Author Topic: Another school shooting  (Read 493042 times)

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Offline Cire

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1025 on: December 18, 2012, 10:10:44 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/opinion/bergen-guns-national-security/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

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- The proliferation of semiautomatic weapons in the hands of Americans of the types that were used in the Newtown massacre is sometimes framed as a public health issue in the United States.

There is considerable merit to the notion of treating gun violence as a public health matter. After all, homicides -- around 70% of which are accomplished with firearms in the United States according to an authoritative study by the United Nations -- are the 15th leading cause of death for Americans.

Online Stupid Fitz

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Offline Institutional Control

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1027 on: December 18, 2012, 11:23:26 AM »
http://theweek.com/article/index/237955/the-connecticut-school-massacre-how-the-world-sees-us

The Connecticut school massacre: How the world sees us
By Ryu Spaeth | The Week – 6 hrs ago
 
Coverage of the school massacre in Newtown, Connecticut, was splashed across newspaper front pages around the world, a testament to the universal horror of a tragedy in which 20 children, all of them ages 6 and 7, were killed in their classrooms by a lone gunman. There was an outpouring of sympathy from the international community, which was inevitably followed by utter bewilderment at America's continued obsession with lethal weapons.
 
The U.S. is home to 270 million privately held guns, which equates to an average of nine guns per 10 people. (In second place, with roughly 1 gun for every two people, is Yemen, "a conflict-torn Arab nation still dealing with poverty, political unrest, a separatist Shia urgency, an al Qaeda branch, and the aftereffects of a 1994 civil war," notes Max Fisher at The Washington Post.) It is no coincidence that the U.S. also boasts the highest rate of gun-related deaths among developed countries — an American is 20 times more likely to die at the hands of a gun then another member of the developed world. Here, some reactions from around the world:
 
Canada's The Globe and Mail:
There is something inexorable about the phenomenon of mass shootings in the United States. We have been forced to write about it with tragic regularity for years. We have exhausted adjectives to describe our horror and revulsion. We have stated and restated the problem…
The time for platitudes is past, Mr. President. It’s time the U.S. cured its gun sickness.
 
Britain's The Guardian:
The final difference is in many ways the most destructive of all. This is America's sheer difficulty in conducting any kind of rational collective conversation about gun control. In any other country, a shooting spree of the sort that took place in Newtown would set off a serious public debate. That's what happened after Dunblane in the U.K., after Port Arthur in Australia, and after [Anders] Breivik's killings in Norway. Nothing like this is now possible in the polarized gun culture of America, where law and politics have been unable to respond to such events for at least 20 years. That is why President Obama's very mild call this weekend for "meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this," was regarded as so unusual...
Mad men with guns will always be a danger, whatever the gun laws. But modern America still seems to lack the will to make even modest regulatory changes, let alone to confront a real and growing danger to the health and survival of significant numbers of its young people.
 
Briain Masters at Britain's The Telegraph:
In Arizona, where the attempted assassination of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and the slaughter of six others took place last year, almost anyone can have a permit to carry a concealed weapon and be allowed to take guns into a bar (where presumably they are going to drink something more potent than lemonade); that same state's legislators have talked about passing laws permitting teachers and students to carry their guns to school with them. Such is the contagion of madness.
 
Germany's Die Tageszeitung:
Beyond the individual state of the killer, the U.S. has a national pathology. The legality of gun ownership is a matter of course in the U.S., more so than anywhere else in the world. In 2012, some 270 million firearms were in private ownership. Every year, (thousands of) people are killed with them. In most states it's easier to get a firearm than a driver's license.
This madness can only — if at all — be stopped in moments like this one. Against the tragic backdrop of 20 murdered children. And of a president like Barack Obama who has just won an election. The right wing has been pushed back a little, the public is appalled by the massacre.
 
Germany's Süddeutsche Zeitung:
President Obama's "never again" are little more than plaintive words. He's trying to provide comfort, but he certainly isn't promising any improvement. During Obama's first term, more than 40,000 of his compatriots died in a hail of bullets. One out of 10 of these victims was under the age of 18. He never even had the courage to at least come up with stronger laws to take some of the deadliest weapons out of the hands of civilians. Viewed in political terms, that is at least equivalent to the crime of failing to assist a person in danger. Obama points to the constitutionally protected right for US citizens to possess weapons. In reality, however, he is wary of a battle with the Republicans and the gun lobby. Their opposition to almost any kind of gun control borders on political complicity in murder and manslaughter...
[T]here is no place in Western Europe where violence from gun barrels rampages in the way it does in the United States.
 
