Author Topic: Kansas City things  (Read 1006679 times)

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Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3875 on: February 18, 2016, 12:33:58 PM »
I think the major hang up right now is the cost for a rail system that goes like 2 blocks.

What is that cost?  for you specifically?
I have no clue. Whatever the taxes are.

1 cent sales tax downtown...additionally If you owned your condo would be about $200 to 300 per year in property tax... If you rent your rent will go up in part to cover that expense from your landlord.
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Offline Phil Titola

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3876 on: February 18, 2016, 12:35:03 PM »
I don't understand what the main anti-rail reasoning is... 

Is it cost?
Is it something about homeless people?
Is it simply because you wouldn't use it?

What's the main hangup here?
My only hang up is that I think it makes very little sense from a transportation perspective.  I looked at blogs like Totola suggested, and I couldn't find anything beyond "perception" as reasons a streetcar makes more sense than busses.

It's a foot in the door approach to a rail system, which is more convenient than a bus system.  Denver has now low speed/high speed rail, Mall Ride (Basically our version of streetcar) and a complex bus system that travels every block it seems and all are highly used.
In what way, exactly?  Aside from it being free.

It will help development down there and then the light rail hub will be placed along that line in the future.  Just like other cities have done.
bolstering development makes it more "convenient" than busses?   :confused: :confused:

From a density perspective sure. If it focuses development it is more convenient for users at a stop to be in easy distance to multiple things... I mean kind of a stretch but anybody who frequents the crossroads now can attest to, it's a bit shotgun pattern when going from place to place.

Offline DQ12

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3877 on: February 18, 2016, 12:35:46 PM »
Streetcar funding breakdown
37M in federal transportation funding... I mean this could be used for other transportation projects in kc or around the country
Remaining 70 million comes from property and sales tax within the TDD... And a fee on surface parking lots. Not general city finds that could be used for other things.

The federal funding they are applying for this project I believe can be used for rail only.  It can't be used for bus or other transportation.
I think that's a dumb stipulation, but if that's the case, then I can at least begin to understand how KC's decision makes sense.


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Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3878 on: February 18, 2016, 12:36:07 PM »
I think the major hang up right now is the cost for a rail system that goes like 2 blocks.

What is that cost?  for you specifically?
I have no clue. Whatever the taxes are.

so your major hang up for this project is the cost - of which you are completely clueless?
I'll be honest, I don't follow that stuff too much, but Phil just answered that question for us and I'd rather have that $ in my pocket. I walk everywhere downtown anyways. Ms. Wacky and I do this with our friends to exercise and to try different places on the weekend. I could see it being of value in the winter, but not the spring through fall.

Offline Belvis Noland

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3879 on: February 18, 2016, 12:37:59 PM »
http://media.kshb.com/pdf/Streetcar%20Impact%20Report.pdf?_ga=1.234208094.1378000160.1455820225

"34 individuals representing 46 projects in the Transportation Development District (TDD) responded to the Kansas City Streetcar District Questionnaire. The Questionnaire accounted for over $750 Million in total private investment.  Respondents linked over $609 million in private investment to the planned streetcar line as either a positive or major positive influence in their location decision. Note that responses were not received for several developments and the survey as implemented has not captured the full extent of economic activity in the TDD. The questionnaire results do indicate that directly contacting the business community is a promising method for assessing the impact of public investment on private investment decisions."

Offline Dub

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3880 on: February 18, 2016, 12:39:27 PM »
I don't understand what the main anti-rail reasoning is... 

Is it cost?
Is it something about homeless people?
Is it simply because you wouldn't use it?

What's the main hangup here?
My only hang up is that I think it makes very little sense from a transportation perspective.  I looked at blogs like Totola suggested, and I couldn't find anything beyond "perception" as reasons a streetcar makes more sense than busses.

It's a foot in the door approach to a rail system, which is more convenient than a bus system.  Denver has now low speed/high speed rail, Mall Ride (Basically our version of streetcar) and a complex bus system that travels every block it seems and all are highly used.
In what way, exactly?  Aside from it being free.

It will help development down there and then the light rail hub will be placed along that line in the future.  Just like other cities have done.
bolstering development makes it more "convenient" than busses?   :confused: :confused:

From an article...

Streetcars have greater capacity than buses.

Streetcars can be more affordable than buses over the long term.

Streetcar tracks reassure riders they’re on the right route.

