Frank Haith '12-'13 = oscar Weber '13-'14

[ksupamplemousse]

So what objective data are you using to say that a mid-major SIU team had more talent than a #2 seeded Mizzou team? We know it is high school star ratings nor NBA draft status/position.

I would argue that none of oscar's SIU teams were better than Mizzou last year.

Missouri had a historically good offense (the best in the country). It was better on offense than oscar's team that had Dee Brown and Deron Williams.

How can you have the best offense in the country (any year) with poor x's and o's?

Yep, he took a defensive minded team, that really only knew how to run the break and jack up guarded threes into a finely tuned machine on offense. That's not easy to do in one year. But, Haith seems to have some kind of cancerous effect on his team's personality, and it's showing up this year. It's some kind of intangible that is hard to put your finger on, but I'm afraid that oscar has a similar kind of cancerous effect over time. I think that Haith is a much better X&Oer than people give him credit for, and I think that oscar has been a much better recruiter (or at least had much better recruiters on his staff) than people have given him credit for. The problem is somewhere in their personality, and when their team takes on these coaches personalities, then the slow slide to mediocrity starts.

[michigancat]

You can argue whatever you want and you can love the offensive pace and play of a team but what you like and argue are subjective points! Objective points are 2 1st place conference finishes and the S16 compared to 2nd place and the 2nd round loss with significantly better talent! Another objective fact, Haith best conference finish was last year in 2nd place, prior to that in an 8 year career had never finished better than 5th in the conference. Weber in a 14 year career had finished worse than 5th only twice. So in 12 of 14 years Weber did as well or better than Haith ever did prior to last year. Weber has 4 1st place conference finishes and 2 2nd place finishes in conference. Pace is great but I think most people judge a coach off of wins and losses. Most measure the success of a coach off of how he does in the tourney, how he does against his fellow conference bretheren. Objectively Weber is just better. You make no like how his offense looks but it wins, Haith not as much.

MU had the best offense in the country regardless of pace. Their tempo was almost identical to the national average. there is nothing subjective about that at all. You can argue that Haith's x's and o's had nothing to do with it, but that's a pretty stupid argument.

http://kenpom.com/index.php?y=2012&s=RankAdjOE

[quietstorm5]

Once again, it's nice that they had a great offense, it was better than the offense that Weber had with 04-05 Illini team. You know what though, despite that he coached that team better than Haith did last year's Mizzou team, as evidenced by the little fact of him winning his conference, winning the conference tournament and getting to the National title game. Again I'm gonna go out on limb and say Weber is better! I'm thinking wins might just be a better and only objective way to judge a coach. Nice to have a great offense but it's way better to you know, win 

You can argue whatever you want and you can love the offensive pace and play of a team but what you like and argue are subjective points! Objective points are 2 1st place conference finishes and the S16 compared to 2nd place and the 2nd round loss with significantly better talent! Another objective fact, Haith best conference finish was last year in 2nd place, prior to that in an 8 year career had never finished better than 5th in the conference. Weber in a 14 year career had finished worse than 5th only twice. So in 12 of 14 years Weber did as well or better than Haith ever did prior to last year. Weber has 4 1st place conference finishes and 2 2nd place finishes in conference. Pace is great but I think most people judge a coach off of wins and losses. Most measure the success of a coach off of how he does in the tourney, how he does against his fellow conference bretheren. Objectively Weber is just better. You make no like how his offense looks but it wins, Haith not as much.

MU had the best offense in the country regardless of pace. Their tempo was almost identical to the national average. there is nothing subjective about that at all. You can argue that Haith's x's and o's had nothing to do with it, but that's a pretty stupid argument.

http://kenpom.com/index.php?y=2012&s=RankAdjOE

[kougar24]

You make no like how his offense looks but it wins, Haith not as much.

This cracked me up for some reason.

[quietstorm5]

I don't think there is anything you said that I could disagree with! I think the difference is that Weber has shown that he can occasionally rise out of mediocrity with his own players and be above average here and there. Haith hasn't shown he can do that with his own players.

So what objective data are you using to say that a mid-major SIU team had more talent than a #2 seeded Mizzou team? We know it is high school star ratings nor NBA draft status/position.

