed to evict America from Lebanon and the Middle East. In 1983, the US suffered a devastating blow when suicide trucks blew up first its embassy in Beirut and then the Marine contingent of a US-French multinational Force. President Ronald Reagan pulled out the Marines, briefly keeping US warships off the coast of Lebanon.

Syria bided its time while the Soviets replenished its arsenal, becoming the ultimate arsonist of American plans in the region while posing as a firefighter. Damascus fulfils a different role today as Iran, Hizbollah and Russia maintain a heavy presence on its soil.

With US citizens now among both the dead and the hostages from Hamas’s lightning attack, and a US carrier strike group on its way, America is now involved beyond simply being Israel’s ally — just as it was in Lebanon, minus the troops on the ground. Israel is seeking revenge, but the US should heed the wider warnings from 1982.

Back then, the Soviets were looking for ways to regain influence in the Middle East, where they had lost considerable ground after Egypt switched sides to become a US ally. The Soviet ambassador in Beirut, Alexander Soldatov, made clear that Moscow was opposed to any American success in the Middle East and worked to scupper the US-brokered deal between Lebanon and Israel. Soldatov also vowed to stop the US getting out of Lebanon safely while the Reagan administration was assisting the anti-Soviet Mujahedeen in Afghanistan.

There is no evidence that the Soviets had a hand in the devastating attack against the Marines in October 1983 but agendas aligned from Moscow to Tehran and Damascus. Similarly, there is no evidence that Russia provided any kind of support for the horror that unfolded in Israel on Saturday and Moscow maintains good ties with Tel Aviv — so far. But anti-American agendas still align, especially while Washington supports Ukraine and is pushing to normalise ties between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Iran has been supplying Moscow with drones. Hamas leaders have made several visits to Russia recently.

At its core, the current conflict is about the longest occupation in modern history, one that leaves the Palestinians dispossessed while Israel quests relentlessly for its security. But the bigger picture is one of regional shifts and global alliances reaching a critical juncture. The danger now is of more strategic blunders that will only perpetuate the violence for years to come.

Offline I_have_purplewood

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #513 on: October 11, 2023, 10:47:11 AM »
It's possible to be pro-Semite and also recognize that Israel is behaving poorly in their handling of Gaza/Westbank.

Yeah, I think you can also want less brutality for Palestinians but not support the Hamas attacks.

Not all Palestinians are Hamas just like not all Jews are IDF. A lot of folks tend to frame it that way, or at least be ambiguous enough about it to cause hatred toward innocent people.

No, not a lot, as usual just a very loud minority of people who are either bad faith actors or ignorant as to what's going on.

:lol: :lol:  Loud minority on this board?  God forbid there is a different view of looking at things huh?  And I'm incredibly envious of your great knowledge of what's going on currently.  Would you be able to volunteer to start the peace process for us?  Would be great for this board.
Fifteen minutes later, when the Kansas locker room opened its doors to the media, the Jayhawks were still crying. Literally, bawling. All of them. I've never seen anything like it, and I've seen devastated college locker rooms -- after losses in the Final Four, the national championship game -- ever

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #514 on: October 11, 2023, 10:52:03 AM »
I think just like there is a difference between waving a swastika and waving a Palestinian flag, there is a difference between hoping that Hamas is discredited by this and that peace and a two-state solution will be the outcome here, and looking at what is currently happening and is about to happen and thinking that the result will be the opposite. It isn't "fair" that Israel should pull its punches here and find a different way forward, but I look at the last two intifadas and everything that has happened on the ground and fail to see what will make this round any different other than probably just worse for both sides.

I'll ask again, how is bombing Gaza going to achieve anything besides revenge? "Mowing the lawn" isn't even pitched as a successful strategy on its own terms, just as something inevitable.

Israel:  Ok Hamas, before we start peace negotiations again I want to make sure you keep to your word that nothing like this will ever happen again?  I mean you got us good this time..

Hamas: Oh um, yeah.  Just give us some more land, money and um quit being so mean to us.  Done deal.

Israel:  Great!  Let's get this going.

