Kansas City things

[420seriouscat69]

Is anyone going to buy one of those houses for a $1?

[Emo EMAW]

How much of KCMO's general fund is supported by the 1% income tax?

Approximately 40%...50% of that is paid by non kcmo residents.

And this is why KCMO can get eff'd (IMO).

[Phil Titola]

How much of KCMO's general fund is supported by the 1% income tax?

Approximately 40%...50% of that is paid by non kcmo residents.

And this is why KCMO can get eff'd (IMO).

Okay. Not a very regional way to think of it but it's your O so go with it.

[pissclams]

I love the Pissclams anger over this thing - given the fact he's not paying for it.

did KCMO sign a free maintenance contract?

i'm not angry, i'm frustrated with this city government that continually does stupid crap against the wishes of the people who live here.  as i've mentioned numerous times in this thread- every time (at least 8 times), when the issue of streetcar/light rail was put up for vote in the general election, the voters said no by a resounding margin.   ignoring that vote, sly went the tdd route and put the vote up to about 500 registered voters (the majority of which are renters who don't have longterm stake in the game and who aren't responsible for underwriting his stupid idea) and disallowed the business owners who are funding the thing from voting. 

[TownieCat]

i might be off base here but everything ive read about PnL and the SC say theyre way off from revenue projections and are taking much longer to pay off debt than anticipated.

i enjoy having both there like 3 times a year, just like i probably will the street car. doesnt mean i dont think theyre a huge waste of money.

Were the original projections based on having an NHL or NBA tenant within 8 years of opening? If so, I'm sure they are both very behind.

[The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep]

KCMO schools probably could use some money.

[The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep]

i might be off base here but everything ive read about PnL and the SC say theyre way off from revenue projections and are taking much longer to pay off debt than anticipated.

i enjoy having both there like 3 times a year, just like i probably will the street car. doesnt mean i dont think theyre a huge waste of money.

Were the original projections based on having an NHL or NBA tenant within 8 years of opening? If so, I'm sure they are both very behind.

i dont know but does it matter? still not what was promised to tax payers.

[Phil Titola]

I love the Pissclams anger over this thing - given the fact he's not paying for it.

did KCMO sign a free maintenance contract?

i'm not angry, i'm frustrated with this city government that continually does stupid crap against the wishes of the people who live here.  as i've mentioned numerous times in this thread- every time (at least 8 times), when the issue of streetcar/light rail was put up for vote in the general election, the voters said no by a resounding margin.   ignoring that vote, sly went the tdd route and put the vote up to about 500 registered voters (the majority of which are renters who don't have longterm stake in the game and who aren't responsible for underwriting his stupid idea) and disallowed the business owners who are funding the thing from voting.

Maintenance is built into the ongoing assessment by the streetcar authority.

Are you equally upset with the TDD on the plaza that nobody voted on? As you know businesses never vote on property taxes. Sprint campus doesn't get to vote on OPKS property taxes they pay....

[pissclams]

questions about p&l?
http://www.kansascity.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/yael-t-abouhalkah/article320542/The-high-costs-of-the-Power--Light-District-for-KC-taxpayers.html

The high costs of the Power & Light District for KC taxpayers

The one overriding lesson from the entire Power & Light District project is this: The city in the future must do a better job estimating the true costs of projects to taxpayers, never again exposing them to this kind of financial miscalculation.

On July 12, 2007, Kansas City officials issued some pretty precise documents promising that the Power & Light District would pay for itself.

Summed up, it would cost $489,632,115 in debt over the next 25 years or so to acquire downtown property, install new water and sewer lines, build parking garages, and subsidize construction of restaurants and retail stores for the Cordish Co.

But consultants who had looked at the deal also said the entertainment district would create $506,437,961 in new revenues such as sales, earnings and property taxes.

So how did those rosy predictions work out?

Not well. In fact, they weren’t even remotely close. Yet many people still don’t realize how costly this project will be for Kansas City taxpayers for years to come.

In round figures, recent debt payments have been close to $19 million a year. However, the district’s total tax revenues are averaging only $5.5 million annually.

