Nino and Doc - Didn't have what it took

[CNS]

Just did a little research and turns out they are always in the top 3 in Boring Ratio as well as Unwatchability Efficiency. 

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Just did a little research and turns out they are always in the top 3 in Boring Ratio as well as Unwatchability Efficiency.

lol this is true, but i like winning.  maybe i just like motion/swing because i grew up watching it...i hated watching Frank offenses because of how sloppy and stagnant it always seemed to me, except in 09-10' when Pullen and Clemente were rediculous. i don't count 07-08 because that season was like having cheat codes.

[sys]

i like wiscy's swing and i like princeton o's.  i don't have anything against motion offenses.  in fact, like fuzzy, i grew up with them and basically think of them as the "right" way to play bball.

i'm just not sure 35 seconds is enough time for average skilled d1 players to break down average d1 defenses.  for that matter, i'm not sure you typically get enough better a shot to compensate for the increased turnover risk of 30 seconds of passing.

ryan's teams never turn the ball over, that's why they're so efficient offensively.  i'm don't think that is typical of motion offenses.

[kim carnes]

Guys, I know a whole helluva a lot about the game of basketball. I'll share a little bit of what I know tomorrow or Sunday.  Have a great weekend!

[CHONGS]

if you like crap posting and stupid arguments then yes this will be a great basketball season for bbs'n

you know clams, kim, chum1, and dax will post nothing but stuff to bait people who liked frank

and sys and trim and mir will post stuff to bait people who like oscar

and sd and 42 will tuck their penises between their legs puff out their chests and stake out a "neutral" position

yawn

[Trim]

Everyone is the best at something.

[CHONGS]

Everyone is the best at something.

I am best at whining about stuff I find stupidly annoying and making stats no one cares about

[MakeItRain]

Multiple players mentioned that Weber is putting more of an early emphasis on offense, while Martin's focus was more at the defensive end, plus there has been a host of new "how to" teaching assignments.

"We're getting some of them to break some habits that they've had for three years," said Weber. "They're not bad habits, but different habits. That includes how you help on defense, where you help, and how you deny and how you defend screens. We just do it differently. They were successful with how they did things, but we do it another way."

Weber added, "There's a saying that it takes 29 days to create a habit, well, we're trying to break some three-year-old habits in a short amount of time."

To be honest, most coaches aren't successful at making both teams play like garbage and somehow coming out on top.  During the Frank years we had no offense except to stand around and watch Beasley/Hoskins/Pullen/Clemente 1v5 the other team.

Completely false, new guy.  lbbiq noted

[MakeItRain]

if you like crap posting and stupid arguments then yes this will be a great basketball season for bbs'n

you know clams, kim, chum1, and dax will post nothing but stuff to bait people who liked frank

and sys and trim and mir will post stuff to bait people who like oscar

and sd and 42 will tuck their penises between their legs puff out their chests and stake out a "neutral" position

yawn

Replace me with rusty, I'm not baiting anything I just want to talk basketball.  Completely disinterested in rehashing Frank vs. oscar over and over.  I may bait posters who post good things about Doc though.  Have I mentioned I hate him?

[MakeItRain]

i like wiscy's swing and i like princeton o's.  i don't have anything against motion offenses.  in fact, like fuzzy, i grew up with them and basically think of them as the "right" way to play bball.

i'm just not sure 35 seconds is enough time for average skilled d1 players to break down average d1 defenses.  for that matter, i'm not sure you typically get enough better a shot to compensate for the increased turnover risk of 30 seconds of passing.

ryan's teams never turn the ball over, that's why they're so efficient offensively.  i'm don't think that is typical of motion offenses.

I'd prefer we had the players to run dribble drive motion, but we don't.  I don't love motion but I can tolerate it if the players have the freedom to create when the opportunity presents itself. I love pinch post, always have, I enjoy any offense that employs high low posts.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Multiple players mentioned that Weber is putting more of an early emphasis on offense, while Martin's focus was more at the defensive end, plus there has been a host of new "how to" teaching assignments.

"We're getting some of them to break some habits that they've had for three years," said Weber. "They're not bad habits, but different habits. That includes how you help on defense, where you help, and how you deny and how you defend screens. We just do it differently. They were successful with how they did things, but we do it another way."

Weber added, "There's a saying that it takes 29 days to create a habit, well, we're trying to break some three-year-old habits in a short amount of time."