Streetcars stand out.

Streetcars are more comfortable to ride than buses.

Streetcars are economic development magnets.

Streetcars are quieter and cleaner than buses.

Streetcars are sometimes faster than buses.

Most streetcars have at least 3 doors, and many models have 4 or more. That means passengers at stations can load and unload faster, meaning streetcars can spend more time actually moving, and less time dwelling at stations waiting for passengers. Thus, when streetcars are not held up by other traffic, they’re faster than buses.

Streetcars attract more riders than buses.

For all these reasons, people who would never consider riding a bus will ride a streetcar. Operational details trump all else, but when every other detail is equal, rail attracts more riders.
Of course, buses are useful tools too, and are the right choice in many (in fact most) situations. Buses must be a major part of every city’s transit network, including both local and rapid bus routes. But buses are demonstrably different than streetcars. They have different characteristics, accomplish different goals, and are more appropriate in different places.

Bus advantages:

Buses are usually cheaper.

Buses can put more service in more places.

Buses are more flexible.

Buses can skip ahead.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3881 on: February 18, 2016, 12:40:23 PM »
I think the major hang up right now is the cost for a rail system that goes like 2 blocks.

What is that cost?  for you specifically?
I have no clue. Whatever the taxes are.

so your major hang up for this project is the cost - of which you are completely clueless?
I'll be honest, I don't follow that stuff too much, but Phil just answered that question for us and I'd rather have that $ in my pocket. I walk everywhere downtown anyways. Ms. Wacky and I do this with our friends to exercise and to try different places on the weekend. I could see it being of value in the winter, but not the spring through fall.

Wacky... I actually agree with you here somewhat. I walk practically everywhere and many times ask myself "can I see me using the streetcar here instead". Mostly it's a yes in cold, or if I'm coming from deep southern crossroads and know it's time for me to be home... Or walking back with a watermelon from city market.... Or the lack of time I spend at crown center that I think I will go to more (halls rocks).

The fact is though many people aren't as able bodied and able to walk like that.... Go hang out in the lobby of the downtown Marriott and listen to the bellman tell people how to get somewhere on foot...

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3882 on: February 18, 2016, 12:42:06 PM »
Yeah, that's a good point.

Offline Dub

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3883 on: February 18, 2016, 12:43:43 PM »
You underestimate how awesome it is to have a highly developed area along the line where you can jump around with ease.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3884 on: February 18, 2016, 12:48:05 PM »
I don't understand what the main anti-rail reasoning is... 

Is it cost?
Is it something about homeless people?
Is it simply because you wouldn't use it?

What's the main hangup here?
My only hang up is that I think it makes very little sense from a transportation perspective.  I looked at blogs like Totola suggested, and I couldn't find anything beyond "perception" as reasons a streetcar makes more sense than busses.

It's a foot in the door approach to a rail system, which is more convenient than a bus system.  Denver has now low speed/high speed rail, Mall Ride (Basically our version of streetcar) and a complex bus system that travels every block it seems and all are highly used.
In what way, exactly?  Aside from it being free.

It will help development down there and then the light rail hub will be placed along that line in the future.  Just like other cities have done.
bolstering development makes it more "convenient" than busses?   :confused: :confused:

From an article...

Streetcars have greater capacity than buses.

Streetcars can be more affordable than buses over the long term.

Streetcar tracks reassure riders they’re on the right route.

Streetcars stand out.

Streetcars are more comfortable to ride than buses.

Streetcars are economic development magnets.

Streetcars are quieter and cleaner than buses.

Streetcars are sometimes faster than buses.

Most streetcars have at least 3 doors, and many models have 4 or more. That means passengers at stations can load and unload faster, meaning streetcars can spend more time actually moving, and less time dwelling at stations waiting for passengers. Thus, when streetcars are not held up by other traffic, they’re faster than buses.

Streetcars attract more riders than buses.

For all these reasons, people who would never consider riding a bus will ride a streetcar. Operational details trump all else, but when every other detail is equal, rail attracts more riders.
Of course, buses are useful tools too, and are the right choice in many (in fact most) situations. Buses must be a major part of every city’s transit network, including both local and rapid bus routes. But buses are demonstrably different than streetcars. They have different characteristics, accomplish different goals, and are more appropriate in different places.

Bus advantages:

Buses are usually cheaper.

Buses can put more service in more places.

