Ukraine and The Slav Winter

[sonofdaxjones]

    Late last year when Ukraine’s now-ousted president Viktor Yanukovych surprisingly canceled plans for Ukrainian integration into the European Union in favor of stronger ties with Russia, the US may have viewed Ukraine as slipping even further out of its reach.

    At that point, with the pieces already in place, the US moved to support the ousting of Yanukovych, as evidenced by the leaked phone conversation between US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland [arch-Neocon Robert Kagan's wife]  and US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt.  When peaceful protests were not effective in unseating Yanukovych, the violence of the ultra-nationalist Svoboda party and Right Sector was embraced, if not supported by the west.

    In today’s Ukraine, the US runs the risk of being affiliated with anti-Semitic neo-Nazis, a prospect it probably feels can be controlled via a friendly western media. But even if the risk is high, the US likely views it as necessary given the geopolitical importance of Ukraine, as Brzezinski mapped out in 1997.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/03/president-obamas-former-foreign-policy-adviser-said-1997-u-s-gain-control-ukraine.html


http://original.antiwar.com/Chris_Ernesto/2014/03/14/brzezinski-mapped-out-the-battle-for-ukraine-in-1997/

That would be great I think to help glue this thing and have the UN glue it and you know, eff the EU,“ she says, in an apparent reference to differences over their policies.






http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/06/us-ukraine-russia-eu-victoria-nuland

[ednksu]

First off your position on Libya and Syria is the same tired racist talking point that have been recycled for years.  Its sad that your side can't imagine rational actors who aren't white acting in their own self interests.  Just because they are brown doesn't mean they can't rebel against their dictators. 

Second, you really want to bring Yugo into this?  Possibly the best example of intervention working in the modern era? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#UN.2C_NATO.2C_and_OSCE_.281998.E2.80.931999.29
http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/172/89/PDF/N9917289.pdf?OpenElement


And I'm right there with you on wanting WWIII, right now.  But what people have to realize is that there are centuries of principles resting on these decisions.  Are we, as the "West" willing to allow hundreds of years of western statecraft to be dismantled by these actions.  People need to step outside of their own rigidly constructed, self interested, paradigms and realize some of these acts are tearing down the foundations of the modern western world.  The more we allow rogue states to annex countries, indiscriminately use WMDs, and commit genocide the more our principles and moral standards shatter. That is a huge threat to the legitimacy and standing of the West in the world. 

[sonofdaxjones]

First off your position on Libya and Syria is the same tired racist talking point that have been recycled for years.  Its sad that your side can't imagine rational actors who aren't white acting in their own self interests.  Just because they are brown doesn't mean they can't rebel against their dictators. 

Second, you really want to bring Yugo into this?  Possibly the best example of intervention working in the modern era? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#UN.2C_NATO.2C_and_OSCE_.281998.E2.80.931999.29
http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/172/89/PDF/N9917289.pdf?OpenElement


And I'm right there with you on wanting WWIII, right now.  But what people have to realize is that there are centuries of principles resting on these decisions.  Are we, as the "West" willing to allow hundreds of years of western statecraft to be dismantled by these actions.  People need to step outside of their own rigidly constructed, self interested, paradigms and realize some of these acts are tearing down the foundations of the modern western world.  The more we allow rogue states to annex countries, indiscriminately use WMDs, and commit genocide the more our principles and moral standards shatter. That is a huge threat to the legitimacy and standing of the West in the world.

Only you would even bring the race element into play on a topic like Libya, the ultimate strawman.   You simply cannot dispute the reality that Libya was a NATO/US/Western Intelligence operation with the various entities within that domain fermenting the unrest in that country.   

When the Clinton administration was attacking a sovereign nation, sending in the CIA to train and support entities with clear and indisputable ties to radical Islam and Iran, when Maddie Albright is hugging all over thugs every bit as horrible as Milosevic etc. etc. etc.  When the "Balkanization" then occurred and within a very short time frame the various newly created nations start aligning themselves with NATO, the whole selling point for the illegal operation gets tossed out the window entirely.  It was a sham.

[ednksu]

    Late last year when Ukraine’s now-ousted president Viktor Yanukovych surprisingly canceled plans for Ukrainian integration into the European Union in favor of stronger ties with Russia, the US may have viewed Ukraine as slipping even further out of its reach.