Germany's Stuttgarter Zeitung:
Nowhere else in the world are so many weapons in circulation as in the US. In no other country are citizens as well armed. The U.S. Constitution guarantees every American the right to move about in public as though he or she is John Wayne in person. One can see it as a national tradition. But this martial approach to liberty is also a relic of the past and one that is out of step with the times. Every 20 minutes, a U.S. citizen is murdered by a firearm. American schoolchildren are killed by bullets 10 times more often than in comparable industrialized countries. Such numbers speak for themselves.
 
Anne Davies at Australia's Sydney Morning Herald:
To Australians it seems incredible that U.S. politicians will not move to control guns. It seems illogical in the face of global statistics and our own experience of the success of the gun amnesty.
[T]he bigger task for American is to become a gentler, more trusting society, so that school children do not have to be drilled in cowering in store rooms.
 
Chemi Shalev at Israel's Haaretz:
"God takes pity on the kindergarten children" poet Yehuda Amichai wrote bitterly of a country in which it is the grownups," often Israeli soldiers, who are forced to pay the price. In America, God has no favorites: He allows even tiny angels to be massacred in a crazed and senselessly obsessed outburst of a lone gunman, armed to the teeth.
Perhaps, when President Barack Obama was shedding a tear, he grieved not only as a parent who thinks of his own children but also as a president who cries for his beloved country. These unthinkable but nonetheless recurring bloodbaths by shooting are peculiarly, if not exclusively, American, a stain on its image that gets brutally bigger as time goes by.
 
Tzipi Shmilovitz at Israel's Yedioth Ahronoth:
America is not ready to talk about how it is easier to get a handgun than it is to see a doctor, not ready to speak about the video games that have extreme violence. It is just willing to sweep up everything under the carpet of tears.
 
Peter Hellyer at the United Arab Emirates' The National:
How fortunate we are that in the United Arab Emirates such an event would appear to be almost inconceivable. Long may that remain so…
In the U.A.E., with about 8 million people, an equivalent rate would be 222 gun-related deaths annually. Yet so far this year, as far as I can see, there's been one — and that was either a suicide or an accident.
 
India's The Times of India:
For those griping about the American right to bear arms, wake up. This is the 21st century and America's a settled state, not the rough-edged, wide open spaces of the 1780s when the Constitution was framed and everything, from land to liberty, was based on violent contests. Bearing arms then might have made sense — doing so today is swallowing the nonsense posed as liberty by commercial lobbies. Some argue weapons empower victims against aggressors. If so, should second-graders pack pistols in their schoolbags? Such shaky logic simply intensifies dangerous situations.

Offline theKSU

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1028 on: December 18, 2012, 12:11:48 PM »
Heard a discussion of this AR-15 this morning.  It's designed for the express purpose of being able to kill as many people in a military situation as possible.  Yet we allow anyone to buy them.

These things are gonna be banned, but how do we get the ones out there off the street?

Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1029 on: December 18, 2012, 12:23:07 PM »
These are all people that would have been institutionalized 40-50 years ago.

Its estimated that up to 50% of the entire prison population suffers from at least one diagnosable mental illness.

The answer simply isn't to re-institutionalize those who manage to avoid prison. It's to look at the reason why taking them out of the institutions in the first place hasn't worked. One reason (and you'll never agree with me) is that for-profit health insurance companies refuse to cover mental illness and if they do only cover treatment for a couple days at a time. Leaving parents or other family on their own to deal with the issue using a patchwork of public services and support groups in the community.

This is just one of about 5 reasons why it hasn't worked.

We should stop assuming things about each other - I would never want to re-institutionalize anyone with mental disorders and I'm very educated on the subject.  I have family by marriage that suffers from schizophrenia and I would never condemn her to an asylum.  She is able to be a productive member of society and you are 100% correct; it is left to the parents & family to deal with these issues and there is no help from anyone beyond "Take this pill and everything will be okay"

Well it's pretty damned hard to convince a schizophrenic with paranoid delusions to take pills. Now I'll admit, dealing with schizophrenia is an extreme case - but there are loads of illnesses out there that get no support from anyone beyond family members.   Changing this one thing has been the common theme in my entire approach to these debates from day 1.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1030 on: December 18, 2012, 12:33:59 PM »
Heard a discussion of this AR-15 this morning.  It's designed for the express purpose of being able to kill as many people in a military situation as possible.  Yet we allow anyone to buy them.