There’s a larger point to be made here about how risky it is to promote city-backed projects that put the full faith and credit of local taxpayers on the line. Fortunately, City Hall has backed away from doing large deals like this one for the last few years. Still, at least six projects are draining the general fund of money each year because they haven’t been as successful as once hoped.

The largest by far is the Power & Light District, and it deserves more attention given that fact. First, some math.

• Bonds issued for the project won’t be paid off until 2032 — 19 years from now.

• The taxpayer subsidy to make debt payments this year is projected to be its highest so far: $14.3 million.

• Multiply 19 years times $14.3 million and that’s — whoa — $272 million that could be transferred from the general fund to pay for the Power & Light bonds. That’s $272 million unavailable for roads, parks, police, fire and other essential services.

Supporters of the Power & Light District make a few key points.

The first is dead-on. Building the entertainment area in conjunction with the new Sprint Center — which is fully financed with hotel and car rental fees, not taxpayer dollars — has been the key to reviving downtown. That’s a huge plus in its favor.

The second contention is not fully accurate.

Cordish Co. and city officials point out that the bonds issued for the Power & Light District also built public infrastructure such as the garages and the modern water/sewer lines. That’s true.

But then comes the argument that, if you take that money for public stuff out of the equation, the Power & Light District retail complex comes close to covering its costs. That’s not true.

At least half the bond revenues support the subsidy given to Cordish for constructing the retail stores and restaurants, acquisition costs for the property they are built upon, the Midland theater makeover and the condos Cordish has pledged to build. Plus, the “public” garages are greatly used by Power & Light customers. Add that cost to the mix, and about two-thirds of the bonds go toward the entertainment district.

Notice: $5.5 million of available revenues a year created by the district is nowhere close to covering two-thirds or even half of the bond payments, which are almost $20 million annually.

Finally, city officials and Power & Light executives often have talked about the better days ahead, when the district eventually would ramp up revenues to better cover debt expenses.

That hasn’t worked out yet as hoped, either. The city budget shows the annual total of revenues from the district the last four years has been $5.6 million, $4.5 million, $5.5 million (estimated) and $5.4 million (projected this budget year).

The one overriding lesson from the entire Power & Light District project is this: The city in the future must do a better job estimating the true costs of projects to taxpayers, never again exposing them to this kind of financial miscalculation.

this one is interesting too-

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2015/05/04/8995/kcs-successful-arena-district-shows-even-successful-arena-districts-can-be-huge-taxpayer-money-sucks/

[pissclams]

I love the Pissclams anger over this thing - given the fact he's not paying for it.

did KCMO sign a free maintenance contract?

i'm not angry, i'm frustrated with this city government that continually does stupid crap against the wishes of the people who live here.  as i've mentioned numerous times in this thread- every time (at least 8 times), when the issue of streetcar/light rail was put up for vote in the general election, the voters said no by a resounding margin.   ignoring that vote, sly went the tdd route and put the vote up to about 500 registered voters (the majority of which are renters who don't have longterm stake in the game and who aren't responsible for underwriting his stupid idea) and disallowed the business owners who are funding the thing from voting.

Maintenance is built into the ongoing assessment by the streetcar authority.

Are you equally upset with the TDD on the plaza that nobody voted on? As you know businesses never vote on property taxes. Sprint campus doesn't get to vote on OPKS property taxes they pay....

LOL sprint wrote that contract w/ op

[Phil Titola]

i might be off base here but everything ive read about PnL and the SC say theyre way off from revenue projections and are taking much longer to pay off debt than anticipated.

i enjoy having both there like 3 times a year, just like i probably will the street car. doesnt mean i dont think theyre a huge waste of money.

Were the original projections based on having an NHL or NBA tenant within 8 years of opening? If so, I'm sure they are both very behind.

The city makes more directly from the arena without a tenant.

[Emo EMAW]

How much of KCMO's general fund is supported by the 1% income tax?

Approximately 40%...50% of that is paid by non kcmo residents.

And this is why KCMO can get eff'd (IMO).

Okay. Not a very regional way to think of it but it's your O so go with it.

I could say the same thing about KCMO govt.