I would argue that none of oscar's SIU teams were better than Mizzou last year.

Missouri had a historically good offense (the best in the country). It was better on offense than oscar's team that had Dee Brown and Deron Williams.

How can you have the best offense in the country (any year) with poor x's and o's?

Yep, he took a defensive minded team, that really only knew how to run the break and jack up guarded threes into a finely tuned machine on offense. That's not easy to do in one year. But, Haith seems to have some kind of cancerous effect on his team's personality, and it's showing up this year. It's some kind of intangible that is hard to put your finger on, but I'm afraid that oscar has a similar kind of cancerous effect over time. I think that Haith is a much better X&Oer than people give him credit for, and I think that oscar has been a much better recruiter (or at least had much better recruiters on his staff) than people have given him credit for. The problem is somewhere in their personality, and when their team takes on these coaches personalities, then the slow slide to mediocrity starts.

[kso_FAN]

I think people are debating past one another.

Its hard to say if Haith is a better Xs and Os coach than oscar, and it probably depends what you mean. Haith's teams have overall been better offensively, so maybe his offensive Xs/Os are better, but its pretty much a wash.

The difference is a) oscar's teams have been much better on defense, especially eFG% and TO%, and b) oscar has worked with more talent. That's probably why oscar has had better results. I agree that its simplistic to say that its because of "Xs/Os" or whatever.

[ksupamplemousse]

I don't think there is anything you said that I could disagree with! I think the difference is that Weber has shown that he can occasionally rise out of mediocrity with his own players and be above average here and there. Haith hasn't shown he can do that with his own players.

So what objective data are you using to say that a mid-major SIU team had more talent than a #2 seeded Mizzou team? We know it is high school star ratings nor NBA draft status/position.

I would argue that none of oscar's SIU teams were better than Mizzou last year.

Missouri had a historically good offense (the best in the country). It was better on offense than oscar's team that had Dee Brown and Deron Williams.

How can you have the best offense in the country (any year) with poor x's and o's?

Yep, he took a defensive minded team, that really only knew how to run the break and jack up guarded threes into a finely tuned machine on offense. That's not easy to do in one year. But, Haith seems to have some kind of cancerous effect on his team's personality, and it's showing up this year. It's some kind of intangible that is hard to put your finger on, but I'm afraid that oscar has a similar kind of cancerous effect over time. I think that Haith is a much better X&Oer than people give him credit for, and I think that oscar has been a much better recruiter (or at least had much better recruiters on his staff) than people have given him credit for. The problem is somewhere in their personality, and when their team takes on these coaches personalities, then the slow slide to mediocrity starts.

I guess the issue for me is that a coach that "can occasionally rise out of mediocrity with his own players" is still a really rough ridin' mediocre coach, and someone that I don't want getting their sticky chicken nuggets fingers all over my program.

[quietstorm5]

I completely understand what you are saying and that's why I mentioned the first poster who brought up the better x's and o's should've just said better period. That Weber is better period can't be denied. He may  just be mediocre but he is still better than Haith! Take away his accomplisments with Self's recruits and he hasn't had more talent than Haith. Certainly not while at SIU and with his 08-09 Illini team. Yet even with those teams he did things that Haith has never done.

I think people are debating past one another.

Its hard to say if Haith is a better Xs and Os coach than oscar, and it probably depends what you mean. Haith's teams have overall been better offensively, so maybe his offensive Xs/Os are better, but its pretty much a wash.

The difference is a) oscar's teams have been much better on defense, especially eFG% and TO%, and b) oscar has worked with more talent. That's probably why oscar has had better results. I agree that its simplistic to say that its because of "Xs/Os" or whatever.

[michigancat]

I think people are debating past one another.

Its hard to say if Haith is a better Xs and Os coach than oscar, and it probably depends what you mean. Haith's teams have overall been better offensively, so maybe his offensive Xs/Os are better, but its pretty much a wash.

The difference is a) oscar's teams have been much better on defense, especially eFG% and TO%, and b) oscar has worked with more talent. That's probably why oscar has had better results. I agree that its simplistic to say that its because of "Xs/Os" or whatever.

