KSU vs. LaSalle Good, Bad, Ugly

[doom]

Also, oscar should have attacked #25 as soon as he came back in.  If he'd fouled out, we would have won by 10+ we owned the paint when he went to the bench.

[kso_FAN]

FT % doesn't matter.  FT Rate does. 

But because oscar values a 15 footer over attacking the rim, he limits the rate at which FT's will be shot and therefore, stupidly, puts more pressure on the limited amount of times you get at the line.

99% of the time it doesn't, but when your FT rate is within 5% of your opponent and you shoot 35% worse its a legit factor in why you lost by 2.

Again, many more factors to why we lost, but you can't just dismiss FT% from yesterday's game. We had several opportunities to stretch our lead at the FT line in the 2nd half and we didn't and it was pretty much the only way La Salle was scoring.

['taterblast]

ex.

Team A shoots 90% from the line but gets 10 attempts (9/10)

Team B shoots 70% from the line but gets 20 attempts (14/20)

which is more valueable?

what if on 2 of the possessions where team A didn't shoot FT's, they got a 3 and a 2. which team is more valuable?

i'm not getting into this discussion, in the grand scheme of things you're probably right. but yesterday one team made free throws and the other made significantly less, with more attempts. so eff us.

['taterblast]

Also, oscar should have attacked #25 as soon as he came back in.  If he'd fouled out, we would have won by 10+ we owned the paint when he went to the bench.

i definitely agree with this.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

ex.

Team A shoots 90% from the line but gets 10 attempts (9/10)

Team B shoots 70% from the line but gets 20 attempts (14/20)

which is more valueable?

zacker everyone gets this, but everyone also gets that when given 20 free throws, making 15 is better than making 14.  As you and I have both said, improving at FT% won't make a gigantic difference for your team, but improving at FT% can add 1-2ppg over the course of a season.  FT% is the easiest thing in all of sports and no one should be bad at it.

[catzacker]

FT % doesn't matter.  FT Rate does. 

But because oscar values a 15 footer over attacking the rim, he limits the rate at which FT's will be shot and therefore, stupidly, puts more pressure on the limited amount of times you get at the line.

99% of the time it doesn't, but when your FT rate is within 5% of your opponent and you shoot 35% worse its a legit factor in why you lost by 2.

Again, many more factors to why we lost, but you can't just dismiss FT% from yesterday's game. We had several opportunities to stretch our lead at the FT line in the 2nd half and we didn't and it was pretty much the only way La Salle was scoring.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you don't get to the line that often, FT% becomes relevant.  If you get to the line often, FT Rate is far more relevant.  Yesterday, the attempts were just about equal, so FT% becomes relevant.  That being said, we shot 52.9% from FT.....so get 6 more attempts and we win.

[catzacker]

Also, LOL at the idea that FT's are what mumped us.  I mean, the goddamn 9million ppp in the first half was what rough ridin' killed us.

We lost to rough ridin' LaSalle.  La rough ridin' Salle.  And we're going to spend time talking about FT's?

[0.42]

Also, LOL at the idea that FT's are what mumped us.  I mean, the goddamn 9million ppp in the first half was what rough ridin' killed us.

We lost to rough ridin' LaSalle.  La rough ridin' Salle.  And we're going to spend time talking about FT's?

oh man.

['taterblast]

Also, LOL at the idea that FT's are what mumped us.  I mean, the goddamn 9million ppp in the first half was what rough ridin' killed us.

We lost to rough ridin' LaSalle.  La rough ridin' Salle.  And we're going to spend time talking about FT's?

there's plenty of things to bitch about. free throws, particularly in the second half, is one of them.

[catzacker]

Also, LOL at the idea that FT's are what mumped us.  I mean, the goddamn 9million ppp in the first half was what rough ridin' killed us.

We lost to rough ridin' LaSalle.  La rough ridin' Salle.  And we're going to spend time talking about FT's?

there's plenty of things to bitch about. free throws, particularly in the second half, is one of them.

yeah, and it's just about the last thing that should be on that list.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

ex.

Team A shoots 90% from the line but gets 10 attempts (9/10)

Team B shoots 70% from the line but gets 20 attempts (14/20)

which is more valueable?

what if on 2 of the possessions where team A didn't shoot FT's, they got a 3 and a 2. which team is more valuable?

This is a good point, and the simple answer is that for most players FT%>FG% and FTs are more efficient than FGs.  However, this is not true for a player like JO(39%) and in his case free throws are much worse than FGs, especially when you consider that FT% is artificially inflated by missing the front end of a one-and-one.  Statistically, JO shooting free throws is not a good outcome for an offensive possession.

edit:  there are other, harder to quantify benefits that even terrible free throw shooters like JO get from FTR, like moving the team closer to double bonus and putting players in foul trouble.  So, although JO shooting FTs may not be a great outcome those two factors make it less bad of an outcome.  I am still of the opinion that FT% is too easy for anyone to be bad at.

[SleepFighter]

JO was 3-8.  Everybody else combined for 6-9.

Stop complaining about FT%.

