Israel - Hamas peace process

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there

1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?:

Unfortunate collateral damage

can't decide if parody so am disengaging

Before disengage suggest an alternative?

"Unfortunate collateral damage" answered no questions. You said "GTFOO". I asked where they should go and pointed out that the IDF says that, even with their superior tech, they can only provide civilians with 15 seconds of warning from an incoming Hamas rocket, which would leave even Usain Bolt dead (again, according to IDF).

They could take cover in a bomb shelter or tunnel. Oh wait, Hamas is too busy spending it's money on tunnels to build any bomb shelter, and the tunnels are strictly for Hamas business (stashing weapons, hiding Hamas, and infiltrating Israel).

In fact, Hamas encourages palestinains not to take cover. They want the collateral damage. Israel tries to minimize collateral damage by dropping leaflets and warning charges (roof knockers, I think they're called) before bombing. In response, Hamas posts things like this:

"Answering the occupation's [Israel's] calls will merely aid it in carrying out its plans to weaken the [Palestinian] home front and to destroy property and homes as soon as you leave them. We call on all our people who have left their homes to return to them immediately."

Facebook page of Hamas Ministry of Interior spokesman Iyad Al-Buzum

Wait, so then what are they supposed to do?

Again, (1) if the Israelis send warning of a strike, GTFO, and (2) stop electing Hamas.

[felix rex]

3) Watch IDF video

[michigancat]

I watched the video, felix.

[felix rex]

"[If a country] is a democracy, all citizens bear responsibility for its government's actions, and civilians are therefore fair targets."

[felix rex]

I watched the video, felix.

You probably laughed at the clips of scrambling Jews, you racist terror-lover.

[Kat Kid]

so far as I can tell ksuw and emo's best case scenario for a Gazan:

1) get text message/leaflet/knock on roof that incoming missile is on way
2) evacuate home (usually have max 10 min. but you don't ever really know)
3) home is bombed
4) get whatever you can recover
5) go to UN refugee shelter such as a hospital which also may or may not be bombed

[felix rex]

let's imagine your head is stuck in your own ass, and the person on the left is threatening to punch you in the balls and the person on the right is pushing on the back of your neck. 

[michigancat]

so far as I can tell ksuw and emo's best case scenario for a Gazan:

1) get text message/leaflet/knock on roof that incoming missile is on way
2) evacuate home (usually have max 10 min. but you don't ever really know)
3) home is bombed
4) get whatever you can recover
5) go to UN refugee shelter such as a hospital which also may or may not be bombed

I think 1) should be "stop voting for terrorists ya big dummy!"

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

so far as I can tell ksuw and emo's best case scenario for a Gazan:

1) get text message/leaflet/knock on roof that incoming missile is on way
2) evacuate home (usually have max 10 min. but you don't ever really know)
3) home is bombed
4) get whatever you can recover
5) go to UN refugee shelter such as a hospital which also may or may not be bombed

They get 10 minutes? That actually sounds like a pretty good set of options if you live in a country that elected a terrorist organization that spends all its money attacking its next door neighbor.

[felix rex]

so far as I can tell ksuw and emo's best case scenario for a Gazan:

1) get text message/leaflet/knock on roof that incoming missile is on way
2) evacuate home (usually have max 10 min. but you don't ever really know)
3) home is bombed
4) get whatever you can recover
5) go to UN refugee shelter such as a hospital which also may or may not be bombed

They get 10 minutes? That actually sounds like a pretty good set of options if you live in a country that elected a terrorist organization that spends all its money attacking its next door neighbor.

"[If a country] is a democracy, all citizens bear responsibility for its government's actions, and civilians are therefore fair targets."

[Panjandrum]

so far as I can tell ksuw and emo's best case scenario for a Gazan:

1) get text message/leaflet/knock on roof that incoming missile is on way
2) evacuate home (usually have max 10 min. but you don't ever really know)
3) home is bombed
4) get whatever you can recover
5) go to UN refugee shelter such as a hospital which also may or may not be bombed

They get 10 minutes? That actually sounds like a pretty good set of options if you live in a country that elected a terrorist organization that spends all its money attacking its next door neighbor.

"[If a country] is a democracy, all citizens bear responsibility for its government's actions, and civilians are therefore fair targets."

/scene

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

so far as I can tell ksuw and emo's best case scenario for a Gazan:

1) get text message/leaflet/knock on roof that incoming missile is on way
2) evacuate home (usually have max 10 min. but you don't ever really know)
3) home is bombed
4) get whatever you can recover
5) go to UN refugee shelter such as a hospital which also may or may not be bombed

They get 10 minutes? That actually sounds like a pretty good set of options if you live in a country that elected a terrorist organization that spends all its money attacking its next door neighbor.

