Will our worst off, be less worse off?

[Pete]

Is there a reasonable argument that counters the notion that, on an aggregate basis, there will be less suffering as a result of health care issue in the future than there is today?  Can anyone really argue that insuring 30+ million souls is not going to improve the human condition for those most in need in this country?


It's cool with me if you don't value that, just don't blow smoke up my skirt with arguments suggesting that this initiative won't help those who are worst off.


I was raised Christian....religious grade school, Sunday school, missed nary a Sunday growing up....Lutheran...pretty conservative group.   Everything I was taught by them seems consistent with trying to help the worst off.  Jesus provided numerous parables where he articulated this.


Also, don't forget that we are the only Western nation that doesn't provide health care for all citizens....of course, we're the only Western nation that has the death penalty.


Point is, dudes, that I really think that if there is a God, we are doing God's will by moving toward providing health care for all our citizens.  I really believe that.

[OK_Cat]

exactly.  politics aside, i don't understand the outrage.  maybe i live in a world with rainbows and sunshine, but helping a large segment of society is never a bad thing.

[Pete]

exactly.  politics aside, i don't understand the outrage.  maybe i live in a world with rainbows and sunshine, but helping a large segment of society is never a bad thing.

Agreed.  It's not like you are going to get to Heaven and God's going to give you crap about choosing to pay for the health of others.  In contrast, I could imagine God having a different opinion about failing to pay for the health of others....

[wetwillie]

I haven't read the entire bill and can't say I know everything about it, but I don't see how this helps the 30+ million uninsured.  I know that the bill subsidizes premiums for a certain income level but isn't this essentially forcing the people who couldn't afford to buy health insurance to buy health insurance?  Even with the subsidy for qualifying individuals won't the increase in premiums due to now being required to cover pre existing conditions and not being able to cap payout limits from the insurance companies still render this group unable to afford health insurance?

[Jeffy]

exactly.  politics aside, i don't understand the outrage.  maybe i live in a world with rainbows and sunshine, but helping a large segment of society is never a bad thing.

Helping 32 million at the expense of 100 million is self-defeating.

[OK_Cat]

explain, jeffy.  it honestly sounds like you're spouting republican rhetoric.

pete (and me, for that matter) are trying to have 1 thread where all the political bullshit is thrown out the window.

[Dirty Sanchez]

Jesus never says anything about Caesar taking to give to the poor.  He says YOU do it.

[AzCat]

The rub here is the federal subsidies.  Eventually costs will be controlled by rationing care in order to control the cost of the subsidies.   We'll have more insured persons but the quality and amount of care will decline over time.  More insurance (paper) less actual care (product); very typical of the sort of "solution" that always falls out of government intervention in the markets.  It's not a pure tragedy of the commons problem but it's of that sort. 

[CatsFan_58]

Jesus never says anything about Caesar taking to give to the poor.  He says YOU do it.

Exactly... there is charity, and there is thievery.

[Jeffy]

explain, jeffy.  it honestly sounds like you're spouting republican rhetoric.

pete (and me, for that matter) are trying to have 1 thread where all the political bullshit is thrown out the window.

What creates tax revenue?  Income
What creates income?  Jobs
Is it the "rich" or the "poor" that create jobs?  I'll let you answer this one.... and the government doesn't create production jobs, jobs which positive economic value to society
When jobs are created, what happens?  More income
When there's more income, what happens?  More tax revenue!

So, if taxes are increased, what do businesses do?  They pass along the cost of business to their customers (price increases) or to their employees (layoffs, wage cuts/hour reductions, benefit reduction)
Price increases are fairly neutral to sales tax revenue, since the additional taxes derived from the price increase is offset by fewer items purchased.
When taxes on the business go up, layoffs and wage reductions to the employees directly impact their purchasing power.  Additionally, lower income means lower income taxes from those people.

The converse of the situation follows.  Lower taxes (to a point, of course) allow businesses to reinvest earnings into the system in the form of hiring, business expansion, plus they pay more taxes based on the fact that they earn more.  And more employees means more income tax and more spending (sales tax revenue).  Increased employment also leads to decreased entitlement payouts, be it unemployment, welfare, food stamps, so the government's "need" for more money is decreased.

[Pete]

Sorry dudes, I don't think we'll ever see eye-to-eye on this one....not that you guys were holding your breath waiting for that to happen.   

[AzCat]

So you don't think cost controls will ever kick in for this new entitlement? 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Sorry dudes, I don't think we'll ever see eye-to-eye on this one....not that you guys were holding your breath waiting for that to happen.   