Things have escalated to a point where I'm not sure much can be done to salvage peace.  I hope I'm incorrect.  This is what Hamas (and other factions) wanted.  What would you propose that could possibly work especially after the terrorist attack that happened?

I don't disagree.

Peace, if and when it ever happens, will be handled in the same way it has been done in many other examples---at a negotiating table.

I think everyone here would prefer the Good Friday Agreement, as opposed to the example of how things went for the indigenous people in the US and Australia.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #515 on: October 11, 2023, 10:53:39 AM »
Not a lot of diplomats in this administration.

All Blinks and company do is threaten war or sanctions


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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #516 on: October 11, 2023, 11:01:04 AM »
Not a lot of diplomats in this administration.

All Blinks and company do is threaten war or sanctions

I think Burns is probably the best of the bunch. Hopefully they send him.

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #517 on: October 11, 2023, 11:46:27 AM »
I think just like there is a difference between waving a swastika and waving a Palestinian flag, there is a difference between hoping that Hamas is discredited by this and that peace and a two-state solution will be the outcome here, and looking at what is currently happening and is about to happen and thinking that the result will be the opposite. It isn't "fair" that Israel should pull its punches here and find a different way forward, but I look at the last two intifadas and everything that has happened on the ground and fail to see what will make this round any different other than probably just worse for both sides.

I'll ask again, how is bombing Gaza going to achieve anything besides revenge? "Mowing the lawn" isn't even pitched as a successful strategy on its own terms, just as something inevitable.

Israel:  Ok Hamas, before we start peace negotiations again I want to make sure you keep to your word that nothing like this will ever happen again?  I mean you got us good this time..

Hamas: Oh um, yeah.  Just give us some more land, money and um quit being so mean to us.  Done deal.

Israel:  Great!  Let's get this going.

Things have escalated to a point where I'm not sure much can be done to salvage peace.  I hope I'm incorrect.  This is what Hamas (and other factions) wanted.  What would you propose that could possibly work especially after the terrorist attack that happened?

I am not sure that a terrorist attack isn't what both sides(Hamas and Isreal) wanted.

Offline wetwillie

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #518 on: October 11, 2023, 11:58:21 AM »
The only way I see Israel shifting strategy is if the US drastically changes course on US/Israel relations. That outcome seems improbable at best.
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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #519 on: October 11, 2023, 12:37:17 PM »
I think just like there is a difference between waving a swastika and waving a Palestinian flag, there is a difference between hoping that Hamas is discredited by this and that peace and a two-state solution will be the outcome here, and looking at what is currently happening and is about to happen and thinking that the result will be the opposite. It isn't "fair" that Israel should pull its punches here and find a different way forward, but I look at the last two intifadas and everything that has happened on the ground and fail to see what will make this round any different other than probably just worse for both sides.

I'll ask again, how is bombing Gaza going to achieve anything besides revenge? "Mowing the lawn" isn't even pitched as a successful strategy on its own terms, just as something inevitable.

Israel:  Ok Hamas, before we start peace negotiations again I want to make sure you keep to your word that nothing like this will ever happen again?  I mean you got us good this time..

Hamas: Oh um, yeah.  Just give us some more land, money and um quit being so mean to us.  Done deal.

Israel:  Great!  Let's get this going.

Things have escalated to a point where I'm not sure much can be done to salvage peace.  I hope I'm incorrect.  This is what Hamas (and other factions) wanted.  What would you propose that could possibly work especially after the terrorist attack that happened?

I am not sure that a terrorist attack isn't what both sides(Hamas and Isreal) wanted.

Do you mean Palestine and Israel?

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #520 on: October 11, 2023, 12:59:03 PM »
There sure is a very healthy and open debate out there with lots of people getting an open and fair hearing on the Hamas / Israel question. Everywhere you turn in the media there are Hamas spokespeople debating IDF spokespeople on round table discussions on the history of Israel / Palestine and the latest in this war.

In the real world, in the UK waving a Palestinian flag is a criminal offense.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/10/people-supporting-hamas-in-uk-will-be-held-to-account-says-rishi-sunak

Have not heard the free speech warriors on here talk about this one yet, but I eagerly await to see where this places them on the free speech continuum. Is “forced to say pronouns” to “we don’t want this right wing freak to give a talk at our school”  worse than a possible 10 year jail sentence?

