Another school shooting

[HeinBallz]

No, but if you see someone with heroin you know it is illegal/dangerous and their is a reason to lock them up.

So now we're into the accountability realm of the argument.  We're going to go to these great lengths to stop violence so that when we see a crazy man shoot a bunch of kids up with "lethal bullets" we'll be able to prosecute him for not only killing kids but for owning lethal bullets.

Also, we could potentially prosecute him before the shooting of the kids happens.

Could we really?  That's ridiculous.  We're all probably breaking some stupid law right now.  People buy illegal drugs & use them without anyone ever knowing.  People drive drunk without anyone ever knowing.  People abuse children/wifes/animals without anyone ever knowing.  We're grasping at straws by having this conversation.

[Gooch]

What if we prohibited the production of ammunition (as we know it) for citizens, and only permit the production of less lethal rubber bullets?  Is this dumb?

People could still defend themselves and shoot skeet and target practice and their guns wouldn't be taken away, but their access to ammunition allowing them to easily kill whatever their gun is pointed at is strictly limited.  Seems like a good compromise to me?

In other words, maybe "gun control" is the wrong discussion, and "ammunition control" is the right one.

People make their own ammo cheaper than they can buy it.

But it's a more involved process than buying it, right?  Making "lethal bullets" would be more conspicuous than, say going to the store and picking it up, right?

For what reason would a current gun owner object to prohibiting the sale of lethal bullets, aside from guys who hunt for sport?

People that defend the 2nd ammendment fot the sake of defending it will be against it.  Also, any restrictions will be met with "slippery slope" arguments that are what Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) people use when wanting to be against something, but having no reason to actually be against it

That is not what I am saying at all. Do I think there should be restrictions going forward? Hell yes I do. I am in full support of a waiting period of some sort. You can with a clean record go in and buy a gun in under 30 min with the online FBI background checking now. This might limit some of this from happening in the spur of the moment crimes. Does the average citizen need an AR-15? Probably not, but they have them and you can not go take them away now. This would only impower the "see they are coming for my gun guys" even more than limitations. Could you limit their production going forward? Yes, This would drive the pricing up hopefully taking them out of the hands of people that would use them irresponsibly.

[HeinBallz]

Why is this conversation still happening?  Is it because getting rid of every gun/bullet/bomb is actually easier than being a good parent or social role model?

What the hell is your point here?  What do you think the purposes of laws are?

Vague and unsuccessful attempts at controlling people.   Do laws actually stop people from being crap human beings?

[Rage Against the McKee]

Why is this conversation still happening?  Is it because getting rid of every gun/bullet/bomb is actually easier than being a good parent or social role model?

It is much easier to get rid of every gun/bullet/bomb than it is to ensure that every single parent in America does a good job and is a social role model.

[Unruly]

Why is this conversation still happening?  Is it because getting rid of every gun/bullet/bomb is actually easier than being a good parent or social role model?

+1


It sucks being a sane responsible gun owner and having one of my hobbies being threatened because of a few peoples horrible actions.

A person on facebook posted this:

If roads were collapsing all across the United States, killing dozens of drivers, we would surely see that as a moment to talk about what we could do to keep roads from collapsing. If terrorists were detonating bombs in port after port, you can be sure Congress would be working to upgrade the nation’s security measures. If a plague was ripping through communities, public-health officials would be working feverishly to contain it.

They brought up an interesting point here. Because gun violence happens in a spectacular fashion it appears to be so much worse than 5-10 people dieing a day in car wrecks.

[DQ12]

Why is this conversation still happening?  Is it because getting rid of every gun/bullet/bomb is actually easier than being a good parent or social role model?

What the hell is your point here?  What do you think the purposes of laws are?

Vague and unsuccessful attempts at controlling people.   Do laws actually stop people from being crap human beings?

Finally, you come out and say it.  I thought that's what you might be getting at. 

That's an absolutely Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) argument by the way.