Buses are more flexible.

Buses can skip ahead.
Couldn't all of those apply to a fancy articulated electric brt bus a with a dedicated/isolated lane or something? Maybe design a new bus just for kc that addresses all those problems and is more appropriate for kc's needs? Do something new and lead rather than worry about playing catchup with "every modern city"?

Offline Cire

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3885 on: February 18, 2016, 12:49:21 PM »
I wish there was a train/light rail along I 35 from Olathe to River Market.

Offline Dub

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3886 on: February 18, 2016, 12:53:51 PM »
I don't understand what the main anti-rail reasoning is... 

Is it cost?
Is it something about homeless people?
Is it simply because you wouldn't use it?

What's the main hangup here?
My only hang up is that I think it makes very little sense from a transportation perspective.  I looked at blogs like Totola suggested, and I couldn't find anything beyond "perception" as reasons a streetcar makes more sense than busses.

It's a foot in the door approach to a rail system, which is more convenient than a bus system.  Denver has now low speed/high speed rail, Mall Ride (Basically our version of streetcar) and a complex bus system that travels every block it seems and all are highly used.
In what way, exactly?  Aside from it being free.

It will help development down there and then the light rail hub will be placed along that line in the future.  Just like other cities have done.
bolstering development makes it more "convenient" than busses?   :confused: :confused:

From an article...

Streetcars have greater capacity than buses.

Streetcars can be more affordable than buses over the long term.

Streetcar tracks reassure riders they’re on the right route.

Streetcars stand out.

Streetcars are more comfortable to ride than buses.

Streetcars are economic development magnets.

Streetcars are quieter and cleaner than buses.

Streetcars are sometimes faster than buses.

Most streetcars have at least 3 doors, and many models have 4 or more. That means passengers at stations can load and unload faster, meaning streetcars can spend more time actually moving, and less time dwelling at stations waiting for passengers. Thus, when streetcars are not held up by other traffic, they’re faster than buses.

Streetcars attract more riders than buses.

For all these reasons, people who would never consider riding a bus will ride a streetcar. Operational details trump all else, but when every other detail is equal, rail attracts more riders.
Of course, buses are useful tools too, and are the right choice in many (in fact most) situations. Buses must be a major part of every city’s transit network, including both local and rapid bus routes. But buses are demonstrably different than streetcars. They have different characteristics, accomplish different goals, and are more appropriate in different places.

Bus advantages:

Buses are usually cheaper.

Buses can put more service in more places.

Buses are more flexible.

Buses can skip ahead.
Couldn't all of those apply to a fancy articulated electric brt bus a with a dedicated/isolated lane or something? Maybe design a new bus just for kc that addresses all those problems and is more appropriate for kc's needs? Do something new and lead rather than worry about playing catchup with "every modern city"?

It can and is not new and lead.  Denver has the MallRide (since the 80s) which is a designated bus line with it's own lane and are semi-electric. 

And what's the difference between a streetcar on a fixed line and a artculated electric bus with a dedicated lane?  It's the exact same thing except you'd have to pull from the general bus system funding instead of being able to apply for federal rail funding that is separate.

Offline DQ12

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3887 on: February 18, 2016, 12:57:15 PM »
And what's the difference between a streetcar on a fixed line and a artculated electric bus with a dedicated lane?  It's the exact same thing except you'd have to pull from the general bus system funding instead of being able to apply for federal rail funding that is separate.
A bus with a dedicated lane wouldn't have to sit in traffic.  From my understanding, the streetcar line is going to be mixed with traffic.

Also, busses can go around obstacles in the road (deliveries, taxi/uber drop-offs, etc.).


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Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3888 on: February 18, 2016, 12:59:31 PM »
If this thing ends up going all the way to Waldo, i'll be happy with it.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3889 on: February 18, 2016, 12:59:56 PM »
It can and is not new and lead.  Denver has the MallRide (since the 80s) which is a designated bus line with it's own lane and are semi-electric. 

I'm saying take it even further and closer to a streetcar line than this:



And the federal rail funding that was (I'm assuming) expertly lobbied in is a good point.

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3890 on: February 18, 2016, 01:04:07 PM »
And the federal rail funding that was (I'm assuming) expertly lobbied in is a good point.
Agreed.  Though I think funding for "clean" busses should have been included in the grant as well, but thems the breaks I suppose.