To be honest, most coaches aren't successful at making both teams play like garbage and somehow coming out on top.  During the Frank years we had no offense except to stand around and watch Beasley/Hoskins/Pullen/Clemente 1v5 the other team.

Completely false, new guy.  lbbiq noted

I really don't understand what Frank was trying to run on offense, please explain so I can raise my LBBIQ.  Whatever the plan was, it didn't work. Our offense was bad 3 of the 5 years, and one of the good years was due to having one of the best Big12 players ever and a not-bad supporting cast.

[MakeItRain]

Multiple players mentioned that Weber is putting more of an early emphasis on offense, while Martin's focus was more at the defensive end, plus there has been a host of new "how to" teaching assignments.

"We're getting some of them to break some habits that they've had for three years," said Weber. "They're not bad habits, but different habits. That includes how you help on defense, where you help, and how you deny and how you defend screens. We just do it differently. They were successful with how they did things, but we do it another way."

Weber added, "There's a saying that it takes 29 days to create a habit, well, we're trying to break some three-year-old habits in a short amount of time."

To be honest, most coaches aren't successful at making both teams play like garbage and somehow coming out on top.  During the Frank years we had no offense except to stand around and watch Beasley/Hoskins/Pullen/Clemente 1v5 the other team.

Completely false, new guy.  lbbiq noted

I really don't understand what Frank was trying to run on offense, please explain so I can raise my LBBIQ.  Whatever the plan was, it didn't work. Our offense was bad 3 of the 5 years, and one of the good years was due to having one of the best Big12 players ever and a not-bad supporting cast.

We ran iso sets a lot.  Our offense was actually quite complex.  Gottlieb mentioned our complex offense, and that was before we went to pinch  post.  Our offense was also broken down by Luke Winn, you can look it up on this site somewhere, I'm not doing the leg work to disprove your lazy and frankly tuckish assertion.

What little credibility you had you lost when you said we had bad offenses 3 of the 5 years.  Using whatever objective statistical metric you want to use, we never had a bad offense.  Those three years you are talking about our overall offensive numbers placed us in the middle of the conference and the upper third of all of D1, that's average at worst.  If our offense was bad, what exactly would you call those Big 10 motion abortions?

Getting your basketball talking points from Bob Knight won't fly on this board.

[michigancat]

Multiple players mentioned that Weber is putting more of an early emphasis on offense, while Martin's focus was more at the defensive end, plus there has been a host of new "how to" teaching assignments.

"We're getting some of them to break some habits that they've had for three years," said Weber. "They're not bad habits, but different habits. That includes how you help on defense, where you help, and how you deny and how you defend screens. We just do it differently. They were successful with how they did things, but we do it another way."

Weber added, "There's a saying that it takes 29 days to create a habit, well, we're trying to break some three-year-old habits in a short amount of time."

To be honest, most coaches aren't successful at making both teams play like garbage and somehow coming out on top.  During the Frank years we had no offense except to stand around and watch Beasley/Hoskins/Pullen/Clemente 1v5 the other team.

Completely false, new guy.  lbbiq noted

I really don't understand what Frank was trying to run on offense, please explain so I can raise my LBBIQ.  Whatever the plan was, it didn't work. Our offense was bad 3 of the 5 years, and one of the good years was due to having one of the best Big12 players ever and a not-bad supporting cast.

Here is how Frank's teams ranked in the Big 12 for offensive efficiency in conference games:

2008: 2nd
2009: 8th
2010: 5th
2011: 5th
2012: 6th


Weber in the Big 10 over the same period:

2008: 7th
2009: 10th
2010: 5th
2011: 4th
2012: 10th

[BWebbs0]

Multiple players mentioned that Weber is putting more of an early emphasis on offense, while Martin's focus was more at the defensive end, plus there has been a host of new "how to" teaching assignments.

"We're getting some of them to break some habits that they've had for three years," said Weber. "They're not bad habits, but different habits. That includes how you help on defense, where you help, and how you deny and how you defend screens. We just do it differently. They were successful with how they did things, but we do it another way."

Weber added, "There's a saying that it takes 29 days to create a habit, well, we're trying to break some three-year-old habits in a short amount of time."

To be honest, most coaches aren't successful at making both teams play like garbage and somehow coming out on top.  During the Frank years we had no offense except to stand around and watch Beasley/Hoskins/Pullen/Clemente 1v5 the other team.