[SkinnyBenny]

the people that are legislating laws to control violence have no idea how real life works.  They don't realize you can make a mold, melt lead (or any other type of metal) to make bullets, reload old casings, mix your own gun chowder, build your own gun (hell even 3d print your own gun now) build bombs with fertilizer, sell all this illegal crap on the deep web to lazy/stupid/ignorant people wanting to create chaos, etc etc etc.   Rubber bullets would do a damn good job at stopping me from shooting anyone.  Not because I'm lazy/stupid/ignorant - but because I'm not willing to break the law to go to the lengths to get real bullets.  Anyone that thinks laziness/ignorance is enough to stop people from doing crazy/stupid crap should spend a couple days on youtube.

I've got a feeling that Javon Belcher, in the heat of the argument on that fateful Friday night a few weeks ago, wasn't going to take the time to make a mold and melt lead. I've also got a feeling that if he had to go on Uhaul's website and take a few days to rent one, and locate a shitload of fertilizer, he may have thought twice in the days and days it would've taken him. Instead, he got pissed off, grabbed a gun, and killed his girlfriend and himself without having time to think it over.

[HeinBallz]

Would rubber bullets be a good compromise?  I really don't know a whole lot about guns or gun control, but it seems to me that there are a finite number of bullets in this country, and a bullet may be shot only once, then it's all used up. 

It seems that rubber bullets, though still dangerous, would be significantly less lethal than whatever ammunition is used now.  Gun people could still target practice and skeet shoot and defend themselves and what not.  Seems like rubber bullets could significantly limit a gun owner's ability to take life, while affording him all of the other advantages of owning a gun.  Exceptions could be given to police, military, etc.

Again, this might be totally stupid because I've never really cared to know much about guns.

yeah... I wouldn't make that argument. 


And this is the problem at hand; not bashing you, but the people that are legislating laws to control violence have no idea how real life works.  They don't realize you can make a mold, melt lead (or any other type of metal) to make bullets, reload old casings, mix your own gun chowder, build your own gun (hell even 3d print your own gun now) build bombs with fertilizer, sell all this illegal crap on the deep web to lazy/stupid/ignorant people wanting to create chaos, etc etc etc.   Rubber bullets would do a damn good job at stopping me from shooting anyone.  Not because I'm lazy/stupid/ignorant - but because I'm not willing to break the law to go to the lengths to get real bullets.  Anyone that thinks laziness/ignorance is enough to stop people from doing crazy/stupid crap should spend a couple days on youtube.

Can someone who doesn't think that a gun ban wouldn't significantly curb murder rates in this country please tell me how they rationalize decreases in murder rate in other 1st world, western countries that have instituted gun bans?  Do it without the "bad people would still kill" strawman.  I don't think anyone who favors a gun ban thinks that murder would suddenly disappear.

Because laws don't happen without people wanting them to happen.  (People are not oppressed by laws - they allow laws to happen and are sometimes manipulated with fear into allowing laws to be passed)  When gun bans are enacted, it's a reflection of societies desire to have less violence - at which point, the transition has already began to occur in every part of their society.  They could have made that transition with or without the gun ban.  It's happened in other countries I'm sure.  Violence will end when people stop wanting to do harm to each other.  Right now, we live in a culture where kids are bullied their entire life, so they become a cop or join the army so they can exert some authority on others.  Do these same countries also have ridiculous amounts of military spending and military presence in foreign nations?  Do they have gang violence in areas of high poverty and single parent families? We live in a violent culture and taking away guns will not end our violent culture - we need to fix the things that are making people have violent tendencies.  A gun placed in the hands of a sane man will not render him insane.

[HeinBallz]

the people that are legislating laws to control violence have no idea how real life works.  They don't realize you can make a mold, melt lead (or any other type of metal) to make bullets, reload old casings, mix your own gun chowder, build your own gun (hell even 3d print your own gun now) build bombs with fertilizer, sell all this illegal crap on the deep web to lazy/stupid/ignorant people wanting to create chaos, etc etc etc.   Rubber bullets would do a damn good job at stopping me from shooting anyone.  Not because I'm lazy/stupid/ignorant - but because I'm not willing to break the law to go to the lengths to get real bullets.  Anyone that thinks laziness/ignorance is enough to stop people from doing crazy/stupid crap should spend a couple days on youtube.

I've got a feeling that Javon Belcher, in the heat of the argument on that fateful Friday night a few weeks ago, wasn't going to take the time to make a mold and melt lead. I got a feeling if he had to go on Uhaul's website and take a few days to rent one, and locate a shitload of fertilizer, may have thought twice in the days and days it would've taken him.

