8th

[OregonSmock]

Iona is a good example of a mid major that plays fast.  They've led the NCAA in scoring over the past couple years, IIRC.  If anyone wants evidence of a team slowing down the pace and running a junk defense to pull off an upset, take a look at the KU/UTEP game in the Bahamas last weekend.  UTEP played a triangle and two, and trapped at halfcourt, and it caused KU fits.  KU was unable to really break down the defense and find a rhythm offensively.  The TCU game in Ft. Worth last year is another good example.

I think its fair to say that the defenses used against KU in those games disrupted their offense, but neither were really, really slow paced games possession wise. KU just missed a lot of shots (particularly 3 pointers) in each of those, especially against TCU.

You're trying too hard.  The defenses disrupted KU's offense, which kept us out of rhythm and led to poor shot selection.  Statistics only tell so much of the story. 

What you said there is absolutely true.

I was just pointing out that you said those were examples of teams using slow pace to pull off the upset when it was mainly just good defense, regardless of pace. The pace for both of those games was still in the upper 60s which is about KU's average.

yep. If you want an example of irregular pace leading to an upset, look at KU vs. Davidson in the Sprint Center a couple years ago:

It was Davidson's 2nd fastest pace that season and KU's 3rd fastest.

That's kind of the exception to the rule, though.  That KU team played at a pretty moderate pace (by Bill Self standards) and didn't have a whole lot of depth.  Our first two players off the bench were Connor Teahan and Kevin Young.  KenPom's adjusted offense for KU fell from ~116 in '11 to ~111 in '12.  KU relied heavily on our starters and a very good defense (especially inside).  Davidson won 25 games that season, played in the NCAA tournament, and only had four games all year where they failed to score at least 70 points.  The weakness for KU that year was our perimeter defense, and certain teams were able to exploit that with their perimeter shooting (Davidson being one example). 

[michigancat]

Iona is a good example of a mid major that plays fast.  They've led the NCAA in scoring over the past couple years, IIRC.  If anyone wants evidence of a team slowing down the pace and running a junk defense to pull off an upset, take a look at the KU/UTEP game in the Bahamas last weekend.  UTEP played a triangle and two, and trapped at halfcourt, and it caused KU fits.  KU was unable to really break down the defense and find a rhythm offensively.  The TCU game in Ft. Worth last year is another good example.

I think its fair to say that the defenses used against KU in those games disrupted their offense, but neither were really, really slow paced games possession wise. KU just missed a lot of shots (particularly 3 pointers) in each of those, especially against TCU.

You're trying too hard.  The defenses disrupted KU's offense, which kept us out of rhythm and led to poor shot selection.  Statistics only tell so much of the story. 

What you said there is absolutely true.

I was just pointing out that you said those were examples of teams using slow pace to pull off the upset when it was mainly just good defense, regardless of pace. The pace for both of those games was still in the upper 60s which is about KU's average.

yep. If you want an example of irregular pace leading to an upset, look at KU vs. Davidson in the Sprint Center a couple years ago:

It was Davidson's 2nd fastest pace that season and KU's 3rd fastest.

That's kind of the exception to the rule, though.  That KU team played at a pretty moderate pace (by Bill Self standards) and didn't have a whole lot of depth.  Our first two players off the bench were Connor Teahan and Kevin Young.  KenPom's adjusted offense for KU fell from ~116 in '11 to ~111 in '12.  KU relied heavily on our starters and a very good defense (especially inside).  Davidson won 25 games that season, played in the NCAA tournament, and only had four games all year where they failed to score at least 70 points. 

whereas your idiotic TCU example was within a possession of KU's normal pace.

[OregonSmock]

Iona is a good example of a mid major that plays fast.  They've led the NCAA in scoring over the past couple years, IIRC.  If anyone wants evidence of a team slowing down the pace and running a junk defense to pull off an upset, take a look at the KU/UTEP game in the Bahamas last weekend.  UTEP played a triangle and two, and trapped at halfcourt, and it caused KU fits.  KU was unable to really break down the defense and find a rhythm offensively.  The TCU game in Ft. Worth last year is another good example.

I think its fair to say that the defenses used against KU in those games disrupted their offense, but neither were really, really slow paced games possession wise. KU just missed a lot of shots (particularly 3 pointers) in each of those, especially against TCU.

You're trying too hard.  The defenses disrupted KU's offense, which kept us out of rhythm and led to poor shot selection.  Statistics only tell so much of the story. 

What you said there is absolutely true.

