Another school shooting

[HeinBallz]

We have to figure out a way so some disturbed idiot who has a bad day and decides "eff it" cannot massacre 20 little kids by just squeezing a trigger.  We simply have to.  I don't want your goddam guns, I have hunting guns myself but eff, this guy just got mad and had access to killing machines that allowed him to freak out and kill 20 little kids with so little effort or planning.

Read again, 20 little kids watched some psycho train a pistol on them and end their lives.  That is mumped.  That is mumped in such a huge way that it cannot be overstated.

He had a bad day, among many I am sure he had, and had access to something that allowed him to ruin thousands of lives.  If it means Jimmy pistol lover in Oklahoma can't own 35 Glocks, I'm happy to hurt his feelings.

Move to pit

Only read the bold section then stopped reading because I agree completely.   I have to wonder if the same things that are causing unwanted pregnancies to be aborted, countless suicides caused by depression, domestic disputes/violence, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, sex abuse, various other addictions and whatever disgusting thing within our society are all created by the same things that cause such a horrendous event that occurred today.   

A total paradigm shift is needed.  Emphasis needs to be put on creating healthy environments for kids to grow up in so that these things don't happen. At the very least people taking individual responsibility to have a positive impact on single parent families/ families in poverty/etc.   It's clear there is a sickness in our society that leads people down these horrible paths and the only thing I can think to fix any of these tragedies to reach out to our own kids - our neighbors kids - our nieces & nephews and allow them to feel what it's like to be loved unconditionally.  Allow them to have a positive influence in their life - someone to go to when they're troubled or in need of help to sort out their depression, anxiety, & anger.  We can't turn our back on anyone and we need to eliminate the hypocrisy in our society.  We can't teach our kids that hitting is wrong and simultaneously support violence in any other form.

Not that I disagree, but how does this happen? Particularly inner city. You can't legislate shitty parenting away.

Be the change.  You can't legislate ANY of this away, and I would have thought today's events would make this more evident. There are laws in place that should have prevented this, but they didn't.  I don't see how more laws would help.  Maybe all of the things I posted above are exemplified by people's incessant need to legislate things because they are either too lazy to take steps in their own world to make life better or too untrusting of other people to pull their own load.  Theres no personal accountability - We externalize so much and I see this as a main cause to events such as these.  I see people clamoring for legislation as just another sign of this externalizing.  Feels like a symptom to a horrible illness bigger than anybody will admit to.

What laws are in place that could have prevented this? The laws against committing murder?

Yes, Guns on school property is another. 

[steve dave]

steve dave, i'm not ridiculing reaction.  i'm arguing for context.  9-11 was a horrible tragedy, but i think most people, at least most of the left-wing libertarians that frequent this board, can agree that the dept of homeland security and random country invading response was expensive, ineffective and destructive.

intellect, not emotion.  in all things.

absolutely. but every time something like this happens we have the very same gun debate. and it happens a lot. eventually it's not reactionary anymore.

[JohnCurrie is Weird/Gross]

There are 200 million guns in this country, I agree a assault rifle ban now is probably inconsequential for our lifetimes but damn, think about the future of this country. A federal ban on the manufacture and sale of assault rifles could save thousands of lives in the future. In the short term you probably cant legislate guns away but long term you absolutely can, there are many examples of this throughout the world.

[Dugout DickStone]

we can absolutely legislate guns away

:smh:  guns do not = violence

If your goal is to eliminate gun violence, then fine.  What about all violence? these tragedies can be carried out with many different tools.

List the methods that some malcontent can kill 20 kids, and provide examples when it has ever happened in our nation's history.

I'm open to anything except them somehow building a bomb or stabbing.

[HeinBallz]

If your goal is to eliminate gun violence, then fine.  What about all violence? these tragedies can be carried out with many different tools.

yeah, I am very fine with this. start with the big ones and work down the list.