Right... because a 250LB professional athlete couldn't think of any other way to murder his wife.

[SkinnyBenny]

You're clearly missing the point.

[AppleJack]

I'm still sad :(

[HeinBallz]

How does that make sense in your world? "Oh look, some rich dude, better beat him up and hope he's carrying his sporting rifle on him, otherwise this would be stupid."

I'm not even going to address this with a response.

As to your second point - wouldn't that be an argument for restricting guns? If rates of violence are similar, but those countries have fewer fatalities, seems to be a favorable argument for limiting access to firearms.

You don't get it.  I'm saying remove guns from both equations.  Don't count gun deaths in a country that doesn't allow guns and compare it to a country that does allow guns.  That's like saying a person that never drives a car is less likely to die in a car wreck. 

If you can compare knife related violence in those countries to knife related violence in our country and see we're more violent with knife's - you can infer that we're more violent.  You can then ask how this other country reduced their violence - surely you can see that removing guns has no logical effect on knife violence.

[EMAWmeister]

the people that are legislating laws to control violence have no idea how real life works.  They don't realize you can make a mold, melt lead (or any other type of metal) to make bullets, reload old casings, mix your own gun chowder, build your own gun (hell even 3d print your own gun now) build bombs with fertilizer, sell all this illegal crap on the deep web to lazy/stupid/ignorant people wanting to create chaos, etc etc etc.   Rubber bullets would do a damn good job at stopping me from shooting anyone.  Not because I'm lazy/stupid/ignorant - but because I'm not willing to break the law to go to the lengths to get real bullets.  Anyone that thinks laziness/ignorance is enough to stop people from doing crazy/stupid crap should spend a couple days on youtube.

I've got a feeling that Javon Belcher, in the heat of the argument on that fateful Friday night a few weeks ago, wasn't going to take the time to make a mold and melt lead. I got a feeling if he had to go on Uhaul's website and take a few days to rent one, and locate a shitload of fertilizer, may have thought twice in the days and days it would've taken him.

Right... because a 250LB professional athlete couldn't think of any other way to murder his wife.

Pulling a trigger is like turning out a light. I may be speaking out of my ass here, but I think most people don't have the heart to beat, stab, or maul someone to death.  I believe that many of those same people could pull a trigger on impulse, and it only takes one.

[HeinBallz]

You're clearly missing the point.

I may be missing the point you're trying to make, but you're clearly missing my point.  Javon Belcher was a wife batterer - that was the issue.  He was going to kill his wife in a moment of rage one way or the other.  Removing his gun would not prevent him from being a wife batterer.

[EllRobersonisInnocent]

The whole situation of this is just really f'd up. Kid goes into his mom's classroom and goes on a rampage. It's hard to comprehend everything that happened

[HeinBallz]

the people that are legislating laws to control violence have no idea how real life works.  They don't realize you can make a mold, melt lead (or any other type of metal) to make bullets, reload old casings, mix your own gun chowder, build your own gun (hell even 3d print your own gun now) build bombs with fertilizer, sell all this illegal crap on the deep web to lazy/stupid/ignorant people wanting to create chaos, etc etc etc.   Rubber bullets would do a damn good job at stopping me from shooting anyone.  Not because I'm lazy/stupid/ignorant - but because I'm not willing to break the law to go to the lengths to get real bullets.  Anyone that thinks laziness/ignorance is enough to stop people from doing crazy/stupid crap should spend a couple days on youtube.

I've got a feeling that Javon Belcher, in the heat of the argument on that fateful Friday night a few weeks ago, wasn't going to take the time to make a mold and melt lead. I got a feeling if he had to go on Uhaul's website and take a few days to rent one, and locate a shitload of fertilizer, may have thought twice in the days and days it would've taken him.

Right... because a 250LB professional athlete couldn't think of any other way to murder his wife.

Pulling a trigger is like turning out a light. I may be speaking out of my ass here, but I think most people don't have the heart to beat, stab, or maul someone to death.  I believe that many of those same people could pull a trigger on impulse, and it only takes one.