I was just pointing out that you said those were examples of teams using slow pace to pull off the upset when it was mainly just good defense, regardless of pace. The pace for both of those games was still in the upper 60s which is about KU's average.

yep. If you want an example of irregular pace leading to an upset, look at KU vs. Davidson in the Sprint Center a couple years ago:

It was Davidson's 2nd fastest pace that season and KU's 3rd fastest.

That's kind of the exception to the rule, though.  That KU team played at a pretty moderate pace (by Bill Self standards) and didn't have a whole lot of depth.  Our first two players off the bench were Connor Teahan and Kevin Young.  KenPom's adjusted offense for KU fell from ~116 in '11 to ~111 in '12.  KU relied heavily on our starters and a very good defense (especially inside).  Davidson won 25 games that season, played in the NCAA tournament, and only had four games all year where they failed to score at least 70 points. 

whereas your idiotic TCU example was within a possession of KU's normal pace.

TCU absolutely slowed down the pace and took the air out of the ball in the 2nd half.  KU had to come back from a double digit deficit, so they sped up the pace of the game towards the end and tried to maximize possessions.  Again, you rely too heavily on statistics.  Did you even watch that game? 


 

[michigancat]

I don't think you understand what's being discussed, beems, and it doesn't make you look very smart.

[OregonSmock]

I don't have KenPom premium, so I'm just looking at his adjO numbers for KU.  I understand what "pace" means.  KU's average pace was skewed in that TCU game by the fact that we had to maximize possessions and lengthen the game at the end (because we were losing).  Perhaps you're the one who doesn't understand how statistics can be misleading. 


 

[kso_FAN]

I don't have KenPom premium, so I'm just looking at his adjO numbers for KU.  I understand what "pace" means.  KU's average pace was skewed in that TCU game by the fact that we had to maximize possessions and lengthen the game at the end (because we were losing).  Perhaps you're the one who doesn't understand how statistics can be misleading. 


 

That's a fair point. 1st half pace was 30 poss, 2nd half pace was 36 poss. What an ugly game, TCU didn't even play that well. Bizarre.

[pissclams]

I don't think you understand what's being discussed, beems, and it doesn't make you look very smart.

i'm going to coach at tcu and do exactly what they did against KU and go undefeated and win the NC.  hey rusty, need a DREAM JOB??

[pissclams]

we will do home at homes w/ all norcal schools even san fran son u digg?   

[michigancat]

I don't have KenPom premium, so I'm just looking at his adjO numbers for KU.  I understand what "pace" means.  KU's average pace was skewed in that TCU game by the fact that we had to maximize possessions and lengthen the game at the end (because we were losing).  Perhaps you're the one who doesn't understand how statistics can be misleading. 


 

That's a fair point. 1st half pace was 30 poss, 2nd half pace was 36 poss. What an ugly game, TCU didn't even play that well. Bizarre.

Lots of games have quite a few more second half possessions

I don't have KenPom premium, so I'm just looking at his adjO numbers for KU.  I understand what "pace" means.  KU's average pace was skewed in that TCU game by the fact that we had to maximize possessions and lengthen the game at the end (because we were losing).  Perhaps you're the one who doesn't understand how statistics can be misleading. 


 

That's a fair point. 1st half pace was 30 poss, 2nd half pace was 36 poss. What an ugly game, TCU didn't even play that well. Bizarre.

A 2nd half with several more possessions isn't an outlier, especially when teams start fouling to make comebacks. Average pace takes into account games like this

[kso_FAN]

A 2nd half with several more possessions isn't an outlier, especially when teams start fouling to make comebacks. Average pace takes into account games like this

Also a fair point.

I remember watching the game, and the pace did increase down the stretch due to a number of factors and I checked the numbers to verify. I think its reasonable to say both of the points have some validity, not just because of FENCE.

I don't think Beems is wrong just because he's Beems.

[michigancat]

A 2nd half with several more possessions isn't an outlier, especially when teams start fouling to make comebacks. Average pace takes into account games like this

Also a fair point.

I remember watching the game, and the pace did increase down the stretch due to a number of factors and I checked the numbers to verify. I think its reasonable to say both of the points have some validity, not just because of FENCE.

I don't think Beems is wrong just because he's Beems.

Pace is also tricky to point as a factor, because you don't have complete control over the length of your offensive possessions, and you have even less over your offensive possessions, both of which contribute to "pace". LENGTH of possession on offense and defense would be a better indicator of desired speed.