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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3891 on: February 18, 2016, 01:05:05 PM »
Streetcars will be coordinated with the stoplights
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline Dub

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3892 on: February 18, 2016, 01:09:08 PM »
It can and is not new and lead.  Denver has the MallRide (since the 80s) which is a designated bus line with it's own lane and are semi-electric. 

I'm saying take it even further and closer to a streetcar line than this:



And the federal rail funding that was (I'm assuming) expertly lobbied in is a good point.

What's the difference between that, a streetcar, or what you are thinking?

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3893 on: February 18, 2016, 01:13:35 PM »
So streetcar opposition is upset with spending money on an alternate form of public transportation?  And they are aware that they are currently spending over three times as much to pay Clark Hunt's taxes?

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Offline Phil Titola

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3894 on: February 18, 2016, 01:14:31 PM »
I have no idea where I got this so take it for what it's worth but a true brt system (exclusive lanes, etc)  can cost equal per mile as streetcar... I'll try and hunt down the source.

Edit... Correction what I read was it costs much more than people realize... One close to true Brt in Cleveland cost 200M for 7 miles for example.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 01:32:20 PM by Phil Titola »

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3895 on: February 18, 2016, 01:19:21 PM »
I wish there was a train/light rail along I 35 from Olathe to River Market.

Contact your leaders and tell them you want that. Streetcar was built to handle this addition.

Offline Dub

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3896 on: February 18, 2016, 01:24:05 PM »
I have no idea where I got this so take it for what it's worth but a true brt system (exclusive lanes, etc)  can cost equal per mile as streetcar... I'll try and hunt down the source.

Stakeholders also mentioned several factors that could lead to different amounts and types of economic development in BRT corridors compared to rail transit corridors. For instance, the greater prestige and permanence associated with rail transit may lead to more development and investment in rail transit corridors than in BRT corridors. Transit agency and other local officials also noted that BRT station areas might experience less investment and development than rail station areas because transit agencies may not own large amounts of land around BRT stations on which to build or support transit-oriented developments.43 Los Angeles city officials told us that one of the primary economic development benefits of light rail is that surplus property around the stations can be developed. Kansas City ATA officials told us that the agency owns only a few properties along Troost Avenue, which limits its ability to incentivize economic development in and around the BRT corridor. One real estate expert we spoke with noted that BRT may be better at supporting small- scale retail and residential developments, affordable housing developments, and medical facilities than rail transit, since these types of developments are often priced out of rail station-area markets. (p38-39)

Offline Dub

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3897 on: February 18, 2016, 01:25:11 PM »
Quote
Even though a streetcar has significantly lower capital costs than a subway system, it is still a larger investment than a BRT system, sometimes costing twice as much. For example, Arlington’s Columbia Pike streetcar’s capital costs are around $51M/mile while Lansing’s Michigan/Grand River BRT is around $24M/mile (based on estimates found on their websites). However, streetcar systems bring with them benefits that BRT systems cannot leverage. Streetcars carry more passengers, more quickly, and they attract more “choice riders” and tourists, people who typically don’t feel comfortable riding a bus. Also, streetcars signal to the private sector that that corridor is important to the community; the predictability of transit service can bring increased economic development, thereby increasing local tax revenue, and garnering various community benefits. An commensurate increase in density can create places that enable people to drive less and walk, bike and ride transit more often.

Offline Dub

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3898 on: February 18, 2016, 01:29:56 PM »
I wish there was a train/light rail along I 35 from Olathe to River Market.

Contact your leaders and tell them you want that. Streetcar was built to handle this addition.

Which is why I said the streetcar is a foot in the door approach to eventually expanding it out like that.  It'll prove itself eventually with development among other benefits and investors will push further expansion and calm the fears of south KC.

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Re: Kansas City things
« Reply #3899 on: February 18, 2016, 01:57:41 PM »
Streetcar funding breakdown
37M in federal transportation funding... I mean this could be used for other transportation projects in kc or around the country
Remaining 70 million comes from property and sales tax within the TDD... And a fee on surface parking lots. Not general city finds that could be used for other things.

The federal funding they are applying for this project I believe can be used for rail only.  It can't be used for bus or other transportation.
I think that's a dumb stipulation, but if that's the case, then I can at least begin to understand how KC's decision makes sense.

except that the streetcar isn't "rail" which dub hasn't figured out yet



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