I may be talking from my ass - but I see the act of reaching for a gun, taking aim, & pulling a trigger much less impulsive than punching someone in the face.  A 250LB professional athlete could kill someone with a single punch - It would be no less impulsive to reach for a knife and take a swing at someones head with it.

[steve dave]

You're clearly missing the point.

I may be missing the point you're trying to make, but you're clearly missing my point.  Javon Belcher was a wife batterer - that was the issue.  He was going to kill his wife in a moment of rage one way or the other.  Removing his gun would not prevent him from being a wife batterer.

I disagree with this strongly

[Rage Against the McKee]

Belcher clearly regretted pulling the trigger. Why else would he shoot himself? I agree with EMAWmeister here.

[HeinBallz]

Why is this conversation still happening?  Is it because getting rid of every gun/bullet/bomb is actually easier than being a good parent or social role model?

It is much easier to get rid of every gun/bullet/bomb than it is to ensure that every single parent in America does a good job and is a social role model.

Except one would have a greater impact on all lethal violence, and many other issues plaguing our society - and the other would not stop violence at all.   What happened today was not an impulsive act - it was a premeditated occurrence - This, for all intents and purposes, could have been a U-haul filled with fertilizer.

[ChiComCat]

No, but if you see someone with heroin you know it is illegal/dangerous and their is a reason to lock them up.

So now we're into the accountability realm of the argument.  We're going to go to these great lengths to stop violence so that when we see a crazy man shoot a bunch of kids up with "lethal bullets" we'll be able to prosecute him for not only killing kids but for owning lethal bullets.

Also, we could potentially prosecute him before the shooting of the kids happens.

Could we really?  That's ridiculous.  We're all probably breaking some stupid law right now.  People buy illegal drugs & use them without anyone ever knowing.  People drive drunk without anyone ever knowing.  People abuse children/wifes/animals without anyone ever knowing.  We're grasping at straws by having this conversation.

And other people do those things and are arrested. Do you mean to be saying that we shouldn't outlaw domestic abuse or drunk driving, because thats exactly what you are doing.  So if a law doesn't catch 100% of perpetrators, we should just say forget it?

[HeinBallz]

Why is this conversation still happening?  Is it because getting rid of every gun/bullet/bomb is actually easier than being a good parent or social role model?

What the hell is your point here?  What do you think the purposes of laws are?

Vague and unsuccessful attempts at controlling people.   Do laws actually stop people from being crap human beings?

Finally, you come out and say it.  I thought that's what you might be getting at. 

That's an absolutely Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) argument by the way.

Was there any question that was what I was getting at?  Sorry for being so vague.  You know, you might have a better argument though, if you actually defended your statement with some logical response.  Resorting to: "That's Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)... You're Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)..." makes me think you're have to ability to think critically.

[DQ12]

Why is this conversation still happening?  Is it because getting rid of every gun/bullet/bomb is actually easier than being a good parent or social role model?

What the hell is your point here?  What do you think the purposes of laws are?

Vague and unsuccessful attempts at controlling people.   Do laws actually stop people from being crap human beings?

Finally, you come out and say it.  I thought that's what you might be getting at. 

That's an absolutely Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) argument by the way.

Was there any question that was what I was getting at?  Sorry for being so vague.  You know, you might have a better argument though, if you actually defended your statement with some logical response.  Resorting to: "That's Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)... You're Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)..." makes me think you're have to ability to think critically.

I was short with you because no rational person thinks that the existence of laws are without success.

There are tons of theories for laws that exist.  But for the present purposes, here's all the response that is necessary:  child molestation is illegal.  because of that, there are child molesters in jail who cannot molest children today because they're in jail.

[sys]

I'm confused about what the frequency and odds of being killed by gun violence has to do with whether or not something should be done about it.

it speaks to the relative danger these hypothetical gun control laws would be trying to prevent.  most laws regarding public safety are tradeoffs between personal liberty and public safety.  accordingly, it is impossible to rationally consider the benefit or harm of such laws without understanding both the rates of violence that might be prevented, and the magnitude of the liberties to be restricted.

the amount of innocent killed in relation to a perpetrator killed by someone defending him/herself is so out of wack I don't know how people can continue to use this as a rationalization for the widespread legalization of firearms.

i could care less about self-defense.  i care about personal liberties.  owning a gun wouldn't even make my top 20 of personal liberties threatened or restricted by governments, but that doesn't mean i think it should be given away.  i'm also against the cowardice that permeates our culture.  life is risky, it is impossible to remove all risk from our lives, and the insane pursuit of safety already causes us to be incredibly less productive, happy and wealthy than we could be.  gun control again, wouldn't even be on the top 20 (prolly top 100) of a list of our hyperresponsiveness to the perception of random danger, but it's a symptom of the same disease.

