Does God Exist?

[Stevesie60]

I think it had more to do with your personal experiences that were confirmed by debates you read.

[felix rex]

I evolved (heh) pretty much like michcat minus the catholic thing. I didn't change my mind because of debates but because I actually got old enough to start thinking about things on my own.

[fun muffin]

since this is now a fun muffin Q&A, i've always wondered why jesus had to die "for our sins".  if god is all powerful, can't he just be like "bros, you guys are cleaned of sin now" and skip killing his son that is also himself?

eagerly awaiting the answer, it's something i've been stuck on for a while.

Sin is like an insurmountable debt that must be paid.  Jesus did not commit any sin, therefore He is eligible to bear our sin in our place.

Sin like any other debt must be paid i.e. punished, otherwise God would not be just. If he just handed out forgiveness and everyone was clean, without the penalty being paid- justice would not be carried out. In the old testament, the system of atoning for sin is that sin would be transferred into an animal (goat or lamb). And then it would be sacrificed. but this process had to be done continuously. The priest would have to atone for the sins of the people in this way over and over.
 
Jesus, the 'Lamb' of God, was the ultimate sacrifice for sin.  He absorbed sin, into himself and laid his life down as the perfect atoning sacrifice. because he is God, this sacrifice was good enough to be perfect and absorb the punishment for sin, fully, finally and forever.  And then in Jesus's resurrection the victory over sin was/is completed.

[felix rex]

Also, fun muffin, their point is (to paraphrase someone famous) "I am me AND my circumstance". God created me, physical and mental strengths and weaknesses included, then put me in a circumstance that he also created. If he is all knowing, then he would know how his creation would interact with his created environmental model, like an engineer who designs bridges with different load bearing capacities but who also controls traffic and weather. Does the weak bridge choose to buckle?

Hence, either no free will or no omniscience/omnipotence.

I mean, Calvinists figured this out like 400 years ago. Hence the Protestant work ethic.

[felix rex]

since this is now a fun muffin Q&A, i've always wondered why jesus had to die "for our sins".  if god is all powerful, can't he just be like "bros, you guys are cleaned of sin now" and skip killing his son that is also himself?

eagerly awaiting the answer, it's something i've been stuck on for a while.

Sin is like an insurmountable debt that must be paid.  Jesus did not commit any sin, therefore He is eligible to bear our sin in our place.

Sin like any other debt must be paid i.e. punished, otherwise God would not be just. If he just handed out forgiveness and everyone was clean, without the penalty being paid- justice would not be carried out. In the old testament, the system of atoning for sin is that sin would be transferred into an animal (goat or lamb). And then it would be sacrificed. but this process had to be done continuously. The priest would have to atone for the sins of the people in this way over and over.
 
Jesus, the 'Lamb' of God, was the ultimate sacrifice for sin.  He absorbed sin, into himself and laid his life down as the perfect atoning sacrifice. because he is God, this sacrifice was good enough to be perfect and absorb the punishment for sin, fully, finally and forever.  And then in Jesus's resurrection the victory over sin was/is completed.

Again, the root question is if omnipotent god made all the rules, why did he make this one? Why not just replace crucifixion with a penalty box or community service? You're lumbering towards the "best of all possible worlds" question.

[michigancat]

since this is now a fun muffin Q&A, i've always wondered why jesus had to die "for our sins".  if god is all powerful, can't he just be like "bros, you guys are cleaned of sin now" and skip killing his son that is also himself?

eagerly awaiting the answer, it's something i've been stuck on for a while.

Sin is like an insurmountable debt that must be paid.  Jesus did not commit any sin, therefore He is eligible to bear our sin in our place.

Sin like any other debt must be paid i.e. punished, otherwise God would not be just. If he just handed out forgiveness and everyone was clean, without the penalty being paid- justice would not be carried out. In the old testament, the system of atoning for sin is that sin would be transferred into an animal (goat or lamb). And then it would be sacrificed. but this process had to be done continuously. The priest would have to atone for the sins of the people in this way over and over.

people in the old testament sounded like friggin idiots

[star seed 7]

What in the world.

[star seed 7]

Doesn't really instill personal responsibility if one dude can just get punished for everyone.

[Stevesie60]

Doesn't really instill personal responsibility if one dude can just get punished for everyone.

Well no way that's true, then. Religion was made up to control people.

[felix rex]

since this is now a fun muffin Q&A, i've always wondered why jesus had to die "for our sins".  if god is all powerful, can't he just be like "bros, you guys are cleaned of sin now" and skip killing his son that is also himself?

eagerly awaiting the answer, it's something i've been stuck on for a while.