I'm not arguing that Haith is better at x's and o's than oscar at all. I just think the statement of "Webs is a way better XandOer but won't ever build the talent up. Hadith has some pieces but no clue how to use them." is based on racism, and I don't like racism.

[kso_FAN]

I think people are debating past one another.

Its hard to say if Haith is a better Xs and Os coach than oscar, and it probably depends what you mean. Haith's teams have overall been better offensively, so maybe his offensive Xs/Os are better, but its pretty much a wash.

The difference is a) oscar's teams have been much better on defense, especially eFG% and TO%, and b) oscar has worked with more talent. That's probably why oscar has had better results. I agree that its simplistic to say that its because of "Xs/Os" or whatever.

I'm not arguing that Haith is better at x's and o's than oscar at all. I just think the statement of "Webs is a way better XandOer but won't ever build the talent up. Hadith has some pieces but no clue how to use them." is based on racism, and I don't like racism.

Yeah, I can see that.

[ksupamplemousse]

I think people are debating past one another.

Its hard to say if Haith is a better Xs and Os coach than oscar, and it probably depends what you mean. Haith's teams have overall been better offensively, so maybe his offensive Xs/Os are better, but its pretty much a wash.

The difference is a) oscar's teams have been much better on defense, especially eFG% and TO%, and b) oscar has worked with more talent. That's probably why oscar has had better results. I agree that its simplistic to say that its because of "Xs/Os" or whatever.

I'm not arguing that Haith is better at x's and o's than oscar at all. I just think the statement of "Webs is a way better XandOer but won't ever build the talent up. Hadith has some pieces but no clue how to use them." is based on racism, and I don't like racism.

 

[quietstorm5]

I'm not racist at all, let alone self loathing enough to be racist against my own race!.. I just prefer facts and the reality is no matter how mediocre Weber is or may be, he is without question better than Haith. Neither has done anything great with their own players but one unquestioningly has on occassion risen above ordinary with his own players and almost always stays no worse that at average. The other, with his own players, has been average and never more than that with his own players. So one is just obviously better!

I think people are debating past one another.

Its hard to say if Haith is a better Xs and Os coach than oscar, and it probably depends what you mean. Haith's teams have overall been better offensively, so maybe his offensive Xs/Os are better, but its pretty much a wash.

The difference is a) oscar's teams have been much better on defense, especially eFG% and TO%, and b) oscar has worked with more talent. That's probably why oscar has had better results. I agree that its simplistic to say that its because of "Xs/Os" or whatever.

I'm not arguing that Haith is better at x's and o's than oscar at all. I just think the statement of "Webs is a way better XandOer but won't ever build the talent up. Hadith has some pieces but no clue how to use them." is based on racism, and I don't like racism.

[Stevesie60]

We will be good as long as we have Angel. We can expect to ride on the NIT bubble after he leaves, though.

We won't be good after Huggins leaves.
We won't be good after Beasley leaves.
We won't be good after Pullen leaves.
We won't be good after Frank leaves.
We won't be good after McGruder leaves.
We won't be good after Angel leaves.

[kso_FAN]

We will be good as long as we have Angel. We can expect to ride on the NIT bubble after he leaves, though.

We won't be good after Huggins leaves.
We won't be good after Beasley leaves.
We won't be good after Pullen leaves.
We won't be good after Frank leaves.
We won't be good after McGruder leaves.
We won't be good after Angel leaves.

Nicely done.

[pissclams]

i'm thinking we might just need a deuce master thread if this crap keeps up.  i can't wake up every day seeing another one of his dumb rough ridin' threads on this board.

I'm sorry that I'm trying to be an active participant on this board, I could see how that might upset you. Other people seem to be at least tolerating the threads, so maybe you should offer up a splif to the crisp Kansas air and just relax a bit.

just quit being so Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and we should be all set.  big thanks to the aptly named deuce.

[cork_sniffer]

i think what was impressive about Haith last year was that he did it by modifying the way he played considerably.  Weber is running the same stuff he always has from what I can tell. 