These things are gonna be banned, but how do we get the ones out there off the street?

Ban their resale and trade between two parties. Current assault rifles must be registered. If you own an unregistered assault rifle you are put in jail. If an unregistered assault rifle is used during a crime it is an automatic double length sentence, murder automatic life with no parole. Offer a trade in program were people can trade in there assault rifles for cash.
RIP Fatty

Offline Cire

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1031 on: December 18, 2012, 12:35:32 PM »
Heard a discussion of this AR-15 this morning.  It's designed for the express purpose of being able to kill as many people in a military situation as possible.  Yet we allow anyone to buy them.

These things are gonna be banned, but how do we get the ones out there off the street?

Ban their resale and trade between two parties. Current assault rifles must be registered. If you own an unregistered assault rifle you are put in jail. If an unregistered assault rifle is used during a crime it is an automatic double length sentence, murder automatic life with no parole. Offer a trade in program were people can trade in there assault rifles for cash.

would be the only reasonable way.  They won't come looking for them but if you commit a crime etc and are found to have one its gone.

Offline EllRobersonisInnocent

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1032 on: December 18, 2012, 12:52:00 PM »
Great link CFoD

Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1033 on: December 18, 2012, 01:06:44 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/18/nra-to-push-back-soon-sources-say/

Good step.

Quote
Feinstein said her legislation will outlaw the sale, import and manufacture of more than 100 different firearms, including "semiautomatic rifles, handguns and shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than ten rounds."

The measure would also ban the sale, import and manufacture of "large-capacity ammunition feeding devices (magazines, strips and drums) capable of accepting more than ten rounds."

To protect legal gun owners, the Feinstein measure would "grandfather in" those weapons legally owned at the time the measure would become law. It would also exempt antiques, manually operated weapons, permanently disabled weapons, and more than 900 specifically named firearms commonly used for hunting and sporting.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/18/nra-to-push-back-soon-sources-say/#ixzz2FQq2813C

Now as for the NRA, you had a chance to take the high road years again and do this. This is reasonable legislation. If the NRA would have been smart they should have okay this instead of leading down the path were some want all guns banned.
RIP Fatty

Offline Cire

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1034 on: December 18, 2012, 01:08:43 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/18/nra-to-push-back-soon-sources-say/

Good step.

Quote
Feinstein said her legislation will outlaw the sale, import and manufacture of more than 100 different firearms, including "semiautomatic rifles, handguns and shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than ten rounds."

The measure would also ban the sale, import and manufacture of "large-capacity ammunition feeding devices (magazines, strips and drums) capable of accepting more than ten rounds."

To protect legal gun owners, the Feinstein measure would "grandfather in" those weapons legally owned at the time the measure would become law. It would also exempt antiques, manually operated weapons, permanently disabled weapons, and more than 900 specifically named firearms commonly used for hunting and sporting.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/18/nra-to-push-back-soon-sources-say/#ixzz2FQq2813C

Now as for the NRA, you had a chance to take the high road years again and do this. This is reasonable legislation. If the NRA would have been smart they should have okay this instead of leading down the path were some want all guns banned.

It's all or nothing politics,  if they start here where does it stop type thinking.

Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1035 on: December 18, 2012, 01:11:16 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/18/nra-to-push-back-soon-sources-say/

Good step.

Quote
Feinstein said her legislation will outlaw the sale, import and manufacture of more than 100 different firearms, including "semiautomatic rifles, handguns and shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than ten rounds."

The measure would also ban the sale, import and manufacture of "large-capacity ammunition feeding devices (magazines, strips and drums) capable of accepting more than ten rounds."

To protect legal gun owners, the Feinstein measure would "grandfather in" those weapons legally owned at the time the measure would become law. It would also exempt antiques, manually operated weapons, permanently disabled weapons, and more than 900 specifically named firearms commonly used for hunting and sporting.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/18/nra-to-push-back-soon-sources-say/#ixzz2FQq2813C

Now as for the NRA, you had a chance to take the high road years again and do this. This is reasonable legislation. If the NRA would have been smart they should have okay this instead of leading down the path were some want all guns banned.