[TownieCat]

i might be off base here but everything ive read about PnL and the SC say theyre way off from revenue projections and are taking much longer to pay off debt than anticipated.

i enjoy having both there like 3 times a year, just like i probably will the street car. doesnt mean i dont think theyre a huge waste of money.

Were the original projections based on having an NHL or NBA tenant within 8 years of opening? If so, I'm sure they are both very behind.

The city makes more directly from the arena without a tenant.

How so? Wouldn't it be better to have those 41 events on the calendar every year? That's 41 more reasons for 18,000 people to be in P&L too.

[Phil Titola]

i might be off base here but everything ive read about PnL and the SC say theyre way off from revenue projections and are taking much longer to pay off debt than anticipated.

i enjoy having both there like 3 times a year, just like i probably will the street car. doesnt mean i dont think theyre a huge waste of money.

Were the original projections based on having an NHL or NBA tenant within 8 years of opening? If so, I'm sure they are both very behind.

The city makes more directly from the arena without a tenant.

How so? Wouldn't it be better to have those 41 events on the calendar every year? That's 41 more reasons for 18,000 people to be in P&L too.

Arena stays just as full with other events that they don't have to share revenues as they would with a tenant... Same with p&l but I'd agree with you they would see more revenues from beer drinking sports fans than say a circus.

[Dub]

Streetcar funding breakdown
37M in federal transportation funding... I mean this could be used for other transportation projects in kc or around the country
Remaining 70 million comes from property and sales tax within the TDD... And a fee on surface parking lots. Not general city finds that could be used for other things.

The federal funding they are applying for this project I believe can be used for rail only.  It can't be used for bus or other transportation.

I think that's a dumb stipulation, but if that's the case, then I can at least begin to understand how KC's decision makes sense.

except that the streetcar isn't "rail" which dub hasn't figured out yet

The theme of “Respect the Rail. Be Smart. Be Safe. Be Ready” encourages pedestrians, bicyclists, and motorists to be alert as we introduce the streetcar into the fabric of our downtown environment. In line with the KC Streetcar Brand...

   Must be identity crisis.

[Belvis Noland]

makes sense to discuss P&L and SC separately. 

I don't have time to cull the internet for the million articles explaining the financial success of the SC.  suffice it to say, this project has been a winner for KC. 

P&L, on the other hand, has not been the money maker it was projected to be, but I also don't even know where to begin measuring the economic impact P&L has had on the City.  For starters, SC is not near as successful with P&L.  BigXII basketball tourney wouldn't be here every year, but for P&L.  the residential boom wouldn't have occurred without P&L (movie theatre, grocery store, etc.).  there are just so many offshoot projects in and around the downtown CBD that are directly and indirectly attributable to P&L, that's it's near impossible to measure the economic impact of P&L.   



 
   

[pissclams]

makes sense to discuss P&L and SC separately. 

I don't have time to cull the internet for the million articles explaining the financial success of the SC.  suffice it to say, this project has been a winner for KC. 

P&L, on the other hand, has not been the money maker it was projected to be, but I also don't even know where to begin measuring the economic impact P&L has had on the City.  For starters, SC is not near as successful with P&L.  BigXII basketball tourney wouldn't be here every year, but for P&L.  the residential boom wouldn't have occurred without P&L (movie theatre, grocery store, etc.).  there are just so many offshoot projects in and around the downtown CBD that are directly and indirectly attributable to P&L, that's it's near impossible to measure the economic impact of P&L.   



 
   

sprint center in 2013 was the 8th busiest arena in the us and netted $1.4M for the city before you subtract the $14m loss at p&l
we spent $225m on building it.  so, only $223.6m left to recoup.  2013 was the first year sc turned a profit iirc. 

[TownieCat]

i might be off base here but everything ive read about PnL and the SC say theyre way off from revenue projections and are taking much longer to pay off debt than anticipated.

i enjoy having both there like 3 times a year, just like i probably will the street car. doesnt mean i dont think theyre a huge waste of money.

Were the original projections based on having an NHL or NBA tenant within 8 years of opening? If so, I'm sure they are both very behind.

The city makes more directly from the arena without a tenant.

How so? Wouldn't it be better to have those 41 events on the calendar every year? That's 41 more reasons for 18,000 people to be in P&L too.