You must be happy that we live in a country where you can have a Congress person hang a Palestinian flag on her door in light of the atrocities that happened and innocent Americans being killed?  You must be happy that we live in a country where Palestinians can have vile demonstrations mocking Jewish protests that might be right across the street from them?  You must be happy that we have to go on high alert to protect Synagogues across our country when you think it would be the other way around?

Please continue to beat the drum of the oppressed Hamas, a terrorist group that's sole purpose is to annihilate the Jews.  I can't get enough of the apartheid state they've created in your eyes.

Has Israel done many things wrong?  Sure they have but it doesn't warrant a backlash when a terrorist group infiltrates their country and kills innocent women and children and babies.  It's disgusting on so many levels.  People on here continue to skim over the fact that Americans have been killed and could be being held hostage and are outraged that innocent Palestinians are going to be killed when hundreds of Jews have already been butchered.

It is something to behold that there is acceptance of Palestinians waving swastikas in the face of Jews and it gets nothing more than a mere shrug on here?  The double standards rear their ugly head once again. 

I will go ahead and double down on the anti-Semitism that seems to be happening on this board.  And anyone who gets offended by this, please prove that I'm wrong by saying that you aren't.  Please tell me that it's not ok to hate the Jewish people because of what they have done in the past and that they have some credence in protecting the country that was attacked by a terrorist organization.


It's possible to be pro-Semite and also recognize that Israel is behaving poorly in their handling of Gaza/Westbank.

I don't disagree with you. 

Sure. It's also possible to be pro-Palestinian but adamantly take Israel's side against Hamas.

I'm not sure if that's the case. Can you be pro-Palestine and also pro-Palestinian women and children getting bombed to death in a zone that they can't leave?

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #521 on: October 11, 2023, 01:36:57 PM »
Another great piece I find little to disagree with from FT op-ed page.....

   Opinion Israel-Hamas war
Biden, Netanyahu and America’s choice
The temptation is to offer Israel’s leader unconditional support but it would be wiser to try to break the cycle of violence

EDWARD LUCE

There is no contradiction between reviling terrorism and tackling its roots. Both the following statements are true: Hamas has plumbed new depths of bestial cruelty; Benjamin Netanyahu’s Israel has starved non-violent Palestinian alternatives. Joe Biden movingly expressed his anger at the first on Tuesday. He has not publicly acknowledged the second. The world must hope — but cannot assume — that he also made it clear to Netanyahu that he will strongly oppose the collective punishment of Palestinians.

The danger to America in Israel’s response is acute. Besides the risk of a Middle East conflagration, the US will be blamed around the world for any excesses by the Israel Defense Forces. For years, Washington has turned a blind eye to Netanyahu’s serial breaking of the Oslo accords. New settlements in the occupied territories, expansion of old ones and the undercutting of the Palestinian Authority have humiliated moderate Palestinians and exposed Washington as a one-sided broker.

The last time America took a stab at two-state negotiations was in Barack Obama’s presidency. This was a halfhearted effort up to half a generation ago. When Netanyahu called Obama’s bluff he folded. Donald Trump played cheerleader to Netanyahu’s increasingly open contempt for the two-state process. Biden has acted as though the Palestinian problem no longer exists. Given his other geopolitical challenges, Biden’s wishful thinking may have been understandable. It has now come back to bite him. America can no longer afford to turn a blind eye.

Two things have changed since Obama’s failed attempt to revive peace talks. First, Netanyahu has alienated the large majority of Jewish Americans. The days when Israel could rely on automatic Jewish-American support have gone. For this, the Israeli prime minister is almost single-handedly responsible. In 2015 he broke all protocol when he opposed Obama’s signature Iran nuclear deal in a speech to Congress. Since most Jewish Americans are Democratic, and since the US right has increasingly flirted with antisemitic tropes, this was a reckless gamble. Supporting Netanyahu’s Israel became a Republican thing.