Sin is like an insurmountable debt that must be paid.  Jesus did not commit any sin, therefore He is eligible to bear our sin in our place.

Sin like any other debt must be paid i.e. punished, otherwise God would not be just. If he just handed out forgiveness and everyone was clean, without the penalty being paid- justice would not be carried out. In the old testament, the system of atoning for sin is that sin would be transferred into an animal (goat or lamb). And then it would be sacrificed. but this process had to be done continuously. The priest would have to atone for the sins of the people in this way over and over.

people in the old testament sounded like friggin idiots

Can you blame goats for starting the whole Satan worship thing? They were really getting mumped in this deal. Every time Onan cranked one out behind the hut, one of their kids got gutted and set on fire.

[star seed 7]

Doesn't really instill personal responsibility if one dude can just get punished for everyone.

Well no way that's true, then. Religion was made up to control people.

Fwiw, I don't think it started out as a means of control, but was eventually hijacked by assholes.

[sys]

Everyone is so busy getting ready to make their next point that they're not even listening to what the other person is saying. The whole exercise is so futile, but we all feel the need to come post why WE'RE right.

i don't think that people usually change their minds in the middle of a debate; they attempt to vigorously defend their position and refute the opposing position.  however, i think that people later reflect upon their debates and ameliorate their positions if they found, in making their argument, themselves asserting things without basis in fact or logic.

[steve dave]

Everyone is defending and attacking a traditional Christian omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent god. There're a lot of other options.

[felix rex]

Everyone is defending and attacking a traditional Christian omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent god. There're a lot of other options.

I think several believe in a vaguely defined higher power, but until someone one-ups fun muffins links, this is his show.

[felix rex]

There is nothing wrong with the links.

In all honesty, I'm just deeply amused by this quote on the "inspired, inerrant" links. If there ever was a real discussion with fun muffin, it pretty much ended there.

EVERYONE: But what about [paradox]
FUN MUFFIN: LINKS

EVERYONE: But what about [problem of evil]
FUN MUFFIN: LINKS

EVERYONE: But what about [best of all possible worlds]
FUN MUFFIN: THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE LINKS!

[slobber]

fun muffin, you are doing a good job!

[Institutional Control]

I don't know how to ask this without sounding condescending, but I'd honestly like to ask how atheists think the universe was created.

We need a bigger super collider.

How do religious people think god was created?

http://carm.org/who-made-god-richard-dawkins

Ummm.. yeah, that answered nothing.

[puniraptor]

One of my biggest worries is that if Jesus does ever come back no one will believe him and everyone will just think he is a crazy and dismiss him (or repersecute him). He probably already has come back and is in prison or on the side of the road holding a sign.

[chum1]

I hate Richard Dawkins.  To me, the eqivalent would be listening to Cookie Monster lecture on Bakery Science.  Dawkins' logic skills are putrid.

[Institutional Control]

One of my biggest worries is that if Jesus does ever come back no one will believe him and everyone will just think he is a crazy and dismiss him (or repersecute him). He probably already has come back and is in prison or on the side of the road holding a sign.

He will probably have to resemble how da Vinci depicted him as well.  If he comes back looking like a middle eastener, nobody will buy it.

[Unruly]

Got some time to kill?

[EllRobersonisInnocent]

Got some time to kill?

I enjoy the Zeitgeist documentaries, all 3 are on Netflix as well

[HeinBallz]

Got some time to kill?

I saw this several years ago.  Although I enjoyed it; It irritated the crap out of me with the Horus / Jesus assertions it made.  Only because I know Horus was a god that spanned several dynasties and had several different stories depending on what dynasty you were referring to.  There were several different accounts as to who his mother/brother/children were.  Even completely different names used to refer to Horus. Sure, point out the similarities between Jesus and all other gods...  But don't say Jesus is exactly the same story of an Egyptian god that has very little information/stories that don't completely contradict themselves from others bits of info.

[felix rex]

I don't know how to ask this without sounding condescending, but I'd honestly like to ask how atheists think the universe was created.

We need a bigger super collider.

How do religious people think god was created?

http://carm.org/who-made-god-richard-dawkins

Ummm.. yeah, that answered nothing.

I like the half-ass deconstruction approach that he probably wouldn't want applied to any other questions.

What created God?
What created existence?
What existed creation?
Existence created what?

[8manpick]

Fun muffin, my intent was not to attack you last night, fwiw. I'm happy for you that you can feel some security and comfort in your beliefs. I personally think they are silly, but I'm just some guy on the internet.