Author Topic: San Francisco things  (Read 80391 times)

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Offline Pete

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1575 on: August 05, 2020, 12:34:38 PM »
It's kinda shitty that people get displaced, but a lot of this comes across to me as "I want to be able to live wherever I want whatever my income." And I don't have much sympathy for that because if you're entertaining the idea of living in San Francisco, you could probably afford to live in 99% of the places in the US. That's not enough choice for you???

This sums up my feelings as well.  Every day that goes by with successful remote working, the more I feel like this stance is affirmed.

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1576 on: August 05, 2020, 12:45:46 PM »
It's kinda shitty that people get displaced, but a lot of this comes across to me as "I want to be able to live wherever I want whatever my income." And I don't have much sympathy for that because if you're entertaining the idea of living in San Francisco, you could probably afford to live in 99% of the places in the US. That's not enough choice for you???

I used to think that way but I've evolved. It's easy to say "just move" but it's often displacing the elderly and poor people with families and tight-knit immigrant communities. And their jobs are like teachers and service people. So like it's easy to tell someone from Guatemala working in a kitchen on Valencia to up and move to Wichita, but it's not an easy thing to do. And if they don't move out of the area, they're moving somewhere with like a 2 hour commute. (Also moving also isn't cheap).

So on one hand, it's really disruptive to families and the elderly, but it's also difficult to have a quality city without cooks, dishwashers, custodians, and teachers, and the like.

Offline kim carnes

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1577 on: August 05, 2020, 12:56:23 PM »
Moving is cheap. And there are a lot of places a Guatemalan person could and should live before sf.

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1578 on: August 05, 2020, 01:02:54 PM »
Moving is cheap. And there are a lot of places a Guatemalan person could and should live before sf.

why do you think so many end up in SF?

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1579 on: August 05, 2020, 01:04:40 PM »
the elderly and poor people with families and tight-knit immigrant communities.

Are there really many of these people left? Gentrification has been an issue there for forever, so I (perhaps falsely) assume that they're all basically gone already. I also always see the housing complaints coming from young, white, college educated people, naturally.

it's also difficult to have a quality city without cooks, dishwashers, custodians, and teachers, and the like.

This is another not much sympathy issue for me. Like, yeah, well, that's what you get.

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1580 on: August 05, 2020, 01:24:12 PM »
the elderly and poor people with families and tight-knit immigrant communities.

Are there really many of these people left? Gentrification has been an issue there for forever, so I (perhaps falsely) assume that they're all basically gone already. I also always see the housing complaints coming from young, white, college educated people, naturally.

yes, there's still a lot of those people left. Rent control is a factor for some but there are still pretty dense pockets of Latinos in the Mission, Filipinos in Soma (although fewer of them are immigrants), and poorer Chinese in Chinatown. (Chinese are all over the city but there's a lot of wealth outside of Chinatown). They've pretty much displaced all of the black community to the SE corner of the city and a few housing projects but it's dwindling every day.


Offline sys

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1581 on: August 05, 2020, 01:34:32 PM »
this may be a misinterpretation based on how the different colors pop on the map, but it looks like sf might be fairly unique among american cities in that the black population is the least segregated racial/ethnic group.  also interesting how there seems to be asymmetrical overlap between the groups.  with hispanics being like universal blood donors or something in that they kinda mix with everyone somewhere.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline kim carnes

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1582 on: August 05, 2020, 01:47:35 PM »
Moving is cheap. And there are a lot of places a Guatemalan person could and should live before sf.

why do you think so many end up in SF?

Why?  Bc that’s what immigrants do.  The cost of living in the Bay Area is well known, no one is forced to move there.  It’s annoying listening to people who willingly move to an expensive place act like they’re entitled to affordable housing.  There are literally millions of people who would like to move to coastal California if the cost of living were lower.

Offline kim carnes

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1583 on: August 05, 2020, 01:52:33 PM »
You live in a fantasy world, michigancat

Online michigancat

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1584 on: August 05, 2020, 01:57:31 PM »
You live in a fantasy world, michigancat

it's great, thanks for following along!

