Another school shooting

[HeinBallz]

We have a couple of rules in our house:

No violent TV or movies when the kids are awake
No toy weapons of any kind

If someone gets our kids a toy gun, it's going back to the store.  We've got sports crap and fake musical instruments out the wazoo, but not a single weapon.

I applaud you panj -  I don't even have cable in my house.   We do have bb guns & airsoft guns at the grandparents and will eventually introduce them in our house.  They are only used for target practice towards inanimate objects and are taught as a tool of skill.   Neighbor kids are just the opposite, so we constantly preach to our children that a gun, whether toy or something capable of firing projectiles should NOT be aimed at anything you do not intend to eat.  He'll play with the neighbor kids and play out imaginary war scenes and it's something that does bother us.  We try to limit it and talk about it afterwards and hope he's constructively using it as a coping mechanism for understanding violence.  My son doesn't understand why the neighbor kids at the ages 4,7 & 10 can watch batman/predator/terminator and that's our biggest struggle.  We've recently introduced comic books in hopes that it will satisfy the natural boyish desires for violence.  Overall, it's been okay. But I constantly am getting pissed at the neighbor kids - but don't want to over react to it and make it taboo for my son.   We always have to tell him he can't spend the night at their house in fear of what they might watch.   Thankfully, we have some home school friends that are more in line with feelings towards violence & the TV babysitter as us - so he gets to spend the night with some friends at least.

Weren't you the guy that claimed his kid couldn't read well because his teacher was shitty?

Which is one of the reasons we decided to homeschool - but he's much better at reading now thank you.

[steve dave]

All I was saying is that most people learn to read before they go to school. It seems like you enjoy pointing the finger at others raising of their children a lot but when it hits home you are quick to pass the blame onto something outside your own home.

[HeinBallz]

I don't even know how to respond to that.  Did i say the kids next door are going to turn into mass killers?  All I inferred is that it's a growing problem and some children cannot handle that - just as my kid couldn't handle the structure and "do it or else" attitude in classrooms.  All kids develop at different speeds and I would wager most kids don't understand rocket propulsion and how electrical circuits work at 4, but mine did.  So he couldn't read in kindergarten - lots of kids aren't developmentally ready to do so at that age.  Some aren't ready to read in the first or second grade, and maybe treating kids like there's something wrong with them if they can't is another thing that causes them to shut off from society and label themselves "bad kids"

eff you for flaming and suggesting things you know absolutely nothing about.

[steve dave]

I don't even know how to respond to that.  Did i say the kids next door are going to turn into mass killers?  All I inferred is that it's a growing problem and some children cannot handle that - just as my kid couldn't handle the structure and "do it or else" attitude in classrooms.  All kids develop at different speeds and I would wager most kids don't understand rocket propulsion and how electrical circuits work at 4, but mine did.  So he couldn't read in kindergarten - lots of kids aren't developmentally ready to do so at that age.  Some aren't ready to read in the first or second grade, and maybe treating kids like there's something wrong with them if they can't is another thing that causes them to shut off from society and label themselves "bad kids"

eff you for flaming and suggesting things you know absolutely nothing about.

That wasn't flaming at all. I'm curious if your neighbor thinks it's flaming when you judge their kid's tv watching freedoms. I doubt they do. I'm guessing they just think you're weird.

[Dr Rick Daris]

there is way less gun violence in the united states today then there was forty years ago. you know why? less people own actual real guns. shocking i know, but it seems to be the case that when tons of people have real guns that can shoot people, you tend to have more people with real guns actually shooting people. video games? violent shows? good grief you guys. it's a great big world out there. maybe spend some time talking to your kids about what's real and what's not and what's appropriate and what isn't and less time running around trying to shelter your kids from them. use them as a teaching tool. a jumping off point for dialogue if you want. have an honest conversation instead of just throwing a blanket over their eyes.

[steve dave]

video games? violent shows? good grief you guys. it's a great big world out there. maybe spend some time talking to your kids about what's real and what's not and what's appropriate and what isn't and less time running around trying to shelter your kids from them. use them as a teaching tool. a jumping off point for dialogue if you want. have an honest conversation instead of just throwing a blanket over their eyes.

 

[Bloodfart]

But Rick Daris if the kids are exposed to such things it will warp their minds and there is nothing we as parents can do after that. 

[star seed 7]

hates cops, hates military, hates teachers.

loves guns.

something weird here.

[HeinBallz]

That wasn't flaming at all. I'm curious if your neighbor thinks it's flaming when you judge their kid's tv watching freedoms. I doubt they do. I'm guessing they just think you're weird.

I don’t know why you’re trying to derail the conversation from gun violence, but I’ll set the record straight so you can stop worrying about me.

