Farmers help a brotha out

[MakeItRain]

So I was looking for info on the farm bill and I came upon this.

http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/new-years-day-farm-bill-disappointing-0355.html

I really didn't feel like clicking 8 more links to get to the root of these people's beef.  Are they pissed at the lack of incentives for "organic" farmers?

[Rage Against the McKee]

So I was looking for info on the farm bill and I came upon this.

http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/new-years-day-farm-bill-disappointing-0355.html

I really didn't feel like clicking 8 more links to get to the root of these people's beef.  Are they pissed at the lack of incentives for "organic" farmers?

I don't think the Union of Concerned Scientists consists of very many farmers. I haven't really read over the new farm bill, but I don't really have a problem with any of the concerns laid out in the linked article. I think the government should subsidize ag to maximize production of commodities and conserve water and soil to ensure we continue to have the cheapest food in the world. That doesn't really include subsidies for organic foods.

[felix rex]

Most farmers I know think organic is pretty much a scam run on dumb city folk.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Most farmers I know think organic is pretty much a scam run on dumb city folk.

I haven't really seen any literature that suggests it's not.

[06wildcat]

So I was looking for info on the farm bill and I came upon this.

http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/new-years-day-farm-bill-disappointing-0355.html

I really didn't feel like clicking 8 more links to get to the root of these people's beef.  Are they pissed at the lack of incentives for "organic" farmers?

I don't think the Union of Concerned Scientists consists of very many farmers. I haven't really read over the new farm bill, but I don't really have a problem with any of the concerns laid out in the linked article. I think the government should subsidize ag to maximize production of commodities and conserve water and soil to ensure we continue to have the cheapest food in the world. That doesn't really include subsidies for organic foods.

You can have the first or the second two, you can't have both.

[Rage Against the McKee]

So I was looking for info on the farm bill and I came upon this.

http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/new-years-day-farm-bill-disappointing-0355.html

I really didn't feel like clicking 8 more links to get to the root of these people's beef.  Are they pissed at the lack of incentives for "organic" farmers?

I don't think the Union of Concerned Scientists consists of very many farmers. I haven't really read over the new farm bill, but I don't really have a problem with any of the concerns laid out in the linked article. I think the government should subsidize ag to maximize production of commodities and conserve water and soil to ensure we continue to have the cheapest food in the world. That doesn't really include subsidies for organic foods.

You can have the first or the second two, you can't have both.

Sure you can.

[slobber]

Most farmers I know think organic is pretty much a scam run on dumb city folk.

Yes to this. Most farmers don't mind farmers choosing to make money by growing organic for a certain % of the population. What most farmers hate is when those organic farmers try to sell organic as the be all end all of the world's food/health problems. If we have people starving throughout the world, does it really make sense to produce 40% less food (on average) by growing organic? Additionally, the idea of healthy foods is wonderful and that is what the organic community preaches, however, they really don't have anything to back that message up. It is certainly a feel good message, but it is without a scientific backing.

[CNS]

Yeah "organic" seems like the same thing as saying something is "green".  I mean, you could make up pretty much any bullshit about something and call it green.

I heard a radio bit on organic stuff this year.  They said that it is allowable to use pesticides, for example, as long as the pesticides only use natural occurring stuff.  They then went on to talk about what kind of stuff is naturally occurring and how it can be as bad or worse in certain circumstances as non-organic pesticides.  It all seems ridiculous to me until they better define it.

[slobber]

Yeah "organic" seems like the same thing as saying something is "green".  I mean, you could make up pretty much any bullshit about something and call it green.

I heard a radio bit on organic stuff this year.  They said that it is allowable to use pesticides, for example, as long as the pesticides only use natural occurring stuff.  They then went on to talk about what kind of stuff is naturally occurring and how it can be as bad or worse in certain circumstances as non-organic pesticides.  It all seems ridiculous to me until they better define it.

What you say there is true, but it goes further than that. If there is no "organic" way to control a pest (disease, weed, insect), then the organic growers petition to allow a synthetic chemical to be allowed.

[michigancat]

Yeah "organic" seems like the same thing as saying something is "green".  I mean, you could make up pretty much any bullshit about something and call it green.

There is a certification program for calling something organic. You can't do what you described (legally).

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?navid=ORGANIC_CERTIFICATIO

And there are some fruits and vegetables where organic is a positive, and others where it's not. Like, for apples, organic is better. Oranges not so much.

