Author Topic: Does God Exist?  (Read 33414 times)

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Offline sys

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #275 on: April 03, 2013, 09:56:35 AM »
Everyone is defending and attacking a traditional Christian omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent god. There're a lot of other options.


no one cares about your half-stupid, powerless and traditionless gods, steve dave.  they aren't interested in us, and we're not interested in them.
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Offline HeinBallz

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Does God Exist?
« Reply #276 on: April 03, 2013, 09:56:58 AM »
since this is now a fun muffin Q&A, i've always wondered why jesus had to die "for our sins".  if god is all powerful, can't he just be like "bros, you guys are cleaned of sin now" and skip killing his son that is also himself?

eagerly awaiting the answer, it's something i've been stuck on for a while.

Sin is like an insurmountable debt that must be paid.  Jesus did not commit any sin, therefore He is eligible to bear our sin in our place.

Sin like any other debt must be paid i.e. punished, otherwise God would not be just. If he just handed out forgiveness and everyone was clean, without the penalty being paid- justice would not be carried out. In the old testament, the system of atoning for sin is that sin would be transferred into an animal (goat or lamb). And then it would be sacrificed. but this process had to be done continuously. The priest would have to atone for the sins of the people in this way over and over.
 
Jesus, the 'Lamb' of God, was the ultimate sacrifice for sin.  He absorbed sin, into himself and laid his life down as the perfect atoning sacrifice. because he is God, this sacrifice was good enough to be perfect and absorb the punishment for sin, fully, finally and forever.  And then in Jesus's resurrection the victory over sin was/is completed.

Not trolling - serious question.  Do you feel obligated to convert someone or preach to or anything like that if a person, such as myself, doesn't believe in hell or sin, but still sees value in the bible from a historical perspective.  And really only sees "sin" as something that really doesn't bring fulfillment to your life - therefore it's a waste of time. 

I mean, I would imagine in your eyes, I'm guilty of the sin of not worshipping and maybe occasionally lustful or prideful - but for the most part, my moral compass would not interfere with anything or anyone within society including yourself. 

Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #277 on: April 03, 2013, 10:12:24 AM »
Does anyone want to answer my question on how God can allow bad to happen if there is no objective worldwide morality?

Offline GoodForAnother

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #278 on: April 03, 2013, 10:18:29 AM »
if there is a god, he really hates kansas state fans
emaw

Offline steve dave

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #279 on: April 03, 2013, 10:19:40 AM »
Does anyone want to answer my question on how God can allow bad to happen if there is no objective worldwide morality?

why does god have to be benevolent?

Online chum1

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #280 on: April 03, 2013, 10:20:03 AM »
I'm not going to side with fun muffin on this one, but I will say that it appears to me that atheists are quick to dismiss worldwide objective morals (at least Richard Dawkins was) yet also say God lets bad things happen all the time.

This?  If it's someome like Dawkins, they're probably just full of crap.

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #281 on: April 03, 2013, 10:22:58 AM »
Does anyone want to answer my question on how God can allow bad to happen if there is no objective worldwide morality?

why does god have to be benevolent?

I'm not taking a stance either way. I'm just pointing out two conflicting statements that atheists seem to consistently make.

Offline 8manpick

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Re: Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #282 on: April 03, 2013, 10:30:06 AM »
Does anyone want to answer my question on how God can allow bad to happen if there is no objective worldwide morality?

There are some things that are objectively bad as deemed by any society, regardless of any religion or God, but you already know that.
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Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #283 on: April 03, 2013, 10:31:18 AM »
So you're saying it's human nature to have morals?

Offline GCJayhawker

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #284 on: April 03, 2013, 10:40:47 AM »
I remember during my confirmation I asked my pastor, and really anyone I could find, how we could have free will to choose things if God already knew what we would do.  The answer I got was that it works because God exists in the past, present and future simultaneously. This allows God to know what we are going to choose because God exists in the the future, but also gives us free will because God simultaneously is in the present.  Essentially God does not perceive time the same way humans do and is not restricted by time.

I :dunno: if that really makes sense or actually works, but for some reason that explanation given to the 7th grade me as stuck with me.

Offline EllRobersonisInnocent

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #285 on: April 03, 2013, 10:47:31 AM »
I remember during my confirmation I asked my pastor, and really anyone I could find, how we could have free will to choose things if God already knew what we would do.  The answer I got was that it works because God exists in the past, present and future simultaneously. This allows God to know what we are going to choose because God exists in the the future, but also gives us free will because God simultaneously is in the present.  Essentially God does not perceive time the same way humans do and is not restricted by time.

I :dunno: if that really makes sense or actually works, but for some reason that explanation given to the 7th grade me as stuck with me.

 :lol:

Answers like this irritate me, they make absolutely no sense and is just another cop out

Offline HeinBallz

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Does God Exist?
« Reply #286 on: April 03, 2013, 10:51:30 AM »
So you're saying it's human nature to have morals?

