8th

[CNS]

I think if Foster had a coach that was good at toughening up players, that he would be good at getting boards like Rod did.  Will see if that develops or not.

Marcus/Rodney comparisons don't make a lot of sense to me. Very different physical characteristics and skill sets.

Marcus' game is closer to Jake's than Rodney's IMO 

Marcus has more length and leaping ability than Jake it seems.  He slashes well and seems like he will be a decent perimeter shooter.  If he has the right mentality, he could be good at streaking in for boards.  He obvsly isn't as tall as Rod, but he could play a decent wing imo.  Not saying it will happen, but I think he has the basic ability to get there if pushed to it.

Jake's first year he played point and was mostly a distributor who could penetrate and pass well. 

[pissclams]

ABIII is a cheese dick and he's also oscar's bad cop whereas chet is the player's buddy.  oscar really has no role in this season's law & order: special victim's unit mhk

[Mr Bread]

What if I blew your mind and told you that this is going to happen a bunch of times this year?

As for the DREB.  Yeah the zone hurts it, but it already sucks as is so why not try to find a strength and work toward that?  We are long at the guard spots, but undersized and short on depth inside.  It could create a potentially tough zone.  As I said, something will have to give on D between:

1) lack of rebounding
2) lack of guard quickness
3) lack of size/D inside

Obviously there are some moving parts here. 

Frankball:  Step up the Pressure

If we try to pressure the ball and deny the post we have no guard quickness and absolutely no one to protect the rim.

Adv:  + TO, +DREB
Disad:  -DEFF, -DFTR

Bruceketball:  Man up, no double, switch or go under screens, no/slow help

Points/foul troubs in the paint, wide open threes for teams that can string together 3 passes in a row or have a guy who can pull up off a screen.  Yet to see a wing that has emerged to replace McGruder's rebs.

Adv:  +FG% D (hopefully), -Pace, +DREB
Disad: -TO, -DFTR

Zones:

Hold down foul troubs, force teams in to contested jump shots, slow down game in conjunction w/ 2/3rds court trap and hope to force a TO or two with different junky looks.

ADV: -Pace, +DEFF, +FTR, +FG % D (hopefully)
Disad:  -DREB, -TO, if we turn ball over at current rate on O not worth bothering with

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm saying oscar won't do it.  He's been coaching for decades and he's never made zone a major part of his defense.  He'll go to it in the heat of the moment if he's getting bent over in game, but not for the season as a paradigm shift.  Completely un-oscar.  He doesn't know it well and therefore he doesn't trust it and won't rely on it.  The dude sticks with what he knows.  It's not the principles that are at fault, it's the players' failure to adhere to them.  Then you add in the hit to DREB and he'll definitely be all "Welp, can't do that even if we wanted to." 

That aside, I really think a oscar zone would probably be crap.  He doesn't believe in it and he really has very little experience actually running one.  I don't think it would pay off in execution even if he wanted to do it.  It's a pipe dream. 

[Kat Kid]

Lowery have any experience with it?  I mean Frank got that pinwheel idea from Bad Brad.

[CNS]

I have always heard coaches say that a zone is something you either commit fully to or don't do at all because to do it right, it takes that much time to get it down.  Otherwise it is a clusterfuck that will implode. 

[Kat Kid]

I have always heard coaches say that a zone is something you either commit fully to or don't do at all because to do it right, it takes that much time to get it down.  Otherwise it is a clusterfuck that will implode.

I have always heard coaches say lots of things that make their jobs sound very difficult and probably impossible for anyone who has not done it to understand.

[Trim]

I don't see Hagop as anything other than the Armenian Sulic unless he proves me wrong.

https://twitter.com/TrimGoEMAW/status/402297541653299200

[Tobias]

these make me sad 

Should make you mad.

these make me mad 

[kso_FAN]

KK: The only point of disagreement I'd have with #bruceketball defense is that at its best it is designed to force TOs at a pretty high clip with ball pressure, especially with Lowry (that was THE feature of his best defenses).