 We pulled my kid out of school because he felt like a failure when he would get in trouble for not staying focused between tasks.  The teacher gave out worksheets/homework to kids in kindergarten and he was bored stiff filling out worksheets when he would rather have had hands on assignments – he would then get into trouble for not completing the work sheets because he’s the type of kid that questions authority when it’s hypocritical in nature. He went from a kid that wanted to know everything about everything to shutting down and withdrawing any time he felt like someone was trying to teach him anything.  He has reacquired the thirst for knowledge and again enjoys learning.  He reads at a level that is developmentally appropriate for his age – as a 1st grader – but his lack of reading before was not because his teacher was incapable of teaching him and we never believed that was the case; we felt she was a shitty teacher because the experience completely extinguished our sons desire to learn and make a rather bright kid feel stupid.  He was not an isolated case, more than one kid was either pulled from her class or began homeschooling.   Her 2nd year in, she is still developing this reputation.

Second of all – never in my life have I ever said anything judgmental in the presence of our neighbors for the way they raise their kids;  and they have no reason to think I judge their parenting abilities.  Our kids still play together and I’ve never attempt to “correct” my kid or theirs while they are doing so – not that “correcting” a kid is anything I would ever do. They may be able to get away with watching violent movies, but we cannot do that.  I was explaining the difficulties of raising a kid in an environment with limited exposure to violence.  I’m sure my neighbors do think I’m weird; but they think anyone is weird that doesn’t enjoy NASCAR and spend every penny they make on exotic birds & fish. 

If you have a counterpoint to violence on TV & video games and parents using TV & videogames as a babysitter, and how it may or may not affect violent tendencies when they grow up, I suggest you make it.  But personal attacks do not further this debate and only make you look like a tool.

[HeinBallz]

video games? violent shows? good grief you guys. it's a great big world out there. maybe spend some time talking to your kids about what's real and what's not and what's appropriate and what isn't and less time running around trying to shelter your kids from them. use them as a teaching tool. a jumping off point for dialogue if you want. have an honest conversation instead of just throwing a blanket over their eyes.

Agree entirely - the point I was making is some parents DO NOT talk to their kids about violent films and some kids develop a closer personal relationship with fictional characters than they do their own parents.  Maybe the correlation to mass shootings & more violent TV is a reflection of a symptom to the larger problem. People that go on shooting rampages probably never had any positive influence in their life that wasn't on a TV or video game.   You're suggesting that until people can become better parents we should not enjoy the pleasure's of shooting or owning a gun.  I'm suggesting that until people become better parents, we should limit the violence on TV.  You not wanting to let go of violent TV is just as absurd as me not wanting to let go of guns. 

[star seed 7]

please link where a dude walked into a school and killed 20 kids with dvd's.

[HeinBallz]

hates cops, hates military, hates teachers. people that try to compensate for their insecurity by putting themselves in a place of authority - then pushes people around to make themselves feel better.

loves guns.

something weird here.

FYP

[steve dave]

That wasn't flaming at all. I'm curious if your neighbor thinks it's flaming when you judge their kid's tv watching freedoms. I doubt they do. I'm guessing they just think you're weird.

I don’t know why you’re trying to derail the conversation from gun violence, but I’ll set the record straight so you can stop worrying about me.

 We pulled my kid out of school because he felt like a failure when he would get in trouble for not staying focused between tasks.  The teacher gave out worksheets/homework to kids in kindergarten and he was bored stiff filling out worksheets when he would rather have had hands on assignments – he would then get into trouble for not completing the work sheets because he’s the type of kid that questions authority when it’s hypocritical in nature. He went from a kid that wanted to know everything about everything to shutting down and withdrawing any time he felt like someone was trying to teach him anything.  He has reacquired the thirst for knowledge and again enjoys learning.  He reads at a level that is developmentally appropriate for his age – as a 1st grader – but his lack of reading before was not because his teacher was incapable of teaching him and we never believed that was the case; we felt she was a shitty teacher because the experience completely extinguished our sons desire to learn and make a rather bright kid feel stupid.  He was not an isolated case, more than one kid was either pulled from her class or began homeschooling.   Her 2nd year in, she is still developing this reputation.

Second of all – never in my life have I ever said anything judgmental in the presence of our neighbors for the way they raise their kids;  and they have no reason to think I judge their parenting abilities.  Our kids still play together and I’ve never attempt to “correct” my kid or theirs while they are doing so – not that “correcting” a kid is anything I would ever do. They may be able to get away with watching violent movies, but we cannot do that.  I was explaining the difficulties of raising a kid in an environment with limited exposure to violence.  I’m sure my neighbors do think I’m weird; but they think anyone is weird that doesn’t enjoy NASCAR and spend every penny they make on exotic birds & fish. 

If you have a counterpoint to violence on TV & video games and parents using TV & videogames as a babysitter, and how it may or may not affect violent tendencies when they grow up, I suggest you make it.  But personal attacks do not further this debate and only make you look like a tool.