Be prepared for a never ending list and possible back lashes no person can predict.  It just seems to me, dealing with issues that cause mental illness is a finite list - as opposed to an infinite list of removing tools of violence.  Creating social programs to provide personal counseling and other things of that nature seems like it would have a greater impact on events such as these and even have a farther reach to other serious issues we deal with.

[steve dave]

If your goal is to eliminate gun violence, then fine.  What about all violence? these tragedies can be carried out with many different tools.

yeah, I am very fine with this. start with the big ones and work down the list.

Be prepared for a never ending list and possible back lashes no person can predict.  It just seems to me, dealing with issues that cause mental illness is a finite list - as opposed to an infinite list of removing tools of violence.  Creating social programs to provide personal counseling and other things of that nature seems like it would have a greater impact on events such as these and even have a farther reach to other serious issues we deal with.

yeah, I know gun freaks will get pissed. I'm fine with that. pull the band aid off fast. they can find another way to make themselves feel powerful to compensate. I recommended baseball cards earlier and I maintain it's a good fallback.

[HeinBallz]

we can absolutely legislate guns away

:smh:  guns do not = violence

If your goal is to eliminate gun violence, then fine.  What about all violence? these tragedies can be carried out with many different tools.

List the methods that some malcontent can kill 20 kids, and provide examples when it has ever happened in our nation's history.

I'm open to anything except them somehow building a bomb or stabbing.

Why create these standards of situations where you know your point doesn't work?  Why exclude relevant information just because it doesn't fit your nicely packaged argument?  It's a pretty well known fact that the last time an assault weapons ban was I acted in the US, a maniac killed nearly two hundred people with a bomb - including nearly 20 infants/ toddlers.

[steve dave]

we can absolutely legislate guns away

:smh:  guns do not = violence

If your goal is to eliminate gun violence, then fine.  What about all violence? these tragedies can be carried out with many different tools.

List the methods that some malcontent can kill 20 kids, and provide examples when it has ever happened in our nation's history.

I'm open to anything except them somehow building a bomb or stabbing.

Why create these standards of situations where you know your point doesn't work?  Why exclude relevant information just because it doesn't fit your nicely packaged argument?  It's a pretty well known fact that the last time an assault weapons ban was I acted in the US, a maniac killed nearly two hundred people with a bomb - including nearly 20 infants/ toddlers.

don't deflect, at least try to answer

[HeinBallz]

If your goal is to eliminate gun violence, then fine.  What about all violence? these tragedies can be carried out with many different tools.

yeah, I am very fine with this. start with the big ones and work down the list.

Be prepared for a never ending list and possible back lashes no person can predict.  It just seems to me, dealing with issues that cause mental illness is a finite list - as opposed to an infinite list of removing tools of violence.  Creating social programs to provide personal counseling and other things of that nature seems like it would have a greater impact on events such as these and even have a farther reach to other serious issues we deal with.

yeah, I know gun freaks will get pissed. I'm fine with that. pull the band aid off fast. they can find another way to make themselves feel powerful to compensate. I recommended baseball cards earlier and I maintain it's a good fallback.

You're not even reading what I'm writing.  I'm saying illuminating guns does nothing to address the mental illness that allows these things to happen.

[star seed 7]

so it's one or the other?

[steve dave]

If your goal is to eliminate gun violence, then fine.  What about all violence? these tragedies can be carried out with many different tools.

yeah, I am very fine with this. start with the big ones and work down the list.

Be prepared for a never ending list and possible back lashes no person can predict.  It just seems to me, dealing with issues that cause mental illness is a finite list - as opposed to an infinite list of removing tools of violence.  Creating social programs to provide personal counseling and other things of that nature seems like it would have a greater impact on events such as these and even have a farther reach to other serious issues we deal with.

yeah, I know gun freaks will get pissed. I'm fine with that. pull the band aid off fast. they can find another way to make themselves feel powerful to compensate. I recommended baseball cards earlier and I maintain it's a good fallback.