FYI:

I'm not really convinced that slowing the pace leads to that many more upsets. There is probably some advantage there, but if a team that normally plays fast tries to slow down to pull an upset, I feel that the problems with playing a different style offset whatever advantage fewer possessions might have.

[Dr Rick Daris]

KK: The only point of disagreement I'd have with #bruceketball defense is that at its best it is designed to force TOs at a pretty high clip with ball pressure, especially with Lowry (that was THE feature of his best defenses).

FYI:

I'm not really convinced that slowing the pace leads to that many more upsets. There is probably some advantage there, but if a team that normally plays fast tries to slow down to pull an upset, I feel that the problems with playing a different style offset whatever advantage fewer possessions might have.

but what bad teams play at a really fast pace and would then need to "slow it down in attempt to pull off the upset". i dunno, but it seems like most bad teams somewhat slow it down 24/7 and wouldn't need to adjust much against the good ones. sucky fast playing teams? does such a thing exist?

[kso_FAN]

but what bad teams play at a really fast pace and would then need to "slow it down in attempt to pull off the upset". i dunno, but it seems like most bad teams somewhat slow it down 24/7 and wouldn't need to adjust much against the good ones. sucky fast playing teams? does such a thing exist?

There are usually one or two in each AQ league and there are all kinds of low major teams that play fast and are terrible. Like Central Arkansas.

From last year: Texas Tech last year played fairly fast, but was bad. Purdue in the Big 10. DePaul and St Johns in the Big East. Oregon State from the Pac 12. Etc.

[Dr Rick Daris]

but what bad teams play at a really fast pace and would then need to "slow it down in attempt to pull off the upset". i dunno, but it seems like most bad teams somewhat slow it down 24/7 and wouldn't need to adjust much against the good ones. sucky fast playing teams? does such a thing exist?

There are usually one or two in each AQ league and there are all kinds of low major teams that play fast and are terrible. Like Central Arkansas.

From last year: Texas Tech last year played fairly fast, but was bad. Purdue in the Big 10. DePaul and St Johns in the Big East. Oregon State from the Pac 12. Etc.

matt painter's purdue team was only two games below .500 in the big10 last year though and missed the tournament for the first time in like ten years. i'd hardly call them "terrible" or "sucky". also, st johns was also just two games under .500 in the big east, so that's not that bad either.

i guess i just think that if you have a collection of bad playing basketball players, then on average they are already going to play slower because of their suckiness. that's it. i agree that if a team that usually plays super fast tries to super slow it down then that is not necessarily a good thing.

[Kat Kid]

KK: The only point of disagreement I'd have with #bruceketball defense is that at its best it is designed to force TOs at a pretty high clip with ball pressure, especially with Lowry (that was THE feature of his best defenses).

FYI:

I'm not really convinced that slowing the pace leads to that many more upsets. There is probably some advantage there, but if a team that normally plays fast tries to slow down to pull an upset, I feel that the problems with playing a different style offset whatever advantage fewer possessions might have.

Yeah, I defer to others on Lowry/oscar's history of defensive systems.  I just know that the difference between Frankball and Bruceketball on-ball pressure, hedging on screens, help expected/given is night and day.  Is that all poor execution?  I doubt it.

[kso_FAN]

Yeah, I defer to others on Lowry/oscar's history of defensive systems.  I just know that the difference between Frankball and Bruceketball on-ball pressure, hedging on screens, help expected/given is night and day.  Is that all poor execution?  I doubt it.

I think the intent of #bruceketball is ball pressure without getting beat as much AND without the backdoors/open lay-ups that #frankball sometimes gave up. #brucketball pressure is more predicated by creating TOs with steals because of ball pressure combined with "more sound" position with off the ball defense. #frankball pressure was predicated by overwhelming ball handlers, and while that occasionally led to lay-ups/backdoors, more often than not it also led to teams throwing the ball out of bounds, etc.