My point was that the TCU game was not a statistical outlier for either team's pace, so it's foolish to point to it as a factor. That doesn't just "have some validity", it's a fact.

[Stevesie60]

I'd like to see how many more possessions the 2nd half has than the 1st half, on average. Taking shots early in the shot clock when you're behind, and then fouling the other team when it's close has to increase it a significant amount.

[kso_FAN]

A 2nd half with several more possessions isn't an outlier, especially when teams start fouling to make comebacks. Average pace takes into account games like this

Also a fair point.

I remember watching the game, and the pace did increase down the stretch due to a number of factors and I checked the numbers to verify. I think its reasonable to say both of the points have some validity, not just because of FENCE.

I don't think Beems is wrong just because he's Beems.

Pace is also tricky to point as a factor, because you don't have complete control over the length of your offensive possessions, and you have even less over your offensive possessions, both of which contribute to "pace". LENGTH of possession on offense and defense would be a better indicator of desired speed.

My point was that the TCU game was not a statistical outlier for either team's pace, so it's foolish to point to it as a factor. That doesn't just "have some validity", it's a fact.

Your point above fits my memory of the game and TCU making a concerted effort to use as much shot clock as possible and shoot late in the possession. That's why I made that point, but you are correct in that was more of an impression than how the game worked out. If anything the game was FASTER than TCU wanted to play, since in conference games only they paced at only 62 possessions per game and the game finished with 67.

[kso_FAN]

I'd like to see how many more possessions the 2nd half has than the 1st half, on average. Taking shots early in the shot clock when you're behind, and then fouling the other team when it's close has to increase it a significant amount.

I have an ADV stats chart with half by half stats of K-State's Big 12 games in 2011-12. Pace per half was 32.95 poss for the 1st and 33.02 poss for the 2nd half that season in Big 12 games.

[Stevesie60]

Holy hell, that's not very different at all!

[ksupamplemousse]

Did we slow it down very much against KU in 2006? I remember it being a low scoring game, but that may just be because both teams shot the ball poorly. I think if you're going to try to slow down a team in hopes of winning, doing it against a young team is probably a better bet. Freshman are usually not that adept at controlling the pace of a game. Although KU's squad this year is probably much more athletic than in 2006.

[Skipper44]

Did we slow it down very much against KU in 2006? I remember it being a low scoring game, but that may just be because both teams shot the ball poorly. I think if you're going to try to slow down a team in hopes of winning, doing it against a young team is probably a better bet. Freshman are usually not that adept at controlling the pace of a game. Although KU's squad this year is probably much more athletic than in 2006.

we played a 2-3 zone most of the second half and KU made only 3 shots from the field in the last 12+ minutes of the game

[Trim]

[kso_FAN]

Did we slow it down very much against KU in 2006? I remember it being a low scoring game, but that may just be because both teams shot the ball poorly. I think if you're going to try to slow down a team in hopes of winning, doing it against a young team is probably a better bet. Freshman are usually not that adept at controlling the pace of a game. Although KU's squad this year is probably much more athletic than in 2006.

Game had 66 possessions, that season we averaged just under 65 poss per game.

[Kat Kid]

Likely to break:
Streak of 7 years of winning conference record.
Streak of 7 years with a win over top 25 opponent.

Possibilities:
10 years without an overall losing record.
Million year home winning record streak.

[420seriouscat69]

Egg on face, kk.

[Havs]

Did we slow it down very much against KU in 2006? I remember it being a low scoring game, but that may just be because both teams shot the ball poorly. I think if you're going to try to slow down a team in hopes of winning, doing it against a young team is probably a better bet. Freshman are usually not that adept at controlling the pace of a game. Although KU's squad this year is probably much more athletic than in 2006.

Game had 66 possessions, that season we averaged just under 65 poss per game.

Slowing it down usually kills Iowa State. 

[BostonPancake]

Likely to break:
Streak of 7 years of winning conference record.
Streak of 7 years with a win over top 25 opponent.

Possibilities:
10 years without an overall losing record.
Million year home winning record streak.

Crisis averted.  Million year home winning record lives on!!   

[Kat Kid]

Likely to break:
Streak of 7 years of winning conference record.
Streak of 7 years with a win over top 25 opponent.

Possibilities:
10 years without an overall losing record.
Million year home winning record streak.

 

[Powercat Posse]

Pretty crazy to think how down in the dumps we all were 6 weeks ago.   

3 wins vs ranked teams, 4 wins over current top 35 rpi teams, with a win on Saturday we will be off to a 4-1 start.