Completely false, new guy.  lbbiq noted

I really don't understand what Frank was trying to run on offense, please explain so I can raise my LBBIQ.  Whatever the plan was, it didn't work. Our offense was bad 3 of the 5 years, and one of the good years was due to having one of the best Big12 players ever and a not-bad supporting cast.

Here is how Frank's teams ranked in the Big 12 for offensive efficiency in conference games:

2008: 2nd
2009: 8th
2010: 5th
2011: 5th
2012: 6th


Weber in the Big 10 over the same period:

2008: 7th
2009: 10th
2010: 5th
2011: 4th
2012: 10th

Yeah, but...Webbs went to the NCAA Final Four and nearly won the thing in 2004. We got him now, bring on the titles! 

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Multiple players mentioned that Weber is putting more of an early emphasis on offense, while Martin's focus was more at the defensive end, plus there has been a host of new "how to" teaching assignments.

"We're getting some of them to break some habits that they've had for three years," said Weber. "They're not bad habits, but different habits. That includes how you help on defense, where you help, and how you deny and how you defend screens. We just do it differently. They were successful with how they did things, but we do it another way."

Weber added, "There's a saying that it takes 29 days to create a habit, well, we're trying to break some three-year-old habits in a short amount of time."

To be honest, most coaches aren't successful at making both teams play like garbage and somehow coming out on top.  During the Frank years we had no offense except to stand around and watch Beasley/Hoskins/Pullen/Clemente 1v5 the other team.

Completely false, new guy.  lbbiq noted

I really don't understand what Frank was trying to run on offense, please explain so I can raise my LBBIQ.  Whatever the plan was, it didn't work. Our offense was bad 3 of the 5 years, and one of the good years was due to having one of the best Big12 players ever and a not-bad supporting cast.

We ran iso sets a lot.  Our offense was actually quite complex.  Gottlieb mentioned our complex offense, and that was before we went to pinch  post.  Our offense was also broken down by Luke Winn, you can look it up on this site somewhere, I'm not doing the leg work to disprove your lazy and frankly tuckish assertion.

What little credibility you had you lost when you said we had bad offenses 3 of the 5 years.  Using whatever objective statistical metric you want to use, we never had a bad offense.  Those three years you are talking about our overall offensive numbers placed us in the middle of the conference and the upper third of all of D1, that's average at worst.  If our offense was bad, what exactly would you call those Big 10 motion abortions?

Getting your basketball talking points from Bob Knight won't fly on this board.

ok i will find the Gottlieb thing.  Pretty sure i mentioned running isolation before, although somewhat derisively.  By 'bad' i mean not close to top 25, which i think should be the goal.  The majority of D1 basketball teams are not competitive, so being in the upper third of all 347 team is not close to good, imo.

I'm sure you guys know all these stats already but it was a good read for me:
http://www.bloguin.com/runthefloor/2012-articles/march/evaluating-oscar-weber-to-kansas-state.html

Frank offense:  Throw up the first available shot(although maybe Gottlieb can enlighten me) and get offensive rebound.  Having a Michael Beasley or two very good guards(Pullen/Clemente) able to create their own looks makes that first shot percentage go way up, giving us an "elite" offense.  Maybe his offense was really complex, but in the three years we didn't have Michael Beasley or two very good guards, the effectiveness of our offense was ranked 47-65(mediocre-bad).  Free throw shooting was terrible all years, which is magnified when you are such a good rebounding team and shoot as many free throws as Frank teams do. Solid defense.

oscar offense:  Numbers on offense looks pretty bad when he didn't have a team of all-americans.  Nothing to say here.  Solid defense and free throw shooting.

Final Over-Simplified Comparison
Frank: Rebounding and Pressure
oscar: Defense and Control

[michigancat]

Doing the same exercise for Frank's conference only defense:

2008: 2nd
2009: 6th
2010: 3rd
2011: 3rd
2012: 2nd

And for oscar:

2008: 5th
2009: 1st
2010: 6th
2011: 2nd
2012: 6th


I mean, I think fuzzy understands possession-free stats, but he just chooses to ignore them.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Doing the same exercise for Frank's conference only defense:

2008: 2nd
2009: 6th
2010: 3rd
2011: 3rd
2012: 2nd

And for oscar:

2008: 5th
2009: 1st
2010: 6th
2011: 2nd
2012: 6th


I mean, I think fuzzy understands possession-free stats, but he just chooses to ignore them.

apples to oranges?

lets see,
i understand that it is good to use stats like points per possession instead of points per game when comparing two teams
because each game is made of a different number of possessions, but a possession is the same from game to game.
how am i doing?  maybe you want me to take out the free-throw references? but they effect efficiency and i would imagine correlate strongly with coaching, so i think its ok to mention.

also, to elaborate on why I consider offenses ranked 47-65 to be bad, consider that there are only 74 power conference teams plus lets say 20 strong mid-majors.  now, I haven't studied how kenpom adjusts offensive efficiency, so I'm not sure how many not-so-good teams from bad conferences have artificially high efficiency or how many ok teams from strong conferences have artificially low efficiency.*  In any regard, even the best of those years puts our offense at a rank of 47.  When only ~90-95 teams, and this is a generous estimate, can actually be considered relevant I would not consider that to be good.