I think both defensive systems rely on a rim protector, but #frankball left that guy on an island more than #bruceketball does.

That would be my explanation of the differences.

[OregonSmock]

KK: The only point of disagreement I'd have with #bruceketball defense is that at its best it is designed to force TOs at a pretty high clip with ball pressure, especially with Lowry (that was THE feature of his best defenses).

FYI:

I'm not really convinced that slowing the pace leads to that many more upsets. There is probably some advantage there, but if a team that normally plays fast tries to slow down to pull an upset, I feel that the problems with playing a different style offset whatever advantage fewer possessions might have.

but what bad teams play at a really fast pace and would then need to "slow it down in attempt to pull off the upset". i dunno, but it seems like most bad teams somewhat slow it down 24/7 and wouldn't need to adjust much against the good ones. sucky fast playing teams? does such a thing exist?

Iona is a good example of a mid major that plays fast.  They've led the NCAA in scoring over the past couple years, IIRC.  If anyone wants evidence of a team slowing down the pace and running a junk defense to pull off an upset, take a look at the KU/UTEP game in the Bahamas last weekend.  UTEP played a triangle and two, and trapped at halfcourt, and it caused KU fits.  KU was unable to really break down the defense and find a rhythm offensively.  The TCU game in Ft. Worth last year is another good example.

[Tobias]

why do you keep calling it a junk defense?

[OregonSmock]

why do you keep calling it a junk defense?

Because that's what it's called. 


 

[Tobias]

why do you keep calling it a junk defense?

Because that's what it's called. 


 

was not familiar with the term

[kso_FAN]

Iona is a good example of a mid major that plays fast.  They've led the NCAA in scoring over the past couple years, IIRC.  If anyone wants evidence of a team slowing down the pace and running a junk defense to pull off an upset, take a look at the KU/UTEP game in the Bahamas last weekend.  UTEP played a triangle and two, and trapped at halfcourt, and it caused KU fits.  KU was unable to really break down the defense and find a rhythm offensively.  The TCU game in Ft. Worth last year is another good example.

I think its fair to say that the defenses used against KU in those games disrupted their offense, but neither were really, really slow paced games possession wise. KU just missed a lot of shots (particularly 3 pointers) in each of those, especially against TCU.

[pissclams]

Iona is a good example of a mid major that plays fast.  They've led the NCAA in scoring over the past couple years, IIRC.  If anyone wants evidence of a team slowing down the pace and running a junk defense to pull off an upset, take a look at the KU/UTEP game in the Bahamas last weekend.  UTEP played a triangle and two, and trapped at halfcourt, and it caused KU fits.  KU was unable to really break down the defense and find a rhythm offensively.  The TCU game in Ft. Worth last year is another good example.

I think its fair to say that the defenses used against KU in those games disrupted their offense, but neither were really, really slow paced games possession wise. KU just missed a lot of shots (particularly 3 pointers) in each of those, especially against TCU.

ya that TCU loss had very little to do w/ TCU (other than they happened to be on the court at the time of the game)

iona is a good example tho

[OregonSmock]

Iona is a good example of a mid major that plays fast.  They've led the NCAA in scoring over the past couple years, IIRC.  If anyone wants evidence of a team slowing down the pace and running a junk defense to pull off an upset, take a look at the KU/UTEP game in the Bahamas last weekend.  UTEP played a triangle and two, and trapped at halfcourt, and it caused KU fits.  KU was unable to really break down the defense and find a rhythm offensively.  The TCU game in Ft. Worth last year is another good example.

I think its fair to say that the defenses used against KU in those games disrupted their offense, but neither were really, really slow paced games possession wise. KU just missed a lot of shots (particularly 3 pointers) in each of those, especially against TCU.

You're trying too hard.  The defenses disrupted KU's offense, which kept us out of rhythm and led to poor shot selection.  Statistics only tell so much of the story. 