You're not even reading what I'm writing.  I'm saying illuminating guns does nothing to address the mental illness that allows these things to happen.

do both. work on mental illness and take their murder tools away. you don't leave a disintegration ray in the reach of a psychopath, nobody needs a disintegration ray anyway.

[steve dave]

gun people seem to be really parading around the idea that there is a side that is solely anti-gun that is coming down on them.

[JohnCurrie is Weird/Gross]

If your goal is to eliminate gun violence, then fine.  What about all violence? these tragedies can be carried out with many different tools.

yeah, I am very fine with this. start with the big ones and work down the list.

Be prepared for a never ending list and possible back lashes no person can predict.  It just seems to me, dealing with issues that cause mental illness is a finite list - as opposed to an infinite list of removing tools of violence.  Creating social programs to provide personal counseling and other things of that nature seems like it would have a greater impact on events such as these and even have a farther reach to other serious issues we deal with.

yeah, I know gun freaks will get pissed. I'm fine with that. pull the band aid off fast. they can find another way to make themselves feel powerful to compensate. I recommended baseball cards earlier and I maintain it's a good fallback.

You're not even reading what I'm writing.  I'm saying illuminating guns does nothing to address the mental illness that allows these things to happen.

It's seems like what you're saying is the same amount of people would be dead from violence with or without guns, I really hope that's not the case tho because that would be ridiculous.

[HeinBallz]

we can absolutely legislate guns away

:smh:  guns do not = violence

If your goal is to eliminate gun violence, then fine.  What about all violence? these tragedies can be carried out with many different tools.

List the methods that some malcontent can kill 20 kids, and provide examples when it has ever happened in our nation's history.

I'm open to anything except them somehow building a bomb or stabbing.

Why create these standards of situations where you know your point doesn't work?  Why exclude relevant information just because it doesn't fit your nicely packaged argument?  It's a pretty well known fact that the last time an assault weapons ban was I acted in the US, a maniac killed nearly two hundred people with a bomb - including nearly 20 infants/ toddlers.

don't deflect, at least try to answer

How can I? That's like asking you to describe a scenario of 50 people accelerating down a steep cliff and loving every minute of it - but mandating you exclude roller coasters from your scenario.  Why pick and choose info? 

So I'll keep my answer.  In 1994, the US instituted an assault weapons ban in hopes to decrease outbreaks of widespread violence.  Within 1 year and 5 months  a man killed nearly 200 people with a bomb he built.  He was tremendously emotionally disturbed and the only thing that could have prevented it was helping home cope with whatever rage or insanity he was dealing with that he stated was triggered by the Waco, TX incident.

[puniraptor]

I hate people hyping the "assault weapons ban" like it was some kind of meaningful gun control legislation. All it did was ban the manufacture and sale of new arbitrarily defined "assault weapons". You could still freely buy and sell and own the existing "assault" products. It did nothing to get "assault weapons" off the street, just raised some prices.

[sys]

absolutely. but every time something like this happens we have the very same gun debate. and it happens a lot. eventually it's not reactionary anymore.

there are a lot of people that feel like they derive great satisfaction from owning or using guns.  i assume you aren't among them (neither am i, for the record), but surely you recognize the legitimacy of their emotions?  you can not fairly have this discussion with recognizing that in order to reduce the possibility of these types of incidents, there will be american citizens that are not as capable of pursuing happiness as they would be without gun restrictions.

to trot out a tired example - why do we not have the same tired debate every time there's a vehicle crash?  there is no reason we couldn't eliminate private vehicle use from our society.  mass transit, professional drivers, etc.  it is just as feasible, and reacts to a considerably larger problem.

but i think you know full well why we don't.  it is very easy to discuss banning something valued only by the proscribed other, another thing entirely to contemplate forgoing something almost all of us value.

[HeinBallz]

I hate people hyping the "assault weapons ban" like it was some kind of meaningful gun control legislation. All it did was ban the manufacture and sale of new arbitrarily defined "assault weapons". You could still freely buy and sell and own the existing "assault" products. It did nothing to get "assault weapons" off the street, just raised some prices.