Second, Israel has the most hard-right government in the democratic world. Netanyahu has borrowed antisemitic imagery about George Soros from the likes of Trump and Hungary’s Viktor Orbán. His logic is that Jews can only be safe in Israel, which gives him a warped affinity for nativist groups across the west. To most non-Israeli Jews, and roughly half of Israel, Netanyahu’s ideological bedfellows are repugnant. Yet he is the most moderate member of the government he leads.

Netanyahu’s alliance with the Trumpian wing of US politics gives Biden more space than his predecessors to play the role of honest broker. Every pore in Biden’s body will resist doing that. For almost all of his political career, backing Israel has made bipartisan commonsense. Exactly half a century ago — just nine months after Biden became a US senator — Egypt invaded Israel in the Yom Kippur war. Like today, Israel was caught napping. Unlike today, Israel was the underdog. The safest space for an ambitious Democrat in the following years was to support Israel in all seasons. That is now a contentious position — and a particularly dangerous one for Biden.

Last weekend’s massacres were designed to provoke retaliatory Israeli atrocities in the Gaza Strip, which would validate Hamas’s Manichean worldview and its claim to be the chief legitimate voice of the Palestinian people. It would further undercut Fatah’s control of the occupied West Bank and fan extremism in Israel. Each of these knock-on effects would harm America’s standing and further undermine Israel’s security. The emotional temptation is to offer Netanyahu’s government unconditional support. It is hard to hear stories of slaughtered infants and not succumb to blind vengefulness. The rational position is to reject the playbook that Hamas wants.

Biden’s immediate priority will be to secure the release of American hostages. He has sent an aircraft carrier group to the region. But his overriding goal must be to break the cycle of escalating violence. Last Saturday’s killing was horrific, yet should come as no surprise. Gaza, as others have remarked, is the world’s largest open-air prison. Netanyahu has deprived Palestinians of hope for the future and peaceful outlets to express their frustrations. John F Kennedy, Biden’s original hero, said: “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.” Israelis and Palestinians are on the brink of writing an even darker chapter in their history. Biden has the means to hijack that script. It is the most pro-Israeli thing he could do.

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #522 on: October 11, 2023, 01:54:03 PM »
Yeah, that's pretty spot-on.

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #523 on: October 11, 2023, 01:56:01 PM »
Good things happen when KK posts the article
When the bullets are flying, that's when I'm at my best

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #524 on: October 11, 2023, 02:28:55 PM »
I think just like there is a difference between waving a swastika and waving a Palestinian flag, there is a difference between hoping that Hamas is discredited by this and that peace and a two-state solution will be the outcome here, and looking at what is currently happening and is about to happen and thinking that the result will be the opposite. It isn't "fair" that Israel should pull its punches here and find a different way forward, but I look at the last two intifadas and everything that has happened on the ground and fail to see what will make this round any different other than probably just worse for both sides.

I'll ask again, how is bombing Gaza going to achieve anything besides revenge? "Mowing the lawn" isn't even pitched as a successful strategy on its own terms, just as something inevitable.

Israel:  Ok Hamas, before we start peace negotiations again I want to make sure you keep to your word that nothing like this will ever happen again?  I mean you got us good this time..

Hamas: Oh um, yeah.  Just give us some more land, money and um quit being so mean to us.  Done deal.

Israel:  Great!  Let's get this going.

Things have escalated to a point where I'm not sure much can be done to salvage peace.  I hope I'm incorrect.  This is what Hamas (and other factions) wanted.  What would you propose that could possibly work especially after the terrorist attack that happened?

I am not sure that a terrorist attack isn't what both sides(Hamas and Isreal) wanted.

Do you mean Palestine and Israel?

No, I mean Hamas and Israel. Hamas has stated a bagillion times that they want to wipe Israel off the map.  Israel has been elbowing and stretching into Palestine for years.  A spark that would deem swift action, and unify a large group of people to emotionally support the action, would probably provide both Hamas and Israel the opportunity to go get what they want.  I would imagine Hamas would love what opportunities Israel bombing Palestine would bring them, and I would imagine that Israel would love the opportunities that Hamas terror activities would bring them. 

It seems like all parties have been pointing rockets, guns, and ppl at each other for quite some time now.