[slobber]

Here is a great short read: http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html

That's from a pretty liberal source. I'd post a bunch more information, but if you really give a crap, you'll actually do your own research, which is pretty much my stated philosophy on any controversial topic as it relates to bbs'n.

[CNS]

Yeah "organic" seems like the same thing as saying something is "green".  I mean, you could make up pretty much any bullshit about something and call it green.

There is a certification program for calling something organic. You can't do what you described (legally).

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?navid=ORGANIC_CERTIFICATIO

And there are some fruits and vegetables where organic is a positive, and others where it's not. Like, for apples, organic is better. Oranges not so much.

I am by far not an expert, but the NPR interview wasn't just with some hick that sold cabbage at the local farmer's market.  It was some guy in the industry that said it is a valid and allowable practice.  I don't remember exactly when the interview was, or I would find it on their website.  He essentially said that the given regs leave a lot of room to wiggle into something that isn't what you or I think it would be when buying something labeled as organic. 

[Cire]

MILK IS GOING TO BE 9 DOLLARS A GALLON!

[Stupid Fitz]

Not sure on the organic stuff, but it does make a bit of sense to limit the amount of Roundup in your diet if you can. 

[slobber]

Not sure on the organic stuff, but it does make a bit of sense to limit the amount of Roundup in your diet if you can.

Stupid argument.
The point is that there are actually things that are far worse than Roundup (which is a horrible example) sprayed on organic foods. Most people think like you and think, "Organic" = safe to eat. "Not organic" = will kill you.

Do you like bleach? Should you 'limit the amount in your diet'?

[felix rex]

Oh man. Next lets do a GMO thread.

[06wildcat]

So I was looking for info on the farm bill and I came upon this.

http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/new-years-day-farm-bill-disappointing-0355.html

I really didn't feel like clicking 8 more links to get to the root of these people's beef.  Are they pissed at the lack of incentives for "organic" farmers?

I don't think the Union of Concerned Scientists consists of very many farmers. I haven't really read over the new farm bill, but I don't really have a problem with any of the concerns laid out in the linked article. I think the government should subsidize ag to maximize production of commodities and conserve water and soil to ensure we continue to have the cheapest food in the world. That doesn't really include subsidies for organic foods.

You can have the first or the second two, you can't have both.

Sure you can.

I suppose its possible. Not with the commodity crops grown in the U.S. but I suppose it's possible.

[Rage Against the McKee]

So I was looking for info on the farm bill and I came upon this.

http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/new-years-day-farm-bill-disappointing-0355.html

I really didn't feel like clicking 8 more links to get to the root of these people's beef.  Are they pissed at the lack of incentives for "organic" farmers?

I don't think the Union of Concerned Scientists consists of very many farmers. I haven't really read over the new farm bill, but I don't really have a problem with any of the concerns laid out in the linked article. I think the government should subsidize ag to maximize production of commodities and conserve water and soil to ensure we continue to have the cheapest food in the world. That doesn't really include subsidies for organic foods.

You can have the first or the second two, you can't have both.

Sure you can.

I suppose its possible. Not with the commodity crops grown in the U.S. but I suppose it's possible.

Compare an irrigated corn field in 1960 to an irrigated field in 2012 and you will find that the 2012 field has double the production using less water, with less soil erosion.

[Stupid Fitz]

Not sure on the organic stuff, but it does make a bit of sense to limit the amount of Roundup in your diet if you can.

Stupid argument.
The point is that there are actually things that are far worse than Roundup (which is a horrible example) sprayed on organic foods. Most people think like you and think, "Organic" = safe to eat. "Not organic" = will kill you.

Do you like bleach? Should you 'limit the amount in your diet'?

Why is it a stupid argument?  No, I don't like bleach on my food either. I don't eat a ton of organics, but it is also a stupid argument to discuss which type of poison is worse for you.

[slobber]

Not sure on the organic stuff, but it does make a bit of sense to limit the amount of Roundup in your diet if you can.

Stupid argument.
The point is that there are actually things that are far worse than Roundup (which is a horrible example) sprayed on organic foods. Most people think like you and think, "Organic" = safe to eat. "Not organic" = will kill you.

Do you like bleach? Should you 'limit the amount in your diet'?

Why is it a stupid argument?  No, I don't like bleach on my food either. I don't eat a ton of organics, but it is also a stupid argument to discuss which type of poison is worse for you.

You should limit the amount of anything that could kill you. Roundup is about as harmless as dish soap. I get pissy on this subject. Sorry for being pissy. Anything that anyone says that makes it sound like organic food is better for you sets me off because most people are stupid on the subject and their research includes going to a pro-organic website and signing up for a weekly emails.