It's all or nothing politics,  if they start here where does it stop type thinking.

It should not be. But that is were the NRA dropped the ball. By protecting all guns, they are leading us down the path of no guns. Same reason why a lot of animal rights people don't support PETA, because they just want too much.
RIP Fatty

Offline XocolateThundarr

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1036 on: December 18, 2012, 01:11:46 PM »
I'm curious as to how many of you guys actually own weapons and have ever fired one.
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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1037 on: December 18, 2012, 01:14:58 PM »
I'm curious as to how many of you guys actually own weapons and have ever fired one.

Yep
RIP Fatty

Offline 8manpick

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1038 on: December 18, 2012, 01:16:55 PM »
I'm curious as to how many of you guys actually own weapons and have ever fired one.

Me
:adios:

Offline Cire

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1039 on: December 18, 2012, 01:17:19 PM »
me

Offline CNS

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1040 on: December 18, 2012, 01:18:00 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/18/nra-to-push-back-soon-sources-say/

Good step.

Quote
Feinstein said her legislation will outlaw the sale, import and manufacture of more than 100 different firearms, including "semiautomatic rifles, handguns and shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than ten rounds."

The measure would also ban the sale, import and manufacture of "large-capacity ammunition feeding devices (magazines, strips and drums) capable of accepting more than ten rounds."

To protect legal gun owners, the Feinstein measure would "grandfather in" those weapons legally owned at the time the measure would become law. It would also exempt antiques, manually operated weapons, permanently disabled weapons, and more than 900 specifically named firearms commonly used for hunting and sporting.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/18/nra-to-push-back-soon-sources-say/#ixzz2FQq2813C

Now as for the NRA, you had a chance to take the high road years again and do this. This is reasonable legislation. If the NRA would have been smart they should have okay this instead of leading down the path were some want all guns banned.

10 rounds is too many.  I own weapons and have been using them since a child.  If you are trained to the level you should be to be able to own a gun and be confident that you could use it to protect your family in a high stress situation, then you don't need 10 freaking bullets. 

10 is what you ask for when you would settle for 6.  Need to get down to 6.

Offline Gooch

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1041 on: December 18, 2012, 01:19:52 PM »
Heard a discussion of this AR-15 this morning.  It's designed for the express purpose of being able to kill as many people in a military situation as possible.  Yet we allow anyone to buy them.

These things are gonna be banned, but how do we get the ones out there off the street?

Ban their resale and trade between two parties. Current assault rifles must be registered. If you own an unregistered assault rifle you are put in jail. If an unregistered assault rifle is used during a crime it is an automatic double length sentence, murder automatic life with no parole. Offer a trade in program were people can trade in there assault rifles for cash.
Good luck with all that.

Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1042 on: December 18, 2012, 01:24:23 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/18/nra-to-push-back-soon-sources-say/

Good step.

Quote
Feinstein said her legislation will outlaw the sale, import and manufacture of more than 100 different firearms, including "semiautomatic rifles, handguns and shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than ten rounds."

The measure would also ban the sale, import and manufacture of "large-capacity ammunition feeding devices (magazines, strips and drums) capable of accepting more than ten rounds."

To protect legal gun owners, the Feinstein measure would "grandfather in" those weapons legally owned at the time the measure would become law. It would also exempt antiques, manually operated weapons, permanently disabled weapons, and more than 900 specifically named firearms commonly used for hunting and sporting.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/18/nra-to-push-back-soon-sources-say/#ixzz2FQq2813C

Now as for the NRA, you had a chance to take the high road years again and do this. This is reasonable legislation. If the NRA would have been smart they should have okay this instead of leading down the path were some want all guns banned.

10 rounds is too many.  I own weapons and have been using them since a child.  If you are trained to the level you should be to be able to own a gun and be confident that you could use it to protect your family in a high stress situation, then you don't need 10 freaking bullets. 

10 is what you ask for when you would settle for 6.  Need to get down to 6.

Completely agree. 6 is enough for any gun. But at least something is on the table.
RIP Fatty

Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1043 on: December 18, 2012, 01:25:42 PM »
Heard a discussion of this AR-15 this morning.  It's designed for the express purpose of being able to kill as many people in a military situation as possible.  Yet we allow anyone to buy them.

