Higher Ed

[CNS]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/07/us/ncaa-athletes-reading-scores/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

UNC laughs at our low entrance standards.

(CNN) -- Early in her career as a learning specialist, Mary Willingham was in her office when a basketball player at the University of North Carolina walked in looking for help with his classwork.

He couldn't read or write.

"And I kind of panicked. What do you do with that?" she said, recalling the meeting.

And then another came with this request: "If I could teach him to read well enough so he could read about himself in the news, because that was something really important to him," Willingham said.

Soon, she'd meet a student-athlete who couldn't read multisyllabic words. She had to teach him to sound out Wis-con-sin, as kids do in elementary school.

[Rage Against the McKee]

CNN analysis: Some college athletes play like adults, read like 5th-graders

That's bullshit. I could read better than those guys when I was in kindergarten.

[CNS]

When Willingham worked as a learning specialist for athletes from 2003 to 2010, she admits she took part in cheating, signing her name to forms that said she witnessed no NCAA rules violations when in fact she did. But the NCAA, the college sports organizing body, never interviewed her. Instead, it found no rules had been broken at Chapel Hill.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Could you imagine some of these guys trying to learn LHC Bill Snyder's playbook?

[sys]

When Willingham worked as a learning specialist for athletes from 2003 to 2010, she admits she took part in cheating, signing her name to forms that said she witnessed no NCAA rules violations when in fact she did. But the NCAA, the college sports organizing body, never interviewed her. Instead, it found no rules had been broken at Chapel Hill.

they're blaming the ncaa for not assuming this chick was lying her ass off (maybe perjuring herself, dunno)?

[Cartierfor3]

Good thing they have access to an education

[CNS]

What kind of education is a guy who reads at a 3rd grade level going to get in college?  The UNC chick basically said that she would sit down with them and "pull a paper out of them", which I take for her doing the paper for them though leading questions and what not.

Also, the article mentioned instances where classes were made up, never taught, and grades given out to athletes. 

Education? 

Seems more like college athletics are gathering a talented work force, refusing to pay them due to self made rules, and not providing the education in many cases that they lean on and point to when ppl ask them what the athlete is getting out of the situation.  Seems completely set up to basically take advantage of disposable assets to grab as much cash as possible.   

[Trogdor]

Could you imagine some of these guys trying to learn LHC LHC Bill Snyder's playbook?

"Oh my god! Words, they hurt!"

[sys]

Seems more like college athletics are gathering a talented work force, refusing to pay them due to self made rules, and not providing the education in many cases that they lean on and point to when ppl ask them what the athlete is getting out of the situation.  Seems completely set up to basically take advantage of disposable assets to grab as much cash as possible.   

athletes are complicit in the fraud, they are participants, not victims.

[CNS]

Seems more like college athletics are gathering a talented work force, refusing to pay them due to self made rules, and not providing the education in many cases that they lean on and point to when ppl ask them what the athlete is getting out of the situation.  Seems completely set up to basically take advantage of disposable assets to grab as much cash as possible.   

athletes are complicit in the fraud, they are participants, not victims.

Not really concerned about them getting educations.  It's not like that is their focus and these universities are depriving them of that.  If it was a priority to the athletes, they would come to the university with a better educational base.

My post was more directed at the pay vs no pay debate and that the universities claim that athletes are compensated for their roles by being given free educations worth $100k, etc where this article is basically saying that the value of what some of these athletes receive is highly diminished at best. 

It could be a strong additional arguing point in the discussion on paying athletes.  If the schools aren't providing actual honest college educations, then the defenders of the current system will be left standing on room and board which is just ridiculous.

[sys]

the education is worth what it is worth.  whether the athletes understand and appreciate that value and take actions to maximize the value of the educational access they are provided is irrelevant (that participating in athletics makes it difficult and/or impossible to fully maximize the value of that access is a slightly different point; a point that has much more merit).

even just room and board (were the value limited to that, which it is not) is not as ridiculous as you indicate.  athletics is a profession where being the best can be extremely lucrative, but just being fairly good is almost valueless.  the vast majority of college athletes would have few if any other opportunities to be compensated for their athletic ability if college sports did not exist.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Seems more like college athletics are gathering a talented work force, refusing to pay them due to self made rules, and not providing the education in many cases that they lean on and point to when ppl ask them what the athlete is getting out of the situation.  Seems completely set up to basically take advantage of disposable assets to grab as much cash as possible.   

athletes are complicit in the fraud, they are participants, not victims.