To your second point, that was valid half a century ago.  Now whether you are talking about the local police or a national army the weaponry that these people have are far more advanced and deadly than any weaponry a citizen protecting himself from the oppressor can have.  Should we let people have tanks and bombers too?  How will the Syrians use their guns when they have sarin bombs dropped on their heads?  Should they get sarin too?

i think small arms are still more relevant in warfare, and certainly in civil insurrection, than you suggest, but if you are correct, that is perhaps sad, but not a reason to restrict gun ownership.  yes, people should be able to have tanks and bombers.  dunno about sarin.

[HeinBallz]

No, but if you see someone with heroin you know it is illegal/dangerous and their is a reason to lock them up.

So now we're into the accountability realm of the argument.  We're going to go to these great lengths to stop violence so that when we see a crazy man shoot a bunch of kids up with "lethal bullets" we'll be able to prosecute him for not only killing kids but for owning lethal bullets.

Also, we could potentially prosecute him before the shooting of the kids happens.

Could we really?  That's ridiculous.  We're all probably breaking some stupid law right now.  People buy illegal drugs & use them without anyone ever knowing.  People drive drunk without anyone ever knowing.  People abuse children/wifes/animals without anyone ever knowing.  We're grasping at straws by having this conversation.

And other people do those things and are arrested. Do you mean to be saying that we shouldn't allow domestic abuse or drunk driving, because thats exactly what you are doing.  So if a law doesn't catch 100% of perpetrators, we should just say forget it?

No, but you do help me clarify my point.  I'm saying that we can't 100% enforce laws that should be enforced.  The tremendous difference between driving drunk/domestic abuse and owning a controlled substance is with one there is intent to do harm to others - suggesting that owning a controlled substance or object (such as a bullet) is intent to do harm to others is ridiculous.  Not only would it be be unsuccessful - it would be a complete waste of time that clogs up the legal system.  Cops running down illegal bullets when they could focus their attention on people actually being hurt.

[EMAWmeister]

the people that are legislating laws to control violence have no idea how real life works.  They don't realize you can make a mold, melt lead (or any other type of metal) to make bullets, reload old casings, mix your own gun chowder, build your own gun (hell even 3d print your own gun now) build bombs with fertilizer, sell all this illegal crap on the deep web to lazy/stupid/ignorant people wanting to create chaos, etc etc etc.   Rubber bullets would do a damn good job at stopping me from shooting anyone.  Not because I'm lazy/stupid/ignorant - but because I'm not willing to break the law to go to the lengths to get real bullets.  Anyone that thinks laziness/ignorance is enough to stop people from doing crazy/stupid crap should spend a couple days on youtube.

I've got a feeling that Javon Belcher, in the heat of the argument on that fateful Friday night a few weeks ago, wasn't going to take the time to make a mold and melt lead. I got a feeling if he had to go on Uhaul's website and take a few days to rent one, and locate a shitload of fertilizer, may have thought twice in the days and days it would've taken him.

Right... because a 250LB professional athlete couldn't think of any other way to murder his wife.

Pulling a trigger is like turning out a light. I may be speaking out of my ass here, but I think most people don't have the heart to beat, stab, or maul someone to death.  I believe that many of those same people could pull a trigger on impulse, and it only takes one.

I may be talking from my ass - but I see the act of reaching for a gun, taking aim, & pulling a trigger much less impulsive than punching someone in the face.  A 250LB professional athlete could kill someone with a single punch - It would be no less impulsive to reach for a knife and take a swing at someones head with it.

The American public is not chalk full of 250 lb professional athletes. Belcher had serious issues, that's a poor example. Most people could not kill anyone on earth with a single punch.