    At that point, with the pieces already in place, the US moved to support the ousting of Yanukovych, as evidenced by the leaked phone conversation between US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland [arch-Neocon Robert Kagan's wife]  and US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt.  When peaceful protests were not effective in unseating Yanukovych, the violence of the ultra-nationalist Svoboda party and Right Sector was embraced, if not supported by the west.

    In today’s Ukraine, the US runs the risk of being affiliated with anti-Semitic neo-Nazis, a prospect it probably feels can be controlled via a friendly western media. But even if the risk is high, the US likely views it as necessary given the geopolitical importance of Ukraine, as Brzezinski mapped out in 1997.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/03/president-obamas-former-foreign-policy-adviser-said-1997-u-s-gain-control-ukraine.html


http://original.antiwar.com/Chris_Ernesto/2014/03/14/brzezinski-mapped-out-the-battle-for-ukraine-in-1997/

That would be great I think to help glue this thing and have the UN glue it and you know, eff the EU,“ she says, in an apparent reference to differences over their policies.






http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/06/us-ukraine-russia-eu-victoria-nuland

awful reporting and damn near a lie in the timeline.  The phone call, which was leaked by the Russians on twitter, came well AFTER the protests were bloody within the last month and half , see the references to Klitschko as a successor. 

And the points about the Right Sector are totally wrong as the party leadership doesn't control what the party has been doing, so much so that they have been pushed out to other further right groups.  Instead the Right Sector is best described as a nationalist group, well short of their neo-fascist roots.  The reason for this is that they used violence after the state attempted to crush the protests with force.  Through their own physical action against the state they actually moved further left by incorporating more moderate groups. 

The points about neo-nazis are just straight away based on stupidity and a totally lack of journalistic responsibility.  I thought I posted Timothy Snyder's piece about this, but anyone who believes this talking point is taking their orders straight from Moscow.  Snyder totally destroys that talking point. 


Back to the Nuland thing, you've once again totally destroyed your credibility by taking her quote out of context.  That was a call to action since the Germans were totally against moving to aide the Ukrainians.  It was an off the cuff response based in frustration.  If you'd heard the comment in the entire segment released you'd know what she meant.

[ednksu]

First off your position on Libya and Syria is the same tired racist talking point that have been recycled for years.  Its sad that your side can't imagine rational actors who aren't white acting in their own self interests.  Just because they are brown doesn't mean they can't rebel against their dictators. 

Second, you really want to bring Yugo into this?  Possibly the best example of intervention working in the modern era? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#UN.2C_NATO.2C_and_OSCE_.281998.E2.80.931999.29
http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/172/89/PDF/N9917289.pdf?OpenElement


And I'm right there with you on wanting WWIII, right now.  But what people have to realize is that there are centuries of principles resting on these decisions.  Are we, as the "West" willing to allow hundreds of years of western statecraft to be dismantled by these actions.  People need to step outside of their own rigidly constructed, self interested, paradigms and realize some of these acts are tearing down the foundations of the modern western world.  The more we allow rogue states to annex countries, indiscriminately use WMDs, and commit genocide the more our principles and moral standards shatter. That is a huge threat to the legitimacy and standing of the West in the world.

Only you would even bring the race element into play on a topic like Libya, the ultimate strawman.   You simply cannot dispute the reality that Libya was a NATO/US/Western Intelligence operation with the various entities within that domain fermenting the unrest in that country.   

When the Clinton administration was attacking a sovereign nation, sending in the CIA to train and support entities with clear and indisputable ties to radical Islam and Iran, when Maddie Albright is hugging all over thugs every bit as horrible as Milosevic etc. etc. etc.  When the "Balkanization" then occurred and within a very short time frame the various newly created nations start aligning themselves with NATO, the whole selling point for the illegal operation gets tossed out the window entirely.  It was a sham.

yeah I'm totally bringing race into the discussion when your neo-con/neo-libertarianism fails to realize that brown people can be rational actors.  yes they can act to overthrow their governments and their actions don't always have to be promoted by someone from the West forcing them to act.  There is well documented history here that those were organically grown movements, not the CIA ops of the 70s and 80s.  I'm stopping there because I do think the US saw an opportunity to support change, but this prison planet racism that only the West can be actors in these events has to be called out. 

[sonofdaxjones]

Context or not, you can hear the desperation in Nuland and the U.S. that things weren't going the way the U.S. wanted.