Not really concerned about them getting educations.  It's not like that is their focus and these universities are depriving them of that.  If it was a priority to the athletes, they would come to the university with a better educational base.

My post was more directed at the pay vs no pay debate and that the universities claim that athletes are compensated for their roles by being given free educations worth $100k, etc where this article is basically saying that the value of what some of these athletes receive is highly diminished at best. 

It could be a strong additional arguing point in the discussion on paying athletes.  If the schools aren't providing actual honest college educations, then the defenders of the current system will be left standing on room and board which is just ridiculous.

Except that doing what North Carolina is doing in that article is every bit as much against the rules as paying players is.

[CNS]

the education is worth what it is worth.  whether the athletes understand and appreciate that value and take actions to maximize the value of the educational access they are provided is irrelevant (that participating in athletics makes it difficult and/or impossible to fully maximize the value of that access is a slightly different point; a point that has much more merit).

even just room and board (were the value limited to that, which it is not) is not as ridiculous as you indicate.  athletics is a profession where being the best can be extremely lucrative, but just being fairly good is almost valueless.  the vast majority of college athletes would have few if any other opportunities to be compensated for their athletic ability if college sports did not exist.

compare that with basically any other profession and it is ridic.  Working for room and board only is very much so taking advantage of an employee.  As for the value of the ed, there is zero value if you don't participate in it and a person with a 3rd grade reading level simply can't participate.  Also, it is relevant because this is the major talking point of those pushing for biz as usual.  They use the value of the education as proof that the athlete is getting something equally valuable in return. 

Also, it's not like these kids are 9-5'ing it.  They work harder than most ppl with a career and they are rewarded with a college apt to share with a few other kids and enough money to keep them in Chipolte until the next Chipolte check comes in.  If the education holds no value, that is basically indentured servitude.  Under the circumstances presented in that article the only education some are receiving is from the coaching staff and only towards the sport they play.

[CNS]

Seems more like college athletics are gathering a talented work force, refusing to pay them due to self made rules, and not providing the education in many cases that they lean on and point to when ppl ask them what the athlete is getting out of the situation.  Seems completely set up to basically take advantage of disposable assets to grab as much cash as possible.   

athletes are complicit in the fraud, they are participants, not victims.

Not really concerned about them getting educations.  It's not like that is their focus and these universities are depriving them of that.  If it was a priority to the athletes, they would come to the university with a better educational base.

My post was more directed at the pay vs no pay debate and that the universities claim that athletes are compensated for their roles by being given free educations worth $100k, etc where this article is basically saying that the value of what some of these athletes receive is highly diminished at best. 

It could be a strong additional arguing point in the discussion on paying athletes.  If the schools aren't providing actual honest college educations, then the defenders of the current system will be left standing on room and board which is just ridiculous.

Except that doing what North Carolina is doing in that article is every bit as much against the rules as paying players is.

Agreed, but it could inject some realism into the argument.

[Rage Against the McKee]

The schools aren't doing anything to prevent those players from going out and making money by playing a sport somewhere else. They are offering a college scholarship, plus room, board, and stipend, to play a sport. If those players can find a better offer elsewhere, they can go pursue it.

[sys]

compare that with basically any other profession and it is ridic.  Working for room and board only is very much so taking advantage of an employee.  As for the value of the ed, there is zero value if you don't participate in it and a person with a 3rd grade reading level simply can't participate.  Also, it is relevant because this is the major talking point of those pushing for biz as usual.  They use the value of the education as proof that the athlete is getting something equally valuable in return. 