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1585 on: August 05, 2020, 02:47:42 PM »
this may be a misinterpretation based on how the different colors pop on the map, but it looks like sf might be fairly unique among american cities in that the black population is the least segregated racial/ethnic group.  also interesting how there seems to be asymmetrical overlap between the groups.  with hispanics being like universal blood donors or something in that they kinda mix with everyone somewhere.

I bet a lot of that is because black neighborhoods have been truly gentrified more than most communities. My guess is Brooklyn and Harlem might be similar


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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1586 on: August 05, 2020, 02:51:56 PM »
wow I thought way more white people lived in harlem these days



and I was wrong about brooklyn too

« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 03:17:33 PM by michigancat »

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1587 on: August 05, 2020, 03:00:21 PM »
Tend to agree with Pete, Chum and Kim (to the surprise of nobody, i'm sure).  if you're renting in an oppressively expensive city, the most obvious and easiest solution seems to be "move to where rent is cheaper." 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 03:03:48 PM by DQ12 »


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1588 on: August 05, 2020, 03:05:31 PM »
the elderly and poor people with families and tight-knit immigrant communities.

Are there really many of these people left? Gentrification has been an issue there for forever, so I (perhaps falsely) assume that they're all basically gone already. I also always see the housing complaints coming from young, white, college educated people, naturally.

yes, there's still a lot of those people left. Rent control is a factor for some but there are still pretty dense pockets of Latinos in the Mission, Filipinos in Soma (although fewer of them are immigrants), and poorer Chinese in Chinatown. (Chinese are all over the city but there's a lot of wealth outside of Chinatown). They've pretty much displaced all of the black community to the SE corner of the city and a few housing projects but it's dwindling every day.



I remember when I first found the census dot map and was shocked at how many more Asians there are in California as compared to KC. It obviously makes sense that Asian immigrants would settle in CA but it wasn't until I saw it represented in the dot map format that it really sunk in.


Online chum1

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1589 on: August 05, 2020, 03:17:21 PM »
I definitely remember seeing "Asians" EVERYWHERE in San Francisco. And I remember being in The South for the first time and thinking, "man, there are like ZERO black people in Kansas."

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1590 on: August 05, 2020, 03:55:34 PM »
Tend to agree with Pete, Chum and Kim (to the surprise of nobody, i'm sure).  if you're renting in an oppressively expensive city, the most obvious and easiest solution seems to be "move to where rent is cheaper." 

Yeah I get how it's easy for people who grew up in KS and chose to live in like the cheapest most undesirable cities in the US to think that way.

 ;)

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1591 on: August 05, 2020, 03:58:18 PM »
Tend to agree with Pete, Chum and Kim (to the surprise of nobody, i'm sure).  if you're renting in an oppressively expensive city, the most obvious and easiest solution seems to be "move to where rent is cheaper." 

Yeah I get how it's easy for people who grew up in KS and chose to live in like the cheapest most undesirable cities in the US to think that way.

 ;)
;) aside, I lived in Chicago for years and heard a lot of people bitching about how expensive housing was -- and they were right.  It was very expensive.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1592 on: August 05, 2020, 04:26:36 PM »
Tend to agree with Pete, Chum and Kim (to the surprise of nobody, i'm sure).  if you're renting in an oppressively expensive city, the most obvious and easiest solution seems to be "move to where rent is cheaper." 

Yeah I get how it's easy for people who grew up in KS and chose to live in like the cheapest most undesirable cities in the US to think that way.

 ;)
;) aside, I lived in Chicago for years and heard a lot of people bitching about how expensive housing was -- and they were right.  It was very expensive.

yeah I think a big difference is working class people can still afford to live in Chicago. I think SF has a $15 minimum wage but it doesn't really matter if you can't find a 2 BR under $2k (I looked and only one of these wasn't actually just a room)



compare the same scale to the north side of chicago



also (you would know better), but Chicago still has places that haven't been gentrified. like the south side is just too big (and dangerous) for the people complaining about rent in Lincoln Park to invade and I feel like the places becoming more expensive were pretty yuppie-ish to begin with and less about yuppies forcing out poor latinos. (again, defer to your expertise on this). Like chum alluded to, there's not much space left in SF to gentrify other than small pockets who are clinking and have pressure from all sides. Oakland is seeing a lot of folks displaced too but I think East Oakland will take a while. (Historically black West Oakland is too convenient to SF to not gentrify)

Offline sys

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1593 on: August 05, 2020, 04:56:26 PM »
i feel like you are all getting too dug in on how to allocate a scarce resource when everyone agrees that the resource should be made less scarce.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1594 on: August 05, 2020, 05:05:30 PM »
i feel like you are all getting too dug in on how to allocate a scarce resource when everyone agrees that the resource should be made less scarce.