In terms of the neo nazi sliver of a talking point, I probably should have left that out, because I should have known it would be seized upon by opportunitistic left/right paradigm apologists . . . like you.  In the grand scheme of the situation, it's pretty much utterly immaterial.

[ednksu]

Context or not, you can hear the desperation in Nuland and the U.S. that things weren't going the way the U.S. wanted.

In terms of the neo nazi sliver of a talking point, I probably should have left that out, because I should have known it would be seized upon by opportunitistic left/right paradigm apologists . . . like you.  In the grand scheme of the situation, it's pretty much utterly immaterial.

Yeah that isn't desperation, its frustration, which was totally warranted.  *waits for you to make a Hilary crying crack, women can't lead*

And the neo-nazi talking point shouldn't be left out in this discussion.  Its important to see how Ukraine is being portrayed by the Russians and other people who are too lazy to educate themselves.  Yes Ukraine has some fascist elements, but we should also realize that there is an extremely fluid situation in Ukraine.  Its important to understand to prevent the extreme right coming to power in a nationalist struggle.  But I think you totally glossed over my comments here with your left/right apologist crack, just as you will gloss over this to fit me into your liberal paradigm.

[sonofdaxjones]

First off your position on Libya and Syria is the same tired racist talking point that have been recycled for years.  Its sad that your side can't imagine rational actors who aren't white acting in their own self interests.  Just because they are brown doesn't mean they can't rebel against their dictators. 

Second, you really want to bring Yugo into this?  Possibly the best example of intervention working in the modern era? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#UN.2C_NATO.2C_and_OSCE_.281998.E2.80.931999.29
http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/172/89/PDF/N9917289.pdf?OpenElement


And I'm right there with you on wanting WWIII, right now.  But what people have to realize is that there are centuries of principles resting on these decisions.  Are we, as the "West" willing to allow hundreds of years of western statecraft to be dismantled by these actions.  People need to step outside of their own rigidly constructed, self interested, paradigms and realize some of these acts are tearing down the foundations of the modern western world.  The more we allow rogue states to annex countries, indiscriminately use WMDs, and commit genocide the more our principles and moral standards shatter. That is a huge threat to the legitimacy and standing of the West in the world.

Only you would even bring the race element into play on a topic like Libya, the ultimate strawman.   You simply cannot dispute the reality that Libya was a NATO/US/Western Intelligence operation with the various entities within that domain fermenting the unrest in that country.   

When the Clinton administration was attacking a sovereign nation, sending in the CIA to train and support entities with clear and indisputable ties to radical Islam and Iran, when Maddie Albright is hugging all over thugs every bit as horrible as Milosevic etc. etc. etc.  When the "Balkanization" then occurred and within a very short time frame the various newly created nations start aligning themselves with NATO, the whole selling point for the illegal operation gets tossed out the window entirely.  It was a sham.

yeah I'm totally bringing race into the discussion when your neo-con/neo-libertarianism fails to realize that brown people can be rational actors.  yes they can act to overthrow their governments and their actions don't always have to be promoted by someone from the West forcing them to act.  There is well documented history here that those were organically grown movements, not the CIA ops of the 70s and 80s.  I'm stopping there because I do think the US saw an opportunity to support change, but this prison planet racism that only the West can be actors in these events has to be called out.

But that's a completely immaterial straw man, bridge to nowhere talking point.  (so being against wars of US hegemony makes me a Neo-Con?  Fascinating, how do you even discuss this with someone who invokes that kind of idiocy?).    To say there were "homegrown" entities within Libya wanting to overthrow the MQ regime is the Captain Obvious talking point of the century.   Hey, guess what, there's entities within the United States who want to overthrow the U.S. Gov't (just a comment NSA, so relax).   For you to leisurely dismiss what the West/NATO/US did in Libya as mere opportunism is laughable and deserves no further commentary, just as  your invocation of racism deserves no further commentary. 

[sonofdaxjones]

Context or not, you can hear the desperation in Nuland and the U.S. that things weren't going the way the U.S. wanted.

In terms of the neo nazi sliver of a talking point, I probably should have left that out, because I should have known it would be seized upon by opportunitistic left/right paradigm apologists . . . like you.  In the grand scheme of the situation, it's pretty much utterly immaterial.