These things are gonna be banned, but how do we get the ones out there off the street?

Ban their resale and trade between two parties. Current assault rifles must be registered. If you own an unregistered assault rifle you are put in jail. If an unregistered assault rifle is used during a crime it is an automatic double length sentence, murder automatic life with no parole. Offer a trade in program were people can trade in there assault rifles for cash.
Good luck with all that.

Don't need luck.  :gocho:
RIP Fatty

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1044 on: December 18, 2012, 01:48:08 PM »
America:

Approximately 60% of the world's arms trade is controlled by . . . the United States Government.   Yes, your U.S. Government is the biggest arms dealer . . . IN THE WORLD.

Engaged in multiple wars across the planet, with troops engaged in combat operations on multiple continents, all in the name of "security" and "fighting terrorism". 

American Television is filled with violence; the most popular shows feature violence and guns, gore and death on nearly every episode. 

American Movies are filled with guns, violence, gore, death and mayhem. 

Yes, the government/military/industrial/gaming/entertainment complex makes BILLIONS off of gun play and violence, and the U.S. kills people of the world by the thousands every single year with M-16's, Machine Guns, Tanks, Bombs, Cruise Missiles, Drones. . . you name it.   

But you, you law abiding citizens, we have to take your guns away . . . because some whacked out paranoid mom created a whacked out paranoid kid.   

Oh, and for you future law abiding victims of natural disasters who we cant get to for weeks or even months with electricity, supplies, governance and security . . . good luck defending yourselves from the evil people in this world. 


Offline puniraptor

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1045 on: December 18, 2012, 01:53:05 PM »
I'm curious as to how many of you guys actually own weapons and have ever fired one.

Me. I own guns and have actually been a shooting sports instructor for kids. But I can't help but find myself on the gun-ban anti-gun side of the argument.

Offline XocolateThundarr

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1046 on: December 18, 2012, 02:01:00 PM »
I'm curious as to how many of you guys actually own weapons and have ever fired one.

Me. I own guns and have actually been a shooting sports instructor for kids. But I can't help but find myself on the gun-ban anti-gun side of the argument.

That's interesting. 

@mikec2w

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1047 on: December 18, 2012, 02:15:16 PM »
America:

Approximately 60% of the world's arms trade is controlled by . . . the United States Government.   Yes, your U.S. Government is the biggest arms dealer . . . IN THE WORLD.

Engaged in multiple wars across the planet, with troops engaged in combat operations on multiple continents, all in the name of "security" and "fighting terrorism". 

American Television is filled with violence; the most popular shows feature violence and guns, gore and death on nearly every episode. 

American Movies are filled with guns, violence, gore, death and mayhem. 

Yes, the government/military/industrial/gaming/entertainment complex makes BILLIONS off of gun play and violence, and the U.S. kills people of the world by the thousands every single year with M-16's, Machine Guns, Tanks, Bombs, Cruise Missiles, Drones. . . you name it.   

But you, you law abiding citizens, we have to take your guns away . . . because some whacked out paranoid mom created a whacked out paranoid kid.   

Oh, and for you future law abiding victims of natural disasters who we cant get to for weeks or even months with electricity, supplies, governance and security . . . good luck defending yourselves from the evil people in this world.

What is your point?

Offline Institutional Control

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1048 on: December 18, 2012, 02:32:08 PM »
I'm curious as to how many of you guys actually own weapons and have ever fired one.

I grew up in a house with many guns. Got my first .22 for my 8th birthday. My first shotgun for my 12th. I liked hunting quail, dove and deer.  Sold all my guns when I moved to Texas 15 years ago. I live in the city, not many deer or game birds in town. I haven't fired a gun of any type in 10 years now.  When I inherit my dad's fairly sizable arsenal, I'll likely sell them.

Offline bubbles4ksu

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #1049 on: December 18, 2012, 02:43:15 PM »
I'm curious as to how many of you guys actually own weapons and have ever fired one.

i own a 870 wingmaster, 870 youth model, and a ruger 10/.22. i haven't shot any of them in the last four years. i would fall over myself to get them smelted in exchange for $100.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 02:46:58 PM by bubbles4ksu »