[sys]

it was a tie game with 30 seconds to go, correct?  something like that anyway.  in a game that close you can point to anything as the cause of the loss.  to%, oboard, dboard, 2pt fg%, 3pt fg%, ft%, def fg%s, literally anything.  yet it's always ft% with fans.  a strange obsession.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

it was a tie game with 30 seconds to go, correct?  something like that anyway.  in a game that close you can point to anything as the cause of the loss.  to%, oboard, dboard, 2pt fg%, 3pt fg%, ft%, def fg%s, literally anything.  yet it's always ft% with fans.  a strange obsession.

that's because it's easy to talk about how easy ft% should be.  there is no randomness or opposition.  just a single person not sucking at something.  like, if your 5 year old son sucked at pissing in the toilet instead of pissing in his pants, i would point out that you should potty train him

[kso_FAN]

it was a tie game with 30 seconds to go, correct?  something like that anyway.  in a game that close you can point to anything as the cause of the loss.  to%, oboard, dboard, 2pt fg%, 3pt fg%, ft%, def fg%s, literally anything.  yet it's always ft% with fans.  a strange obsession.

FWIW, I'd put 3PT% higher as well as terrible first half defense.

FT% only stuck out to me because 2PT% and FT rate ended up pretty similar. eFG% (-5%) and OR% (+13%) kind of balanced each other out.

The last 10 minutes, La Salle made one shot and went 9-10 from the FT line. We made 5 lay-ups/dunks and went 3-7 on FTs including a miss on a front end.

But yeah, it was just one thing of many in a close game that you can pick and choose from.

[SwiftCat]

it was a tie game with 30 seconds to go, correct?  something like that anyway.  in a game that close you can point to anything as the cause of the loss.  to%, oboard, dboard, 2pt fg%, 3pt fg%, ft%, def fg%s, literally anything.  yet it's always ft% with fans.  a strange obsession.

Why do you insist on talking about the game if you didn't watch it?

[sys]

Why do you insist on talking about the game if you didn't watch it?

it's a pretty big topic at the moment.  why shouldn't i discuss it?

[Powercat Posse]

We did not do the things that won us 12 of 15 going into NCAA tourney

1) we were 4-13 from 3pt.   That is 30.7%.   We had been shooting almost 40%. 
2) we were 9-17 on FTs.   That is 52.9%. We had been shooting about 74%
3) we win TO% Dif.   On ave we were about +3 in TOs per game.   Against Lasalle we were -1

So make 1 more 3pt and 3 more FTs and we would have been close to what we had been doing (that is 6 more pts).   And then instead of being +3 we are -1.   That is 4 big possessions. 

[nicname]

We did not do the things that won us 12 of 15 going into NCAA tourney

1) we were 4-13 from 3pt.   That is 30.7%.   We had been shooting almost 40%. 
2) we were 9-17 on FTs.   That is 52.9%. We had been shooting about 74%
3) we win TO% Dif.   On ave we were about +3 in TOs per game.   Against Lasalle we were -1

So make 1 more 3pt and 3 more FTs and we would have been close to what we had been doing (that is 6 more pts).   And then instead of being +3 we are -1.   That is 4 big possessions.

 

[AndrewVonLintel]

It is true that if we would have bumped up any particular stat we would have won.

However it is important to note this wasn't Wichita State, Tubby Smith's Minnesota, or an athletic Oregon Team or even Ole Miss.

This was a giant turd that beat us because we can't game plan worth a damn and we were blind to the fact that JO and Shane were obviously  the go to guys.

 

[Powercat Posse]

It is true that if we would have bumped up any particular stat we would have won.

However it is important to note this wasn't Wichita State, Tubby Smith's Minnesota, or an athletic Oregon Team or even Ole Miss.

This was a giant turd that beat us because we can't game plan worth a damn and we were blind to the fact that JO and Shane were obviously  the go to guys.

 

Meh, Angel had a crappy game and Rod struggled shooting the ball, but in crunch time i still want the ball in Angel's hands and i still want Rod taking the big shot.    BB is a game of inches.   Rod's 3 rattled in and out.   His shot was at most an inch long (a lot of missed shots are off my a few inches)

We just did not execute on offense the final 7 minutes and a couple of uncharacteristic Angel TOs in 2nd hf were costly (both led to fast breaks where LaSalle got fouled and hit 4-4 FTs). LaSalle did nothing in the half court the 2nd half, so letting them get transistion pts was not a good thing

Rod had a fast break layup that he missed, Shane got the rebound, found Gip who missed a bunny layup to convert a possible 3 pt play.  Gip only makes 1 of 2 FTs.    Those are points we left on the court..... and with the game basicly tied from 7:05 mark to the :10 second mark of the 2nd half..... little things like that matter.

[CHONGS]

The main problem was the crap-tacular defense in the first half.  It was beyond awful and essentially forced us to play an almost perfect second half to just come back to fail at the end. 

[kso_FAN]

The main problem was the crap-tacular defense in the first half.  It was beyond awful and essentially forced us to play an almost perfect second half to just come back to fail at the end. 

I agree, but not shooting 39% and turning it over on 1/4 of our possessions would've helped keep it much closer than 18 too. It was a terrible first half on offense and defense.

[Powercat Posse]

The main problem was the crap-tacular defense in the first half.  It was beyond awful and essentially forced us to play an almost perfect second half to just come back to fail at the end. 

I agree, but not shooting 39% and turning it over on 1/4 of our possessions would've helped keep it much closer than 18 too. It was a terrible first half on offense and defense.

Yeah, in Lawrence we played a bad first half.    KU had a 67.2 to 47.9 adv in shooting and KU was +3 in TOs
On Friday, LaSalle had a 67.7 to 39.6 adv. in shooting and LaSalle was +5 in TOs.

Just shows you how poor of a half we had in SC two days ago

[theKSU]

We got beat  by a team that's already won 3 NCAA tournament games. I guess they must be super shitty and only played well because oscar is bad at coaching defense and free throwing.