Yeah that isn't desperation, its frustration, which was totally warranted.  *waits for you to make a Hilary crying crack, women can't lead*

And the neo-nazi talking point shouldn't be left out in this discussion.  Its important to see how Ukraine is being portrayed by the Russians and other people who are too lazy to educate themselves.  Yes Ukraine has some fascist elements, but we should also realize that there is an extremely fluid situation in Ukraine.  Its important to understand to prevent the extreme right coming to power in a nationalist struggle.  But I think you totally glossed over my comments here with your left/right apologist crack, just as you will gloss over this to fit me into your liberal paradigm.

So now it's sexism?  Your tank is empty, you've got nothing left at this juncture.  Pathetic. 

[ednksu]

Context or not, you can hear the desperation in Nuland and the U.S. that things weren't going the way the U.S. wanted.

In terms of the neo nazi sliver of a talking point, I probably should have left that out, because I should have known it would be seized upon by opportunitistic left/right paradigm apologists . . . like you.  In the grand scheme of the situation, it's pretty much utterly immaterial.

Yeah that isn't desperation, its frustration, which was totally warranted.  *waits for you to make a Hilary crying crack, women can't lead*

And the neo-nazi talking point shouldn't be left out in this discussion.  Its important to see how Ukraine is being portrayed by the Russians and other people who are too lazy to educate themselves.  Yes Ukraine has some fascist elements, but we should also realize that there is an extremely fluid situation in Ukraine.  Its important to understand to prevent the extreme right coming to power in a nationalist struggle.  But I think you totally glossed over my comments here with your left/right apologist crack, just as you will gloss over this to fit me into your liberal paradigm.

So now it's sexism?  Your tank is empty, you've got nothing left at this juncture.  Pathetic.

Yeah that was just a check to see if you had any actual critique of my points or if you were just running off talking points. 
And yeah it is sexist you say the woman is in desperation when the man isn't, even though he sounds just as unnerved.

[ednksu]

First off your position on Libya and Syria is the same tired racist talking point that have been recycled for years.  Its sad that your side can't imagine rational actors who aren't white acting in their own self interests.  Just because they are brown doesn't mean they can't rebel against their dictators. 

Second, you really want to bring Yugo into this?  Possibly the best example of intervention working in the modern era? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#UN.2C_NATO.2C_and_OSCE_.281998.E2.80.931999.29
http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/172/89/PDF/N9917289.pdf?OpenElement


And I'm right there with you on wanting WWIII, right now.  But what people have to realize is that there are centuries of principles resting on these decisions.  Are we, as the "West" willing to allow hundreds of years of western statecraft to be dismantled by these actions.  People need to step outside of their own rigidly constructed, self interested, paradigms and realize some of these acts are tearing down the foundations of the modern western world.  The more we allow rogue states to annex countries, indiscriminately use WMDs, and commit genocide the more our principles and moral standards shatter. That is a huge threat to the legitimacy and standing of the West in the world.

Only you would even bring the race element into play on a topic like Libya, the ultimate strawman.   You simply cannot dispute the reality that Libya was a NATO/US/Western Intelligence operation with the various entities within that domain fermenting the unrest in that country.   

When the Clinton administration was attacking a sovereign nation, sending in the CIA to train and support entities with clear and indisputable ties to radical Islam and Iran, when Maddie Albright is hugging all over thugs every bit as horrible as Milosevic etc. etc. etc.  When the "Balkanization" then occurred and within a very short time frame the various newly created nations start aligning themselves with NATO, the whole selling point for the illegal operation gets tossed out the window entirely.  It was a sham.

yeah I'm totally bringing race into the discussion when your neo-con/neo-libertarianism fails to realize that brown people can be rational actors.  yes they can act to overthrow their governments and their actions don't always have to be promoted by someone from the West forcing them to act.  There is well documented history here that those were organically grown movements, not the CIA ops of the 70s and 80s.  I'm stopping there because I do think the US saw an opportunity to support change, but this prison planet racism that only the West can be actors in these events has to be called out.

But that's a completely immaterial straw man, bridge to nowhere talking point.  (so being against wars of US hegemony makes me a Neo-Con?  Fascinating, how do you even discuss this with someone who invokes that kind of idiocy?).    To say there were "homegrown" entities within Libya wanting to overthrow the MQ regime is the Captain Obvious talking point of the century.   Hey, guess what, there's entities within the United States who want to overthrow the U.S. Gov't (just a comment NSA, so relax).   For you to leisurely dismiss what the West/NATO/US did in Libya as mere opportunism is laughable and deserves no further commentary, just as  your invocation of racism deserves no further commentary.