It's within all nature - it's the natural balance of things.  There will be times of immorality within society, but like a free market; these are self correcting.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline felix rex

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #287 on: April 03, 2013, 10:54:27 AM »
Does anyone want to answer my question on how God can allow bad to happen if there is no objective worldwide morality?

google "problem of evil"
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Offline HeinBallz

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Does God Exist?
« Reply #288 on: April 03, 2013, 11:00:03 AM »
I think it's interesting what people perceive as bad or evil - especially by those that believe in an afterlife.  Why is death so bad?
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #289 on: April 03, 2013, 11:01:21 AM »
Does anyone want to answer my question on how God can allow bad to happen if there is no objective worldwide morality?

google "problem of evil"

I think "secular ethics" would be more beneficial, but okay.

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #290 on: April 03, 2013, 11:02:12 AM »
I think it's interesting what people perceive as bad or evil - especially by those that believe in an afterlife.  Why is death so bad?

Totally agree.

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #291 on: April 03, 2013, 11:04:20 AM »
Fun muffin, my intent was not to attack you last night, fwiw. I'm happy for you that you can feel some security and comfort in your beliefs. I personally think they are silly, but I'm just some guy on the internet.

Agreed.  I think he just needs better argument links.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #292 on: April 03, 2013, 11:07:36 AM »
So you're saying it's human nature to have morals?

I think most morals could be explained as ways the species tries to advance.

Offline HeinBallz

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Does God Exist?
« Reply #293 on: April 03, 2013, 11:10:01 AM »
So you're saying it's human nature to have morals?

It's within all nature - it's the natural balance of things.  There will be times of immorality within society, but like a free market; these are self correcting.

I should clarified, I believe they're self balancing without the external manipulator of some authoritative figure threatening violence or punishment.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #294 on: April 03, 2013, 11:10:47 AM »
So you're saying it's human nature to have morals?

I think most morals could be explained as ways the species tries to advance.

I've read some people trying to make a case for that. They were pretty bad explanations. Do you have anything you've read you could link or care to explain this stance any further?

Offline HeinBallz

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Does God Exist?
« Reply #295 on: April 03, 2013, 11:12:01 AM »
So you're saying it's human nature to have morals?

I think most morals could be explained as ways the species tries to advance.

I think rusty and I are on the same page here.  He's just better at summarizing my long convoluted thoughts into a succinct single sentence.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline HeinBallz

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Does God Exist?
« Reply #296 on: April 03, 2013, 11:15:16 AM »
So you're saying it's human nature to have morals?

I think most morals could be explained as ways the species tries to advance.

I've read some people trying to make a case for that. They were pretty bad explanations. Do you have anything you've read you could link or care to explain this stance any further?

Homosexuality.  Considered immoral by most religions. In nature however, sometimes essential. Some amphibians physically change gender in times of low population and will engage in same sex relationships in times of high populations.


... Almost as if it were by intelligent design.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 11:18:32 AM by HeinBallz »
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline 8manpick

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Re: Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #297 on: April 03, 2013, 11:18:05 AM »
So you're saying it's human nature to have morals?

Yes, but of course, since I don't think there is a god, I would also argue that the Christian set of morals were some human's nature. I think at this point moral reasoning has been developed over millennia by societies and I would tend to agree with rusty's summarization for the most part.
:adios:

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #298 on: April 03, 2013, 11:19:04 AM »
So you're saying it's human nature to have morals?

I think most morals could be explained as ways the species tries to advance.

I've read some people trying to make a case for that. They were pretty bad explanations. Do you have anything you've read you could link or care to explain this stance any further?

Homosexuality.  Considered immoral by most religions. In nature however, sometimes essential. Some amphibians physically change gender in times of low population and will engage in same sex relationships in times of high populations. 

What in the world are you talking about? I'm asking why people in all societies, even atheists, consider some certain things to be immoral. Things like lying and stealing are all considered bad. I haven't heard a good reason why this would be the case if there wasn't a God. My question was does michigancat (or you, if you can grasp the concept of this post) have an explanation for why people want to be good/fair to others even when it doesn't benefit themselves.

Offline HeinBallz

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Does God Exist?
« Reply #299 on: April 03, 2013, 11:28:37 AM »
So you're saying it's human nature to have morals?

I think most morals could be explained as ways the species tries to advance.

I've read some people trying to make a case for that. They were pretty bad explanations. Do you have anything you've read you could link or care to explain this stance any further?

Homosexuality.  Considered immoral by most religions. In nature however, sometimes essential. Some amphibians physically change gender in times of low population and will engage in same sex relationships in times of high populations. 

What in the world are you talking about? I'm asking why people in all societies, even atheists, consider some certain things to be immoral. Things like lying and stealing are all considered bad. I haven't heard a good reason why this would be the case if there wasn't a God. My question was does michigancat (or you, if you can grasp the concept of this post) have an explanation for why people want to be good/fair to others even when it doesn't benefit themselves.


There's no reason to be a dick. Especially when you can't even comprehend my post.  I won't accuse you of being so intellectually insecure that you need to belittle and lash out of people...  But if the shoe fits.

Anyway, How do you explain empathy?  Do I have empathy only because if I don't, I might be condemned to a fiery eternity in hell by some authoritative figure?  Do you have a conscious?  Do you think it's exclusive to Christians?

Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.