[pissclams]

i think what was impressive about Haith last year was that he did it by modifying the way he played considerably.  Weber is running the same stuff he always has from what I can tell. 

haith ran anderson's offense last year with anderson's players

[cork_sniffer]

i think what was impressive about Haith last year was that he did it by modifying the way he played considerably.  Weber is running the same stuff he always has from what I can tell. 

haith ran anderson's offense last year with anderson's players

well he had to run 4 out because of english playing the 4.  Whatever he did offensively it was better than anything Anderson ever put together or coached. 

[pissclams]

i think what was impressive about Haith last year was that he did it by modifying the way he played considerably.  Weber is running the same stuff he always has from what I can tell. 

haith ran anderson's offense last year with anderson's players

well he had to run 4 out because of english playing the 4.  Whatever he did offensively it was better than anything Anderson ever put together or coached. 

no, it was pretty much exactly the same on offense.  the difference was that haith didn't press as much as anderson and his 40 minutes of lame.

[kso_FAN]

I think we'd all agree that as far as we can tell, last year was Haith's aberration season. His career is filled with 20ish-10ish bubble teams and he managed one 7 seed in his career before last year's 2 seed first round exit. I'll give him some credit for having one of the top 5 shooting teams (58% eFG% is insane) of the last decade, but his career (outside of one season) is slightly better than Doc Sadler's.

[8manpick]

I'm not racist at all, let alone self loathing enough to be racist against my own race!.. I just prefer facts and the reality is no matter how mediocre Weber is or may be, he is without question better than Haith. Neither has done anything great with their own players but one unquestioningly has on occassion risen above ordinary with his own players and almost always stays no worse that at average. The other, with his own players, has been average and never more than that with his own players. So one is just obviously better!

I think people are debating past one another.

Its hard to say if Haith is a better Xs and Os coach than oscar, and it probably depends what you mean. Haith's teams have overall been better offensively, so maybe his offensive Xs/Os are better, but its pretty much a wash.

The difference is a) oscar's teams have been much better on defense, especially eFG% and TO%, and b) oscar has worked with more talent. That's probably why oscar has had better results. I agree that its simplistic to say that its because of "Xs/Os" or whatever.

I'm not arguing that Haith is better at x's and o's than oscar at all. I just think the statement of "Webs is a way better XandOer but won't ever build the talent up. Hadith has some pieces but no clue how to use them." is based on racism, and I don't like racism.

You should follow the example of literally every single other person on this board and type your reply below the quoted text instead of above because it flows much nicer that way. TIA.

[cork_sniffer]

i think what was impressive about Haith last year was that he did it by modifying the way he played considerably.  Weber is running the same stuff he always has from what I can tell. 

haith ran anderson's offense last year with anderson's players

well he had to run 4 out because of english playing the 4.  Whatever he did offensively it was better than anything Anderson ever put together or coached. 

no, it was pretty much exactly the same on offense.  the difference was that haith didn't press as much as anderson and his 40 minutes of lame.

yeah, my point was that he had more success with it than anderson. 

[SchylerThomas]

We will be good as long as we have Angel. We can expect to ride on the NIT bubble after he leaves, though.

We won't be good after Huggins leaves.
We won't be good after Beasley leaves.
We won't be good after Pullen leaves.
We won't be good after Frank leaves.
We won't be good after McGruder leaves.
We won't be good after Angel leaves.

Just for comparison sake, an earlier version:

We will be fine without Lon
We will be better without Dana
We will be fine without Ski and Beane
See, Tom will turn out great
We will be fine without Hatcher and Davis
Tom was the problem, Wooly will turn things around

You're always that close to two decades of obscurity.

[pissclams]

that's a good point, cork.  just by looking at their respective records and accomplishments at MU, i wouldn't have gotten there.

 

[catzacker]

"Better Xs and Os coach" usually means "I prefer Coach A's system/coaching". JMHO

Sometimes it means "black people aren't as smart as white people"

I think it’s based in this – it’s kind of a combination of (1)  being a white coach that (2) worked his way up through the Missouri Valley (ie Mid Major) and (3) runs an “old school-ish” offense (one that “coaches” just love because it makes them feel like their job is really important).   For example, McDermott was a “good x’s and o’s” coach.  You never hear that about Shaka Smart though – I think he’s just a “good recruiter”.