"[If a country] is a democracy, all citizens bear responsibility for its government's actions, and civilians are therefore fair targets."

What point are you trying to make with the OBL quote? Even though the palestinians elected Hamas, the Israelis are not targeting civilians. They try to avoid them.

[felix rex]

If I knew how to quote your post and bold "trying," I would.

[felix rex]

But I'm on my phone, so this will have to suffice.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

But I'm on my phone, so this will have to suffice.

You don't see a difference between "trying to avoid" and "targeting"? Ok then.... That's just dumb, my friend, real dumb.

[felix rex]

I hate to derail this otherwise super productive debate, and (since getting "chummed) I am reluctant to bring up Egypt in non-felix-lives-in-egypt threads. But I feel like this clip is universally enjoyable:  http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4344.htm#.U80srN7xrhZ.twitter

[felix rex]

But I'm on my phone, so this will have to suffice.

You don't see a difference between "trying to avoid" and "targeting"? Ok then.... That's just dumb, my friend, real dumb.

"TRYING"

[felix rex]

maybe it works better in CAPS? May have to take this to the tapatalk thread.

[michigancat]

I hate to derail this otherwise super productive debate, and (since getting "chummed) I am reluctant to bring up Egypt in non-felix-lives-in-egypt threads. But I feel like this clip is universally enjoyable:  http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4344.htm#.U80srN7xrhZ.twitter

the part about the guy playing soccer when his weight allowed was wonderful

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

maybe it works better in CAPS? May have to take this to the tapatalk thread.

No, sorry, maybe TRY again? There is clearly a moral difference in war between trying to avoid civilians (collateral damage) and intentionally inflicting it (terrorism, genocide, etc.).

[star seed 7]

so how much palestinian interactions have you had emo?  can't judge them until you work closely with some for 2 years. 

[felix rex]

I hate to derail this otherwise super productive debate, and (since getting "chummed) I am reluctant to bring up Egypt in non-felix-lives-in-egypt threads. But I feel like this clip is universally enjoyable:  http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4344.htm#.U80srN7xrhZ.twitter

the part about the guy playing soccer when his weight allowed was wonderful

That was my favorite part, too!

[sonofdaxjones]

Sadly Palestinian leadership is still as corrupt as it ever was, and so it's hard to not put their actions on the back of the fact that they're trying to draw attention (once again) and thus keep the money flowing.    Be it the PLO or HAMAS there's a long history of the leadership living a life of luxury while the people suffer.

[Emo EMAW]

It's really just a reflection of your bad person.  Reading books isn't the only way to attain knowledge or experience.  I prefer to go and see myself, when practical.  I tend to not hold strong opinions on anything where I don't have direct experience; I'll either defer to others with direct experience or I don't care.  Frankly this is one of those topics where none of us will convince anyone else of anything. 

Interacting with a small group of Israelis doesn't make you an expert on the origin of the conflict. I thought maybe you'd done some sort of research on the subject that goes beyond the IDF talking points fed to you by coworkers.

And you're wrong, discussions like this change opinions all the time. Just because you're a stubborn bad person who can't reasonably consider new or conflicting information doesn't mean the rest of the world is.

I don't purport to be an expert on the origin of the conflict.

When you post things like this, it definitely seems like you're trying to claim to be an expert on the situation:

I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.  What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?

I'm not an expert.  I don't have a PhD in the matter.  I'm just saying I know more than you because of my life experiences.  But we're both far from experts.  FWIW, the Israelis are the experts, and they are doing what they think is best.  No one here is in a strong position to say it's the wrong thing.  We're all just armchair quarterbacking this thing.

[Emo EMAW]

[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there

1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?:

Unfortunate collateral damage

can't decide if parody so am disengaging

Before disengage suggest an alternative?

"Unfortunate collateral damage" answered no questions. You said "GTFOO". I asked where they should go and pointed out that the IDF says that, even with their superior tech, they can only provide civilians with 15 seconds of warning from an incoming Hamas rocket, which would leave even Usain Bolt dead (again, according to IDF).

First of all, you're comparing two dissimilar things: 1) the rockets Hamas fires into Israel, and 2) the artillery and other targeting attacks Israel launches in counter.

The rockets.  Aren't accurate at all.  Are just sort of lobbed over there in a general direction.  If someone rolls into a Gaza neighborhood and starts setting these things up, that's when the clocks starts to take cover.  That clocks includes time for Hamas to setup the rockets, fire the rockets, transit time till detection by the Israelis, time to calculate the rocket's origin, time to decide the proper counter, time to launch the counter, time for the counter to actually arrive at the scene.  That's easily several minutes.  A person could easily be a half mile away from a rocket launch site by the time Israeli targeted/accurate ordinance is arriving.  The Israelis don't have this luxury.