I agree that it should be less scarce but a lot of people in SF DON'T agree, and it's usually tenant groups teamed up with wealthy white homeowners like Robert Reich.

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1595 on: August 05, 2020, 05:09:42 PM »
^also I feel bad for people who have worked hard to build lives in a place and are forced out, regardless of the reason.

Offline 8manpick

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San Francisco things
« Reply #1596 on: August 05, 2020, 05:13:54 PM »
Tend to agree with Pete, Chum and Kim (to the surprise of nobody, i'm sure).  if you're renting in an oppressively expensive city, the most obvious and easiest solution seems to be "move to where rent is cheaper." 

Yeah I get how it's easy for people who grew up in KS and chose to live in like the cheapest most undesirable cities in the US to think that way.

 ;)
;) aside, I lived in Chicago for years and heard a lot of people bitching about how expensive housing was -- and they were right.  It was very expensive.

yeah I think a big difference is working class people can still afford to live in Chicago. I think SF has a $15 minimum wage but it doesn't really matter if you can't find a 2 BR under $2k (I looked and only one of these wasn't actually just a room)

compare the same scale to the north side of chicago

also (you would know better), but Chicago still has places that haven't been gentrified. like the south side is just too big (and dangerous) for the people complaining about rent in Lincoln Park to invade and I feel like the places becoming more expensive were pretty yuppie-ish to begin with and less about yuppies forcing out poor latinos. (again, defer to your expertise on this). Like chum alluded to, there's not much space left in SF to gentrify other than small pockets who are clinking and have pressure from all sides. Oakland is seeing a lot of folks displaced too but I think East Oakland will take a while. (Historically black West Oakland is too convenient to SF to not gentrify)

Chicago is enormous land wise compared to SF

South side starting to gentrify some in specific adjacent neighborhoods, i.e. South Loop ->Bronzeville and Hyde Park -> Kenwood.

Parts of the northwest side has had (and still has) a lot of yuppies forcing out Latinos, previously in Wicker Park, now in Logan Square, moving into Humbolt Park, etc.

I’ve always had a hard time wrapping my head around the gentrification debate. I understand not wanting to displace current residents who may be marginalized in some way, but also “no, don’t make this neighborhood nicer, safer, and more desirable” is a weird argument.
:adios:

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1597 on: August 05, 2020, 05:25:03 PM »
Thanks for context. I think the issue is that "nicer and more desirable" is subjective and determined through a specific lens that diminishes the people already living there. Mission Street in SF has a ton of businesses that cater to Latinos who probably find it a lot more desirable, nice, and welcoming than the fancy fast casual restaurants and pour over coffee shops two blocks away on Valencia.

Even if it gentrification was objectively "good", increasing the value/desirability of a place doesn't do much good in the long run to folks who live there but can't afford to own property.

Offline sys

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1598 on: August 05, 2020, 05:31:08 PM »
“no, don’t make this neighborhood nicer, safer, and more desirable” is a weird argument.

yeah, it's a very bad argument.  i saw it expressed quasi-mathematically, and at least for me, it crystalized why it is anti-gentrification nimbyism is just fundamentally dumb.  i can't recall it exactly, and my recreation below is much less pithy, but it was something like:

for any given city, a location's desirability is a function of distance from the center and shittyness of the neighborhood.


we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

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Re: San Francisco things
« Reply #1599 on: August 06, 2020, 06:22:27 PM »
heh

Quote from: Oakland musician who always posts in all caps
DIDNT REALIZE THE FINAL STEP IN GENTRIFICATION WAS MOVING TO A RURAL TOWN WHERE EVERYBODY THINKS YOURE A DICK BECAUSE YOU THINK THEY ARE STUPID.

good follow up

Quote
When did we all go from "omg I'm so broke" to "omg we're all buying houses in grass valley now"