I know, you've been saying this entire thread that it's parenting and our society that is the problem, I was just pointing out that you are quick to judge perceived parenting failures but seem to have excuses that are completely outside of your control when it comes to your own children. it was the furthest thing from an attack. did the neighbors tell you what their kids watch? I'm guessing you heard that from your kid. I can assure you that your neighbor hears the same stuff from their kids in relation to your parenting.

[HeinBallz]

That wasn't flaming at all. I'm curious if your neighbor thinks it's flaming when you judge their kid's tv watching freedoms. I doubt they do. I'm guessing they just think you're weird.

I don’t know why you’re trying to derail the conversation from gun violence, but I’ll set the record straight so you can stop worrying about me.

 We pulled my kid out of school because he felt like a failure when he would get in trouble for not staying focused between tasks.  The teacher gave out worksheets/homework to kids in kindergarten and he was bored stiff filling out worksheets when he would rather have had hands on assignments – he would then get into trouble for not completing the work sheets because he’s the type of kid that questions authority when it’s hypocritical in nature. He went from a kid that wanted to know everything about everything to shutting down and withdrawing any time he felt like someone was trying to teach him anything.  He has reacquired the thirst for knowledge and again enjoys learning.  He reads at a level that is developmentally appropriate for his age – as a 1st grader – but his lack of reading before was not because his teacher was incapable of teaching him and we never believed that was the case; we felt she was a shitty teacher because the experience completely extinguished our sons desire to learn and make a rather bright kid feel stupid.  He was not an isolated case, more than one kid was either pulled from her class or began homeschooling.   Her 2nd year in, she is still developing this reputation.

Second of all – never in my life have I ever said anything judgmental in the presence of our neighbors for the way they raise their kids;  and they have no reason to think I judge their parenting abilities.  Our kids still play together and I’ve never attempt to “correct” my kid or theirs while they are doing so – not that “correcting” a kid is anything I would ever do. They may be able to get away with watching violent movies, but we cannot do that.  I was explaining the difficulties of raising a kid in an environment with limited exposure to violence.  I’m sure my neighbors do think I’m weird; but they think anyone is weird that doesn’t enjoy NASCAR and spend every penny they make on exotic birds & fish. 

If you have a counterpoint to violence on TV & video games and parents using TV & videogames as a babysitter, and how it may or may not affect violent tendencies when they grow up, I suggest you make it.  But personal attacks do not further this debate and only make you look like a tool.

I know, you've been saying this entire thread that it's parenting and our society that is the problem, I was just pointing out that you are quick to judge your perceived parenting failures but seem to have excuses that are completely outside of your control when it comes to your own children. it was the furthest thing from an attack.

I'm sorry I perceived it as a personal attack.  I know I make mistakes as a parent, and I have never made an excuse for those failures -  so I don't see any of your questioning of how my principles and morals as a parent relate to this discussion.  Defending your own hypocrisy by pointing it out in others does erase your failures.

But back to the actual discussion, I am shocked that people aren't just as disturbed by all violence - and only want to talk about gun violence.  The very thought that gun violence is the only pertinent discussion allowed by the "get rid of guns" people, to me points out the bigger problem. 

[star seed 7]

because guns are the natural place to start.  get rid of them, and then we'll see what we need to do next.

stop acting like people think getting rid of guns is going to magically cure all of the countries problems and nothing else will need to be done.

dragging your feet on this because you like to use instruments of death to blow up frisbees is just amplifying the problem.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I thought Dlew's suggestion about using only rubber bullets was interesting, but I'm not sure if that is a good idea. I think that could potentially increase gun-related fatalities in the US.

I just think that most people, even criminals or law-abiding people protecting their property, really do not want to take a life and will only use their gun as a last resort. If their gun is loaded up with rubber bullets, though, I don't think they would even hesitate to use it. Instead of a guy walking into a gas station and demanding that the clerk give him all the money out of the register, he might just shoot the clerk with a rubber bullet and then take the money when he's incapacitated. If somebody steals your wallet and you are packing a gun with rubber bullets, you probably would just shoot the guy in the back when he's running away, because he will probably survive, and you would like to have your wallet back.

I just think that legislation would create a shoot-first mentality, and while rubber bullets are far less fatal, the increased use would at the very least increase gun-related injuries, and might even increase deaths. They would make mass shootings far less tragic, though.

[Cire]

People should stop saying "guns" and qualify that with hand guns/assault rifles/high capacity magazines etc.

[EMAWican]

I am convinced that the full gun ban discussion is yet another example of the government not dealing with the real problem, but addressing the symptoms and hoping for the best.  The vast majority of kids these days are first introduced to guns or any violence via a TV/computer screen.  The line between reality and virtual is never set or learned.