Arena stays just as full with other events that they don't have to share revenues as they would with a tenant... Same with p&l but I'd agree with you they would see more revenues from beer drinking sports fans than say a circus.

Agreed. Marvel Live and Sesame Street are bringing in a much different customer than a basketball or hockey team would. That would have a bigger impact on P&L than SC.

That said, adding a tenant would not eliminate the ability for SC to still host those types of events. The Thunder had 6 home games in February and their arena still hosted 6 special events/concerts.

[pissclams]

Streetcar funding breakdown
37M in federal transportation funding... I mean this could be used for other transportation projects in kc or around the country
Remaining 70 million comes from property and sales tax within the TDD... And a fee on surface parking lots. Not general city finds that could be used for other things.

The federal funding they are applying for this project I believe can be used for rail only.  It can't be used for bus or other transportation.

I think that's a dumb stipulation, but if that's the case, then I can at least begin to understand how KC's decision makes sense.

except that the streetcar isn't "rail" which dub hasn't figured out yet

The theme of “Respect the Rail. Be Smart. Be Safe. Be Ready” encourages pedestrians, bicyclists, and motorists to be alert as we introduce the streetcar into the fabric of our downtown environment. In line with the KC Streetcar Brand...

   Must be identity crisis.

must be, because a streetcar isn't light rail, not that i would expect anyone involved with the project to realize that.  the more confused they can get people like yourself, the better off their agenda is.

[star seed 7]

lol

[Dub]

Streetcar funding breakdown
37M in federal transportation funding... I mean this could be used for other transportation projects in kc or around the country
Remaining 70 million comes from property and sales tax within the TDD... And a fee on surface parking lots. Not general city finds that could be used for other things.

The federal funding they are applying for this project I believe can be used for rail only.  It can't be used for bus or other transportation.

I think that's a dumb stipulation, but if that's the case, then I can at least begin to understand how KC's decision makes sense.

except that the streetcar isn't "rail" which dub hasn't figured out yet

The theme of “Respect the Rail. Be Smart. Be Safe. Be Ready” encourages pedestrians, bicyclists, and motorists to be alert as we introduce the streetcar into the fabric of our downtown environment. In line with the KC Streetcar Brand...

   Must be identity crisis.

must be, because a streetcar isn't light rail, not that i would expect anyone involved with the project to realize that.  the more confused they can get people like yourself, the better off their agenda is.

I never said it was light rail.  The city applied for the 20 mil TIGER grant under the rail/transit budget.  Not road/highway or any other of the TIGER grant subsections (which have been approved for KC in the past) which is why they can't just "Use it for something else!" posters.

[Phil Titola]

The arena has less flexibility to host events passing through though as the sports team schedule is locked in.

As of 2014 sprint center has paid the city $10M  since 2008...some years as high as 1.8M...this doesn't includes sales tax etc off of events.

[Phil Titola]

Clams... Define light rail and how it differs from streetcar. I'll listen off the air. Thanks.

[Tobias]

no real opinion about your guys' streetcar thing, but hearty lols about the fact that a) wacky has not moved to the suburbs yet and b) dlew's weird "acknowledge the fact that i ride the bus" complex

[TownieCat]

makes sense to discuss P&L and SC separately. 

I don't have time to cull the internet for the million articles explaining the financial success of the SC.  suffice it to say, this project has been a winner for KC. 

P&L, on the other hand, has not been the money maker it was projected to be, but I also don't even know where to begin measuring the economic impact P&L has had on the City.  For starters, SC is not near as successful with P&L.  BigXII basketball tourney wouldn't be here every year, but for P&L.  the residential boom wouldn't have occurred without P&L (movie theatre, grocery store, etc.).  there are just so many offshoot projects in and around the downtown CBD that are directly and indirectly attributable to P&L, that's it's near impossible to measure the economic impact of P&L.   



 
   

sprint center in 2013 was the 8th busiest arena in the us and netted $1.4M for the city before you subtract the $14m loss at p&l
we spent $225m on building it.  so, only $223.6m left to recoup.  2013 was the first year sc turned a profit iirc.

*8th busiest arena in the US for concerts/special events. That ranking system did not account for NBA & NHL games.