* ok, its all here: http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/help_with_team_page/  So unless I find some big opponent-bias hidden in the adjusted efficiency, I see no problem with reducing the field to ~90-95.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

If our offense was bad, what exactly would you call those Big 10 motion abortions?

Since you asked, here's the adjusted efficiency rank(kenpom) for the last 10 years of the Big 10 motion abortion school i'm most familiar with:

2012: 18,
2011: 2
2010: 17
2009: 36
2008: 28
2007: 26
2006: 46
2005: 30
2004: 13
2003: 20

By my standards, 2006 was the only mediocre-to-bad season they had.  2009 was ok.  the rest were good to very good.

[Kat Kid]

I didn't read any of the first 15 pages, because I'm 100% sure they are as worthless as 99% of the coal aggie thread.  Good work stupids.

[steve dave]

I'll tuck your penis chings you rough ridin' bad person!

[MakeItRain]

If our offense was bad, what exactly would you call those Big 10 motion abortions?

Since you asked, here's the adjusted efficiency rank(kenpom) for the last 10 years of the Big 10 motion abortion school i'm most familiar with:

2012: 18,
2011: 2
2010: 17
2009: 36
2008: 28
2007: 26
2006: 46
2005: 30
2004: 13
2003: 20

By my standards, 2006 was the only mediocre-to-bad season they had.  2009 was ok.  the rest were good to very good.

Intellectual dishonesty.  We all know full well that Wisconsin is far and away the Big 10s most efficient offense, they are an anomaly and certainly you knew I was excluding them from any slam on Big 10 offenses, even though Wisconsin is also painful to watch.

Calling any offense not around the top 25 bad is ridiculous.  Top 40 offenses are elite offenses, you don't drop off from elite to bad.  K-State never had a bad offense under Frank Martin.

[steve dave]

yeah, anytime someone brings up wisconsin in a comparison I immediately discount whatever it is they are saying. weird outlier program.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

for another Big 10 motion abortion success story, lets look at Beilein's success at Couch Burn U and more recently at UM.  this style is actually pretty different from Bucky, and I would say one of the most deeply pleasurable motion offenses to watch.  It also features a lot of players wearing t-shirts, which suits Spradling perfectly.

adjusted off eff. (kenpom)
MU Years:
2012: 22
2011: 31
2010: 94
2009: 44
2008: 148

Couch Burning Years
2007: 13
2006: 12
2005: 18
2004: 82
2003: 139

At both schools he took over very bad offensive teams, had a brief stop in we're-not-terrible-anymore-but-we-aren't-good-either land, and finally progressed to being a very good offensive team from year to year.

This doesn't mean oscar is a good coach because he tries to be like Bo and Beilein, but it does show that motion offenses can be consistently good even with recruiting classes that are nothing to write home about.  Where we draw the bad-good line is ultimately arbitrary and you seem pretty set on Frank-as-infallible-offensive-mastermind, so not much point arguing here.

[0.42]

if you like crap posting and stupid arguments then yes this will be a great basketball season for bbs'n

you know clams, kim, chum1, and dax will post nothing but stuff to bait people who liked frank

and sys and trim and mir will post stuff to bait people who like oscar

and sd and 42 will tuck their penises between their legs puff out their chests and stake out a "neutral" position

yawn

I'll have you know that Tommy Tuberville is a punk-ass bitch.

[CHONGS]

if you like crap posting and stupid arguments then yes this will be a great basketball season for bbs'n

you know clams, kim, chum1, and dax will post nothing but stuff to bait people who liked frank

and sys and trim and mir will post stuff to bait people who like oscar

and sd and 42 will tuck their penises between their legs puff out their chests and stake out a "neutral" position

yawn

I'll have you know that Tommy Tuberville is a punk-ass bitch.

good to see you at least have a position on something