Landmark night for civil rights

[MakeItRain]

The last paragraph you wrote is really confusing.  I think you might have mis-typed.

how about this

Denying someone the voluntary exchange of goods or time is not stopping them from pursuing those goods, it is simply not allowing them to force action on the denier

No, nicname. it isn't.  Having anti-discrimination laws isn't telling people they have to sell to gay people, just that they cannot deny a gay person from selling that good.  If that law stayed on the books in Salina it doesn't force Scheme Pizza to seek out gays to sell pizza to, it just forces them to not give me a pie because I'm a man of taste and distinction.  If I see someone walking up to my store and I think they are gay I can simply close my doors.  What I can't do is put up a sign that says no lezzies allowed.  Also If you don't have anti-discrimination laws you can't ensure that the pursuit of those goods is possible.  Without the laws how could you possibly know that all of the watch makers in Salina won't discriminate against gays?  I can't have a watch made if I'm gay in Salina?  Are you proposing that you can have the right to discriminate if you don't offer a unique product in a said locale?  That doesn't sound fun, nicname.

[Dr Rick Daris]

However, the more I think about it I'm also okay with general scholarships being awarded on the basis of race and here's why.  There are people still very alive, like baby boomers who had to fight for the right to attend public universities.  We are just a generation or two away from when college admission could be denied because of the color of your skin.  And yes there were/are black universities but then and to a somewhat lesser extent today achieving a degree from those places were viewed by the white power structure as inferior.  There need to be some things to balance the wrong of long time institutional discrimination.  You can't just change a law and snap your fingers and expect instant equality.  As far as higher education goes I think that there needs to be steps taken, like allowing race to be a factor in awarding certain scholarships, to help generations of minorities hurt and still recovering from institutional wrongs.  If you haven't seen the current 30 for 30, Ghosts of Mississippi, check it out it will shed some light on this very topic.

jesus christ. this thread takes off and i can't catch up. had to stop reading when i finally got here. i agree with everything above and get kind of weirded out by people that don't understand the above points. how do people not get this?

[sys]

i agree with everything above and get kind of weirded out by people that don't understand the above points. how do people not get this?

it's not a matter of not understanding them.  it's a matter of disagreeing with them.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Would this issue be able to be brought to the state level?  I guess I don't understand why it couldn't be passed state wide and be very easy.  I dont have any experience dealing with real life examples but don't racists still discriminate in jobs and housing but hide behind other measures to skirt legal action?

Given the people currently running things at the state level, I would wager that you would be much more likely to end up with a right to discriminate amendment than you would any kind of anti-discrimination law.

Also, yes, it would be very easy to get around the anti-discrimination law when it comes to hiring and deciding who to rent an apartment to. It's not very easy to deny service to somebody because they are gay and get away with it, though. This law also protects people from getting evicted or fired simply because some bigot finds out they are gay.

[Fedor]

Also Fedor's post, WOOF!

Whatever nic, my post was the turning point in this thread.  It forced MIR to retreat to the federal definition of discrimination.  It finally enabled you and sys to articulate a cogent argument.  And fulfilled the aforementioned purpose of a rage response.  All with basically one sentence.  Efficiency that LHCBS would be proud of.

[Rams]

However, the more I think about it I'm also okay with general scholarships being awarded on the basis of race and here's why.  There are people still very alive, like baby boomers who had to fight for the right to attend public universities.  We are just a generation or two away from when college admission could be denied because of the color of your skin.  And yes there were/are black universities but then and to a somewhat lesser extent today achieving a degree from those places were viewed by the white power structure as inferior.  There need to be some things to balance the wrong of long time institutional discrimination.  You can't just change a law and snap your fingers and expect instant equality.  As far as higher education goes I think that there needs to be steps taken, like allowing race to be a factor in awarding certain scholarships, to help generations of minorities hurt and still recovering from institutional wrongs.  If you haven't seen the current 30 for 30, Ghosts of Mississippi, check it out it will shed some light on this very topic.

jesus christ. this thread takes off and i can't catch up. had to stop reading when i finally got here. i agree with everything above and get kind of weirded out by people that don't understand the above points. how do people not get this?

it's not nearly as cut and dry as you make it out to be, imo.  I'm actually really torn on this issue.  on one hand, everything mir says is absolutely accurate and impossible to argue with.  on the other hand I think we run the risk, at some point, of unintentionally breathing new life into racism. are we fostering a new generation of racists by essentially legitimizing the idea that it's ok to differentiate people and afford them opportunities purely based on the color of their skin?  how many white college students out there who previously didn't have a racist thought in their head got denied a scholarship and quietly (or not so quietly) wondered if a black student "took" their scholarship just because they were black?  how does that shape their views going forward?

[MakeItRain]

Also Fedor's post, WOOF!

Whatever nic, my post was the turning point in this thread.  It forced MIR to retreat to the federal definition of discrimination.  It finally enabled you and sys to articulate a cogent argument.  And fulfilled the aforementioned purpose of a rage response.  All with basically one sentence.  Efficiency that LHCBS would be proud of.

pfft, it did none of this

[michigancat]

However, the more I think about it I'm also okay with general scholarships being awarded on the basis of race and here's why.  There are people still very alive, like baby boomers who had to fight for the right to attend public universities.  We are just a generation or two away from when college admission could be denied because of the color of your skin.  And yes there were/are black universities but then and to a somewhat lesser extent today achieving a degree from those places were viewed by the white power structure as inferior.  There need to be some things to balance the wrong of long time institutional discrimination.  You can't just change a law and snap your fingers and expect instant equality.  As far as higher education goes I think that there needs to be steps taken, like allowing race to be a factor in awarding certain scholarships, to help generations of minorities hurt and still recovering from institutional wrongs.  If you haven't seen the current 30 for 30, Ghosts of Mississippi, check it out it will shed some light on this very topic.

jesus christ. this thread takes off and i can't catch up. had to stop reading when i finally got here. i agree with everything above and get kind of weirded out by people that don't understand the above points. how do people not get this?

it's not nearly as cut and dry as you make it out to be, imo.  I'm actually really torn on this issue.  on one hand, everything mir says is absolutely accurate and impossible to argue with.  on the other hand I think we run the risk, at some point, of unintentionally breathing new life into racism. are we fostering a new generation of racists by essentially legitimizing the idea that it's ok to differentiate people and afford them opportunities purely based on the color of their skin?  how many white college students out there who previously didn't have a racist thought in their head got denied a scholarship and quietly (or not so quietly) wondered if a black student "took" their scholarship just because they were black?  how does that shape their views going forward?

Those kids were probably already big time racists.

[asava]

started to read this thread then promptly found better things to do. T's and P's to all the gays out there, keep on fighting the good fight.

[Cire]

Marriage is the real winner in all of this.

[sys]

It finally enabled you and sys to articulate a cogent argument.

i don't need any help articulating cogently.

[Fedor]

It finally enabled you and sys to articulate a cogent argument.

i don't need any help articulating cogently.

A simple thank you would suffice.

[felix rex]

lol

[jtksu]

Probably Luked but whatevs.  Whatever county Seattle is in has started dismissing existing charges against those arrested for less than an oz.  I guess the law doesn't take effect (affect?) until Dec. 6.