We will.  It will either be us by threat or you by stark realization of the failure.

[Stupid Fitz]

I am not against 30 million people getting coverage.  I am against the people in that 30 million (prob a lot) that are just lazy, worthless, and creators of more lazy, worthless people.  If the libs want more control (they obviously do) they should mandate birth control on anyone that can't care for themselves. 

The argument to me isn't about me not wanting 30 million to have coverage, it is more about the other crap that is in the bill and the overall costs.  I don't see how anyone can look at doing this, in this bill, and it won't end up costing way more than the projections.  They estimated the costs of medicare at one point and look how wrong they were about those costs. 

I also don't see how this doesn't cause a reduction in overall care.  I am sure many doctors become doctors "for the greater good", but I bet they also like driving nice cars and living in big houses. 

One thing I am sure of is that I am sick of the whole process.  We are in pretty bad shape now.  I don't know what it will take, but at some point the parties have to come together.  The all or none on both sides doesn't help anyone. 

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

exactly.  politics aside, i don't understand the outrage.  maybe i live in a world with rainbows and sunshine, but helping a large segment of society is never a bad thing.

I don't think any of us are against helping, but it should not be mandated by our government. Helping poor people is the responsibility of those that can, like you and Pete and me. I would be all for the IRS adding a box to my form that would allow me to write in an amount that I would like to donate to help buy insurance for poor people.  I know you and Pete would be donating all you can afford.

[AzCat]

We are in pretty bad shape now.  I don't know what it will take, but at some point the parties have to come together.  The all or none on both sides doesn't help anyone. 

The single most vexing political problem in the USA over the past century is that the parties have come together.  We've had slow burn statism from the trunks & fast burn statism from the donks over that time frame.  The question has been, particularly in recent years, merely one of pace and not of the ultimate destination to which either party would drive us.

[Jeffy]

exactly.  politics aside, i don't understand the outrage.  maybe i live in a world with rainbows and sunshine, but helping a large segment of society is never a bad thing.

I don't think any of us are against helping, but it should not be mandated by our government. Helping poor people is the responsibility of those that can, like you and Pete and me. I would be all for the IRS adding a box to my form that would allow me to write in an amount that I would like to donate to help buy insurance for poor people.  I know you and Pete would be donating all you can afford.

Hold on there, bub!  You're talking about a lib using THEIR OWN money to fix something.  Surely that is not an option.

[pike]

explain, jeffy.  it honestly sounds like you're spouting republican rhetoric.

pete (and me, for that matter) are trying to have 1 thread where all the political bullshit is thrown out the window.

What creates tax revenue?  Income
What creates income?  Jobs
Is it the "rich" or the "poor" that create jobs?  I'll let you answer this one.... and the government doesn't create production jobs, jobs which positive economic value to society
When jobs are created, what happens?  More income
When there's more income, what happens?  More tax revenue!

So, if taxes are increased, what do businesses do?  They pass along the cost of business to their customers (price increases) or to their employees (layoffs, wage cuts/hour reductions, benefit reduction)
Price increases are fairly neutral to sales tax revenue, since the additional taxes derived from the price increase is offset by fewer items purchased.
When taxes on the business go up, layoffs and wage reductions to the employees directly impact their purchasing power.  Additionally, lower income means lower income taxes from those people.

The converse of the situation follows.  Lower taxes (to a point, of course) allow businesses to reinvest earnings into the system in the form of hiring, business expansion, plus they pay more taxes based on the fact that they earn more.  And more employees means more income tax and more spending (sales tax revenue).  Increased employment also leads to decreased entitlement payouts, be it unemployment, welfare, food stamps, so the government's "need" for more money is decreased.

I am fascinated that people do not understand this, seriously. Cap and Trade will, in the sense that it's basically a tax, will have the same effect. The New World Order is just trying to tear things apart

[michigancat]

and the government doesn't create production jobs, jobs which positive economic value to society

love it when jeffy does this.

[Jeffy]

and the government doesn't create production jobs, jobs which positive economic value to society

love it when jeffy does this.

It's true.  My job doesn't add production to society.  My job is also at the state level.  It is also connected to roads, which is acceptable within the construct of the Constitution.  I'm just not sure why you have such a hard time understanding that.

[michigancat]

and the government doesn't create production jobs, jobs which positive economic value to society

love it when jeffy does this.

It's true.  My job doesn't add production to society.  My job is also at the state level.  It is also connected to roads, which is acceptable within the construct of the Constitution.  I'm just not sure why you have such a hard time understanding that.

Believe me, I understand perfectly.