Also, it's not like these kids are 9-5'ing it.  They work harder than most ppl with a career and they are rewarded with a college apt to share with a few other kids and enough money to keep them in Chipolte until the next Chipolte check comes in.  If the education holds no value, that is basically indentured servitude.  Under the circumstances presented in that article the only education some are receiving is from the coaching staff and only towards the sport they play.

it should not be compared to almost any other profession.  it should be compared to other comparable athletic opportunities.  compare to low level minor league baseball players, compare to players in euro developmental programs, compare to marginal professional tennis/golf players, etc.  there simply isn't much demand, and hence little compensation for slightly less than elite athletes, outside of college athletics in the us.

you continue to argue that the education holds no value, which is ridiculous.  there are numerous studies which demonstrate the monetary value of a college education.  if some athletes do not appreciate that value, or squander the opportunity to maximize that value, that in no way decreases the real value of the educational opportunity they were offered.  they could as easily squander a salary.

i agree that a person incapable of participating in a legitimate college education should not be admitted to a university, whether that person is a talented athlete or not.  i think most people agree with that, which is why there are rules in place to prevent it.  when a university and athlete commit deception to circumvent those rules, they are engaging in fraud.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

Seems more like college athletics are gathering a talented work force, refusing to pay them due to self made rules, and not providing the education in many cases that they lean on and point to when ppl ask them what the athlete is getting out of the situation.  Seems completely set up to basically take advantage of disposable assets to grab as much cash as possible.   

athletes are complicit in the fraud, they are participants, not victims.

They are victims in the sense that they were ever allowed to pass beyond the 6th grade without being able to read.

[sonofdaxjones]

This goes on all over, which is why it's laughable to me when all but a small fraction of schools try to play the academic card.

[Trogdor]

Seems more like college athletics are gathering a talented work force, refusing to pay them due to self made rules, and not providing the education in many cases that they lean on and point to when ppl ask them what the athlete is getting out of the situation.  Seems completely set up to basically take advantage of disposable assets to grab as much cash as possible.   

athletes are complicit in the fraud, they are participants, not victims.

There is a mutual understanding between the athletes and the universities. The universities bring the athletes in with the ultimate goal to use them for profit (i.e championships, games, future professional endorsement). This is the same way that universities look at regular students, hoping that students who graduate (who have already invested 100k+), give back to the university as boosters or alumni with thousands to millions of dollars that the university uses to invest in potential profit gain.

The athletes benefit in the fact that they have somewhere to go which will aid in their path of advancing to the next level. Most do not care about their education. They use the university to hone their skills and get looks while they have somewhere to do it for free (or a fraction of the cost).

Now do I think that athletes should be paid, No. They should not. The get the luxury of going through college and exiting debt free with free food and housing and other luxuries. Then some end up making six figures to play a sport.

[Mr Bread]

Clown suits for giants?  Who knew?

[ksupamplemousse]

The schools aren't doing anything to prevent those players from going out and making money by playing a sport somewhere else. They are offering a college scholarship, plus room, board, and stipend, to play a sport. If those players can find a better offer elsewhere, they can go pursue it.

Yep, they can go to Europe and get paid money to play basketball. Nobody is forcing them to play college basketball. If we want to have this discussion, then the talking point should be getting rid of the one-and-done rule so that kids can go straight to the league.

[jmlynch1]

Seems more like college athletics are gathering a talented work force, refusing to pay them due to self made rules, and not providing the education in many cases that they lean on and point to when ppl ask them what the athlete is getting out of the situation.  Seems completely set up to basically take advantage of disposable assets to grab as much cash as possible.   

athletes are complicit in the fraud, they are participants, not victims.

They are victims in the sense that they were ever allowed to pass beyond the 6th grade without being able to read.

yeah, this is my takeaway.

[1863]

Seems more like college athletics are gathering a talented work force, refusing to pay them due to self made rules, and not providing the education in many cases that they lean on and point to when ppl ask them what the athlete is getting out of the situation.  Seems completely set up to basically take advantage of disposable assets to grab as much cash as possible.   

athletes are complicit in the fraud, they are participants, not victims.

They are victims in the sense that they were ever allowed to pass beyond the 6th grade without being able to read.

yeah, this is my takeaway.

Whole thing sounds kinda sad. The primary education system failed them, and it sounds like the college one really did too except they luckily went to a women who helped teach them basic reading and writing skills. Just doesn't seem like how it should work.

[sys]

except they luckily went to a women who helped teach them basic reading and writing skills.

and luckily helped them defraud the system set up to try and ensure (cynically, pretend to ensure) that athletes do participate to some degree in the education system they purport to represent.  indirectly depriving other athletes better able to (and perhaps more interested in) exploiting access to such an education from receiving that access.

it doesn't seem like that's how it should work.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Honestly, if those guys actually learned how to read and write, that probably expanded their career opportunities by a much greater extent than any college does for any normal graduate.