I didn't leisurely dismiss it, I ended my point there.  The amount of time, resources, and military expenditure clearly shows that it wasn't a mere opportunist action.  It was a calculated risk to jumpstart a home grown rebellion.  There were some dramatic miscalculations and misconceptions, I grant that totally, but this wasn't what you want it to be, a CIA op of the 70s and 80s (once again). 

[bubbles4ksu]

do we hate russia even if it is no longer the communist version of the vatican? i thought that had a lot to do with the last go round?

[bubbles4ksu]

can edn and dax be banned from this thread?

[ednksu]

do we hate russia even if it is no longer the communist version of the vatican? i thought that had a lot to do with the last go round?

This doesn't make sense...are you trying to talk about Solidarity?

[ednksu]

1 dead Ukrainian soldier
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/ukraine-says-conflict-with-russia-entering-military-stage-after-officer-reportedly-shot-in-crimea/story-fni0xs61-1226858598948

[GCJayhawker]

 

[GCJayhawker]

To be clear this was for the battle of words between Dax and EDN, not the dead Ukrainian soldier.  All though, if a Ukrainian was killed by Russian forces, the popcorn may be appropriate.

[EMAWmeister]

 

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it.

[ednksu]

To be clear this was for the battle of words between Dax and EDN, not the dead Ukrainian soldier.  All though, if a Ukrainian was killed by Russian forces, the popcorn may be appropriate.

Unsure if Russian forces or Russian backed militias

and Russia has surprised the world and announced, yes those were indeed Russian soldiers all over the region.

[_33]

What did Putin say to Obama when he demanded that Russian troops leave the Ukraine?

Crimea river

I JUST THOUGHT OF THIS AND MADE IT UP. AWESOME.

[sonofdaxjones]

First off your position on Libya and Syria is the same tired racist talking point that have been recycled for years.  Its sad that your side can't imagine rational actors who aren't white acting in their own self interests.  Just because they are brown doesn't mean they can't rebel against their dictators. 

Second, you really want to bring Yugo into this?  Possibly the best example of intervention working in the modern era? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#UN.2C_NATO.2C_and_OSCE_.281998.E2.80.931999.29
http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/172/89/PDF/N9917289.pdf?OpenElement


And I'm right there with you on wanting WWIII, right now.  But what people have to realize is that there are centuries of principles resting on these decisions.  Are we, as the "West" willing to allow hundreds of years of western statecraft to be dismantled by these actions.  People need to step outside of their own rigidly constructed, self interested, paradigms and realize some of these acts are tearing down the foundations of the modern western world.  The more we allow rogue states to annex countries, indiscriminately use WMDs, and commit genocide the more our principles and moral standards shatter. That is a huge threat to the legitimacy and standing of the West in the world.

Only you would even bring the race element into play on a topic like Libya, the ultimate strawman.   You simply cannot dispute the reality that Libya was a NATO/US/Western Intelligence operation with the various entities within that domain fermenting the unrest in that country.   

When the Clinton administration was attacking a sovereign nation, sending in the CIA to train and support entities with clear and indisputable ties to radical Islam and Iran, when Maddie Albright is hugging all over thugs every bit as horrible as Milosevic etc. etc. etc.  When the "Balkanization" then occurred and within a very short time frame the various newly created nations start aligning themselves with NATO, the whole selling point for the illegal operation gets tossed out the window entirely.  It was a sham.

yeah I'm totally bringing race into the discussion when your neo-con/neo-libertarianism fails to realize that brown people can be rational actors.  yes they can act to overthrow their governments and their actions don't always have to be promoted by someone from the West forcing them to act.  There is well documented history here that those were organically grown movements, not the CIA ops of the 70s and 80s.  I'm stopping there because I do think the US saw an opportunity to support change, but this prison planet racism that only the West can be actors in these events has to be called out.

But that's a completely immaterial straw man, bridge to nowhere talking point.  (so being against wars of US hegemony makes me a Neo-Con?  Fascinating, how do you even discuss this with someone who invokes that kind of idiocy?).    To say there were "homegrown" entities within Libya wanting to overthrow the MQ regime is the Captain Obvious talking point of the century.   Hey, guess what, there's entities within the United States who want to overthrow the U.S. Gov't (just a comment NSA, so relax).   For you to leisurely dismiss what the West/NATO/US did in Libya as mere opportunism is laughable and deserves no further commentary, just as  your invocation of racism deserves no further commentary.