[michigancat]

Yeah "organic" seems like the same thing as saying something is "green".  I mean, you could make up pretty much any bullshit about something and call it green.

There is a certification program for calling something organic. You can't do what you described (legally).

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?navid=ORGANIC_CERTIFICATIO

And there are some fruits and vegetables where organic is a positive, and others where it's not. Like, for apples, organic is better. Oranges not so much.

I am by far not an expert, but the NPR interview wasn't just with some hick that sold cabbage at the local farmer's market.  It was some guy in the industry that said it is a valid and allowable practice.  I don't remember exactly when the interview was, or I would find it on their website.  He essentially said that the given regs leave a lot of room to wiggle into something that isn't what you or I think it would be when buying something labeled as organic. 

Yeah, but you can't legally just call something "organic" like you can "green". A better comparison than "green" would be "LEED certified". Yeah, there are some workarounds that may not all clearly be the best thing for the environment to make a building LEED certified, but you can't just call it LEED certified.



Also, I know lots of farmers that hate organic because they act like people will make them grow organic crops, which is pretty LOL. I really don't get the hate. If people want to pay a premium for organic food and farmers are willing to produce it, let them.

Also pretty LOL for farmers to claim to worry about feeding the world, when our ridiculous ag subsidies and policies completely undercut the ability of much of the third world to compete in the market and feed themselves.

[slobber]

Yeah, but you can't legally just call something "organic" like you can "green". A better comparison than "green" would be "LEED certified". Yeah, there are some workarounds that may not all clearly be the best thing for the environment to make a building LEED certified, but you can't just call it LEED certified.

Also, I know lots of farmers that hate organic because they act like people will make them grow organic crops, which is pretty LOL. I really don't get the hate. If people want to pay a premium for organic food and farmers are willing to produce it, let them.

Also pretty LOL for farmers to claim to worry about feeding the world, when our ridiculous ag subsidies and policies completely undercut the ability of much of the third world to compete in the market and feed themselves.

I am not anti-organic in that if somebody wants to buy, farmers will grow it. That is great. I am anti-organic when it comes to the message that most organic types try to spread.

[felix rex]

Yeah "organic" seems like the same thing as saying something is "green".  I mean, you could make up pretty much any bullshit about something and call it green.

There is a certification program for calling something organic. You can't do what you described (legally).

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?navid=ORGANIC_CERTIFICATIO

And there are some fruits and vegetables where organic is a positive, and others where it's not. Like, for apples, organic is better. Oranges not so much.

I am by far not an expert, but the NPR interview wasn't just with some hick that sold cabbage at the local farmer's market.  It was some guy in the industry that said it is a valid and allowable practice.  I don't remember exactly when the interview was, or I would find it on their website.  He essentially said that the given regs leave a lot of room to wiggle into something that isn't what you or I think it would be when buying something labeled as organic. 

Yeah, but you can't legally just call something "organic" like you can "green". A better comparison than "green" would be "LEED certified". Yeah, there are some workarounds that may not all clearly be the best thing for the environment to make a building LEED certified, but you can't just call it LEED certified.



Also, I know lots of farmers that hate organic because they act like people will make them grow organic crops, which is pretty LOL. I really don't get the hate. If people want to pay a premium for organic food and farmers are willing to produce it, let them.

Also pretty LOL for farmers to claim to worry about feeding the world, when our ridiculous ag subsidies and policies completely undercut the ability of much of the third world to compete in the market and feed themselves.

1st paragraph: agreed, much better analogy. The problem isn't that there's zero regulation, it's that consumers drastically overestimate the level of regulation and what it means.

2nd paragraph: never heard that but I can believe they say it and that's hilarious.

3rd paragraph: GMOs in Africa are a sticking point.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Also pretty LOL for farmers to claim to worry about feeding the world, when our ridiculous ag subsidies and policies completely undercut the ability of much of the third world to compete in the market and feed themselves.

This is true, but I wouldn't call those subsidies ridiculous. There is a huge strategic advantage to the United States subsidizing agriculture the way we do. Undercutting prices ensures that we supply food to most of the world. It's great for national security because we do not have to import much food and other nations do not want to see their cheap US food go away. Americans also pay next to nothing for food compared to most of the world, largely as a result of those ag subsidies.

[felix rex]

We shouldn't subsidize to the point of keeping bad farmers in business, though. Agree on the strategic advantage part.