Another underlying issue is rampant pill-popping.   Many parents are often pushed to fix a poorly disciplined child with pills. Some don’t have ADHD or are bipolar; they have poor parents.  What if parenting & behavior modification classes were forced to be an option?  I am assuming that with this shooter, medication was involved since there was mental illness.  I've had discussions with pediatricians that claim parents want a "magic pill" (easiest solution for them) to fix the problems, and get pissed when parenting & behavior modification classes were even suggested.  This whole pill-popping is a hotly-debated topic in the medical community, but when there's over 55 million prescriptions (accounting for over $8 billion annually in sales) for just ADHD, shouldn't the relationship be researched more in depth?   

Here's some links with some interesting points:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/09/antipsychotics-adhd-study_n_1760602.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444301704577631591596516110.html

 

[Dugout DickStone]

Does the killing of two Topeka police officers get put in this thread or do we start a new one every time people are needlessly killed by gun violence?

Police should have been packing.

that guy would have thought twice if he'd of known those cops had handguns.

[steve dave]

question:

what's the best thing anyone you have ever had even casual friendship done with a gun? what is the worst? you can list multiple.

I'll go first to break the ice

best:
guy from my town killed a deer with big horns
I shot 16 straight clay pigeons with a .410 shotgun in 8th grade

worst:
friend accidentally shot his foot off, complete dumbass
uncle shot himself in the head
guy in my HS class held up a convenience store with one

just thought of another one. some rough ridin' redneck in Waco pulled a handgun on me on our way to S. Padre when I was in college. scary as crap. can't believe I forgot about that earlier. I think I maybe cut him off in traffic earlier or something but he didn't really elaborate.

EDIT: that goes in the worst list fwiw

[Cire]

kids with adhd or any other such disorder have to learn to cope, parents/teachers and whoever else is in that child's life needs to teach them. None of those drugs aren't meant to be taken for extended periods of time.

[Dr Rick Daris]

there is currently less gun violence in the united states than there was thirty years ago. if anything, violent shows and games are helping by giving whacko nut jobs an outlet. so sorry dorks, but csi miami and grand theft auto isn't causing people to go shoot other people in real life. if anything, it's the opposite.

[Dugout DickStone]

I thought Dlew's suggestion about using only rubber bullets was interesting, but I'm not sure if that is a good idea. I think that could potentially increase gun-related fatalities in the US.

I just think that most people, even criminals or law-abiding people protecting their property, really do not want to take a life and will only use their gun as a last resort. If their gun is loaded up with rubber bullets, though, I don't think they would even hesitate to use it. Instead of a guy walking into a gas station and demanding that the clerk give him all the money out of the register, he might just shoot the clerk with a rubber bullet and then take the money when he's incapacitated. If somebody steals your wallet and you are packing a gun with rubber bullets, you probably would just shoot the guy in the back when he's running away, because he will probably survive, and you would like to have your wallet back.

I just think that legislation would create a shoot-first mentality, and while rubber bullets are far less fatal, the increased use would at the very least increase gun-related injuries, and might even increase deaths. They would make mass shootings far less tragic, though.

there would need to be a statutory regime in place that made the use of rubber bullets punishable in accordance with how they were to be used.

[Institutional Control]

just thought of another one. some rough ridin' redneck in Waco pulled a handgun on me on our way to S. Padre when I was in college. scary as crap. can't believe I forgot about that earlier. I think I maybe cut him off in traffic earlier or something but he didn't really elaborate.

EDIT: that goes in the worst list fwiw

Are you sure it goes in the worst? It gave you a cool anecdote about soiling your pants.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I thought Dlew's suggestion about using only rubber bullets was interesting, but I'm not sure if that is a good idea. I think that could potentially increase gun-related fatalities in the US.

I just think that most people, even criminals or law-abiding people protecting their property, really do not want to take a life and will only use their gun as a last resort. If their gun is loaded up with rubber bullets, though, I don't think they would even hesitate to use it. Instead of a guy walking into a gas station and demanding that the clerk give him all the money out of the register, he might just shoot the clerk with a rubber bullet and then take the money when he's incapacitated. If somebody steals your wallet and you are packing a gun with rubber bullets, you probably would just shoot the guy in the back when he's running away, because he will probably survive, and you would like to have your wallet back.

I just think that legislation would create a shoot-first mentality, and while rubber bullets are far less fatal, the increased use would at the very least increase gun-related injuries, and might even increase deaths. They would make mass shootings far less tragic, though.

there would need to be a statutory regime in place that made the use of rubber bullets punishable in accordance with how they were to be used.

Yeah. I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad idea, but there would have to be a whole lot of well thought-out laws to go along with the rubber bullets. Sometimes it can be very easy for a well-intentioned regulation to have the opposite of the desired effect.