I didn't leisurely dismiss it, I ended my point there.  The amount of time, resources, and military expenditure clearly shows that it wasn't a mere opportunist action.  It was a calculated risk to jumpstart a home grown rebellion.  There were some dramatic miscalculations and misconceptions, I grant that totally, but this wasn't what you want it to be, a CIA op of the 70s and 80s (once again).

No one thought for a second that Libya was an old timey 70's or 80's (or before) CIA operation.   Come on dude.

[ednksu]

First off your position on Libya and Syria is the same tired racist talking point that have been recycled for years.  Its sad that your side can't imagine rational actors who aren't white acting in their own self interests.  Just because they are brown doesn't mean they can't rebel against their dictators. 

Second, you really want to bring Yugo into this?  Possibly the best example of intervention working in the modern era? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War#UN.2C_NATO.2C_and_OSCE_.281998.E2.80.931999.29
http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/172/89/PDF/N9917289.pdf?OpenElement


And I'm right there with you on wanting WWIII, right now.  But what people have to realize is that there are centuries of principles resting on these decisions.  Are we, as the "West" willing to allow hundreds of years of western statecraft to be dismantled by these actions.  People need to step outside of their own rigidly constructed, self interested, paradigms and realize some of these acts are tearing down the foundations of the modern western world.  The more we allow rogue states to annex countries, indiscriminately use WMDs, and commit genocide the more our principles and moral standards shatter. That is a huge threat to the legitimacy and standing of the West in the world.

Only you would even bring the race element into play on a topic like Libya, the ultimate strawman.   You simply cannot dispute the reality that Libya was a NATO/US/Western Intelligence operation with the various entities within that domain fermenting the unrest in that country.   

When the Clinton administration was attacking a sovereign nation, sending in the CIA to train and support entities with clear and indisputable ties to radical Islam and Iran, when Maddie Albright is hugging all over thugs every bit as horrible as Milosevic etc. etc. etc.  When the "Balkanization" then occurred and within a very short time frame the various newly created nations start aligning themselves with NATO, the whole selling point for the illegal operation gets tossed out the window entirely.  It was a sham.

yeah I'm totally bringing race into the discussion when your neo-con/neo-libertarianism fails to realize that brown people can be rational actors.  yes they can act to overthrow their governments and their actions don't always have to be promoted by someone from the West forcing them to act.  There is well documented history here that those were organically grown movements, not the CIA ops of the 70s and 80s.  I'm stopping there because I do think the US saw an opportunity to support change, but this prison planet racism that only the West can be actors in these events has to be called out.

But that's a completely immaterial straw man, bridge to nowhere talking point.  (so being against wars of US hegemony makes me a Neo-Con?  Fascinating, how do you even discuss this with someone who invokes that kind of idiocy?).    To say there were "homegrown" entities within Libya wanting to overthrow the MQ regime is the Captain Obvious talking point of the century.   Hey, guess what, there's entities within the United States who want to overthrow the U.S. Gov't (just a comment NSA, so relax).   For you to leisurely dismiss what the West/NATO/US did in Libya as mere opportunism is laughable and deserves no further commentary, just as  your invocation of racism deserves no further commentary.

I didn't leisurely dismiss it, I ended my point there.  The amount of time, resources, and military expenditure clearly shows that it wasn't a mere opportunist action.  It was a calculated risk to jumpstart a home grown rebellion.  There were some dramatic miscalculations and misconceptions, I grant that totally, but this wasn't what you want it to be, a CIA op of the 70s and 80s (once again).

No one thought for a second that Libya was an old timey 70's or 80's (or before) CIA operation.   Come on dude.

Thats what I thought for a second, hence the note. 

But I back on track the US and Western Europe is on the clock now.  Visa restrictions mean crap when shots are being fired.  I'd love to see the gas lines to gazprom get shut off and see what Putin does.

[sonofdaxjones]

Well, we've been forewarned as to where this is all headed. 

http://youtu.be/NHWjlCaIrQo?t=1m31s

Iodine tablets:  Not just for breakfast

[ednksu]

Well, we've been forewarned as to where this is all headed. 

http://youtu.be/NHWjlCaIrQo?t=1m31s

Iodine tablets:  Not just for breakfast

pffff

[_33]

Did you guys see my joke?  pfffffffffffffffffft.