All laws and legislation leave loop holes for people willing to break and bend the law.  I hate the cliche, but what does punishing law abiding citizens accomplish?

[Bloodfart]

we can absolutely legislate guns away

:smh:  guns do not = violence

If your goal is to eliminate gun violence, then fine.  What about all violence? these tragedies can be carried out with many different tools.

List the methods that some malcontent can kill 20 kids, and provide examples when it has ever happened in our nation's history.

I'm open to anything except them somehow building a bomb or stabbing.

Why create these standards of situations where you know your point doesn't work?  Why exclude relevant information just because it doesn't fit your nicely packaged argument?  It's a pretty well known fact that the last time an assault weapons ban was I acted in the US, a maniac killed nearly two hundred people with a bomb - including nearly 20 infants/ toddlers.

don't deflect, at least try to answer

Poison, brain control, disease, a big truck, bad building codes, airplanes 

[steve dave]

absolutely. but every time something like this happens we have the very same gun debate. and it happens a lot. eventually it's not reactionary anymore.

there are a lot of people that feel like they derive great satisfaction from owning or using guns.  i assume you aren't among them (neither am i, for the record), but surely you recognize the legitimacy of their emotions?  you can not fairly have this discussion with recognizing that in order to reduce the possibility of these types of incidents, there will be american citizens that are not as capable of pursuing happiness as they would be without gun restrictions.

to trot out a tired example - why do we not have the same tired debate every time there's a vehicle crash?  there is no reason we couldn't eliminate private vehicle use from our society.  mass transit, professional drivers, etc.  it is just as feasible, and reacts to a considerably larger problem.

but i think you know full well why we don't.  it is very easy to discuss banning something valued only by the proscribed other, another thing entirely to contemplate forgoing something almost all of us value.

don't do that. obviously vehicles have another purpose other than killing something or "providing joy". you are a better and smarter poster than this.

[puniraptor]

I hate people hyping the "assault weapons ban" like it was some kind of meaningful gun control legislation. All it did was ban the manufacture and sale of new arbitrarily defined "assault weapons". You could still freely buy and sell and own the existing "assault" products. It did nothing to get "assault weapons" off the street, just raised some prices.

All laws and legislation leave loop holes for people willing to break and bend the law.  I hate the cliche, but what does punishing law abiding citizens accomplish?

It's not a loophole. I'm just saying Timothy McViegh could have legally purchased an AR-15 and loaded up with 30 round mags.

[sys]

don't do that. obviously vehicles have another purpose other than murdering something or "providing joy". you are a better and smarter poster than this.

don't condescend to me, you rough ridin' Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).  read what i wrote and respond to it if you will, but do not dare slip your own assumptions into my text.

i said nothing about vehicles' utility, nor of guns having nonviolent purposes.

[steve dave]

don't do that. obviously vehicles have another purpose other than murdering something or "providing joy". you are a better and smarter poster than this.

don't condescend to me, you rough ridin' Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).  read what i wrote and respond to it if you will, but do not dare slip your own assumptions into my text.

i said nothing about vehicles' utility, nor of guns having nonviolent purposes.

no, you deserved to be condescended there. I'm positive you know that.

[HeinBallz]

No, he couldn't have.  There was an assault weapons ban at the time.  See where this is going? 

[sys]

no, you deserved to be condescended there. I'm positive you know that.

bullshit, you're simply too lazy to engage in debate.

[steve dave]

no, you deserved to be condescended there. I'm positive you know that.

bullshit, you're simply too lazy to engage in debate.

you:
people get joy from guns
we could ban cars and do away with vehicle crashes which is a bigger problem
you don't want to because you (and all of us) like cars and not guns

me:
that's a dumbfuck argument

you:
nope

me:
nope

no, I have a pretty good grasp of it, thanks.