[The Whale]

Yeah, I defer to others on Lowry/oscar's history of defensive systems.  I just know that the difference between Frankball and Bruceketball on-ball pressure, hedging on screens, help expected/given is night and day.  Is that all poor execution?  I doubt it.

I think the intent of #bruceketball is ball pressure without getting beat as much AND without the backdoors/open lay-ups that #frankball sometimes gave up. #brucketball pressure is more predicated by creating TOs with steals because of ball pressure combined with "more sound" position with off the ball defense. #frankball pressure was predicated by overwhelming ball handlers, and while that occasionally led to lay-ups/backdoors, more often than not it also led to teams throwing the ball out of bounds, etc.
I think both defensive systems rely on a rim protector, but #frankball left that guy on an island more than #bruceketball does.

That would be my explanation of the differences.

It seems like #frankball led to more fast break dunks than #bruceketball does despite #bruceketball focusing more on steals.  Is this actually the case, selective memory, or just difference in the quality of the teams?  Or does #bruceketball look more often to slow it down and run the offense off of steals?

[kso_FAN]

Iona is a good example of a mid major that plays fast.  They've led the NCAA in scoring over the past couple years, IIRC.  If anyone wants evidence of a team slowing down the pace and running a junk defense to pull off an upset, take a look at the KU/UTEP game in the Bahamas last weekend.  UTEP played a triangle and two, and trapped at halfcourt, and it caused KU fits.  KU was unable to really break down the defense and find a rhythm offensively.  The TCU game in Ft. Worth last year is another good example.

I think its fair to say that the defenses used against KU in those games disrupted their offense, but neither were really, really slow paced games possession wise. KU just missed a lot of shots (particularly 3 pointers) in each of those, especially against TCU.

You're trying too hard.  The defenses disrupted KU's offense, which kept us out of rhythm and led to poor shot selection.  Statistics only tell so much of the story. 

What you said there is absolutely true.

I was just pointing out that you said those were examples of teams using slow pace to pull off the upset when it was mainly just good defense, regardless of pace. The pace for both of those games was still in the upper 60s which is about KU's average.

[kso_FAN]

It seems like #frankball led to more fast break dunks than #bruceketball does despite #bruceketball focusing more on steals.  Is this actually the case, selective memory, or just difference in the quality of the teams?  Or does #bruceketball look more often to slow it down and run the offense off of steals?
[/quote

Good question, I'd have to go back and compare fast break points. I think part of that was a factor of pace and Frank's teams looked to push the ball more than oscar's, so took more fast break opportunities. Also, my impression is that most of the steals from #bruceketball aren't occurring in the back court.

[michigancat]

Iona is a good example of a mid major that plays fast.  They've led the NCAA in scoring over the past couple years, IIRC.  If anyone wants evidence of a team slowing down the pace and running a junk defense to pull off an upset, take a look at the KU/UTEP game in the Bahamas last weekend.  UTEP played a triangle and two, and trapped at halfcourt, and it caused KU fits.  KU was unable to really break down the defense and find a rhythm offensively.  The TCU game in Ft. Worth last year is another good example.

I think its fair to say that the defenses used against KU in those games disrupted their offense, but neither were really, really slow paced games possession wise. KU just missed a lot of shots (particularly 3 pointers) in each of those, especially against TCU.

You're trying too hard.  The defenses disrupted KU's offense, which kept us out of rhythm and led to poor shot selection.  Statistics only tell so much of the story. 

What you said there is absolutely true.

I was just pointing out that you said those were examples of teams using slow pace to pull off the upset when it was mainly just good defense, regardless of pace. The pace for both of those games was still in the upper 60s which is about KU's average.

yep. If you want an example of irregular pace leading to an upset, look at KU vs. Davidson in the Sprint Center a couple years ago:

It was Davidson's 2nd fastest pace that season and KU's 3rd fastest.