Author Topic: Unions  (Read 6522 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cartierfor3

  • Fattyfest Champion
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 27689
  • I just want us all to be buds.
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2012, 12:12:40 PM »
Why do conservatives hate them? They prefer low wages without benefits?

Why do libs assume that everything is all or nothing?

Offline TheHamburglar

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5969
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2012, 12:17:34 PM »
I've worked in a non-union manufacturing shop for 5 years while all of my customers were unions.  There was nothing more infuriating that working our asses off for a week for a "hot" part that an aircraft was waiting on, flying our corporate jet down to make sure it got there and be there when it got installed, only to watch it sit for 3 hours because mechanic that was supposed to install it was missing a few fastoners and we couldn't walk 75 feet down the building to get them because that wasn't his job and the union had a person specified to do that job.  No one in their management could walk down and grab it because they would get a union complaint filed against them.
I got a guy on the other line about some white walls

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 40815
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2012, 12:35:16 PM »
there is a significant distinction between public and private unions, imo.  including private unions that benefit from public pro-union mandates (like any project recieving public money must use union labor, etc.).  employees have a legitimate interest in collectively organizing to receive fair treatment from private employers.  that relationship is not the same when dealing with public entities, as the unions can, under certain circumstances, influence government decisions relating to employee/union treatment.  it's the flip side of crony capitalism - when an entity controls, or at least influences, both sides of a negotiation between nominally opposing camps, that negotiation is inherently corrupted.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline Institutional Control

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15571
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2012, 12:45:29 PM »
Why do conservatives hate them? They prefer low wages without benefits?

Why do libs assume that everything is all or nothing?

I can't speak for all libs, for me I assume it's my simple mind.

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 55959
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2012, 12:51:45 PM »
I've worked in a non-union manufacturing shop for 5 years while all of my customers were unions.  There was nothing more infuriating that working our asses off for a week for a "hot" part that an aircraft was waiting on, flying our corporate jet down to make sure it got there and be there when it got installed, only to watch it sit for 3 hours because mechanic that was supposed to install it was missing a few fastoners and we couldn't walk 75 feet down the building to get them because that wasn't his job and the union had a person specified to do that job.  No one in their management could walk down and grab it because they would get a union complaint filed against them.

You can choose to not work with union companies. Go to another industry if it's that big of a deal.

Offline TheHamburglar

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5969
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2012, 12:59:52 PM »
I've worked in a non-union manufacturing shop for 5 years while all of my customers were unions.  There was nothing more infuriating that working our asses off for a week for a "hot" part that an aircraft was waiting on, flying our corporate jet down to make sure it got there and be there when it got installed, only to watch it sit for 3 hours because mechanic that was supposed to install it was missing a few fastoners and we couldn't walk 75 feet down the building to get them because that wasn't his job and the union had a person specified to do that job.  No one in their management could walk down and grab it because they would get a union complaint filed against them.

You can choose to not work with union companies. Go to another industry if it's that big of a deal.

This doesn't change the fact that there are alot of manufacturing union shops and they can be giant productivity drains.  Me not working with them (I don't anymore) doesn't mean they don't exist.
I got a guy on the other line about some white walls

Offline Stupid Fitz

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 6839
  • Go Cats
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2012, 01:02:44 PM »
I don't like them because it isn't 1924 and they are unnecessary in today's society.

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 55959
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2012, 01:04:54 PM »
I've worked in a non-union manufacturing shop for 5 years while all of my customers were unions.  There was nothing more infuriating that working our asses off for a week for a "hot" part that an aircraft was waiting on, flying our corporate jet down to make sure it got there and be there when it got installed, only to watch it sit for 3 hours because mechanic that was supposed to install it was missing a few fastoners and we couldn't walk 75 feet down the building to get them because that wasn't his job and the union had a person specified to do that job.  No one in their management could walk down and grab it because they would get a union complaint filed against them.

You can choose to not work with union companies. Go to another industry if it's that big of a deal.

This doesn't change the fact that there are alot of manufacturing union shops and they can be giant productivity drains.  Me not working with them (I don't anymore) doesn't mean they don't exist.

If the union shops weren't productive enough they wouldn't be in business. free market and whatnot.

Offline TheHamburglar

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5969
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2012, 01:07:14 PM »
I've worked in a non-union manufacturing shop for 5 years while all of my customers were unions.  There was nothing more infuriating that working our asses off for a week for a "hot" part that an aircraft was waiting on, flying our corporate jet down to make sure it got there and be there when it got installed, only to watch it sit for 3 hours because mechanic that was supposed to install it was missing a few fastoners and we couldn't walk 75 feet down the building to get them because that wasn't his job and the union had a person specified to do that job.  No one in their management could walk down and grab it because they would get a union complaint filed against them.

You can choose to not work with union companies. Go to another industry if it's that big of a deal.

This doesn't change the fact that there are alot of manufacturing union shops and they can be giant productivity drains.  Me not working with them (I don't anymore) doesn't mean they don't exist.

If the union shops weren't productive enough they wouldn't be in business. free market and whatnot.

You mean like Ford and GM that weren't productive enough to stay in business, but our government said eff the free market and bailed them out otherwise they probably wouldn't be in business because they lost sales to Toyotas being built in Alabama?

Or how about that Hawker Beechcraft plant in Salina that used to employee 600?  The one they closed down in an effort to save HBC, but HBC had to file for bankruptcy anyway and are being bought by a Chinese company.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 01:11:01 PM by TheHamburglar »
I got a guy on the other line about some white walls

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 38010
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2012, 01:08:36 PM »
I've worked in a non-union manufacturing shop for 5 years while all of my customers were unions.  There was nothing more infuriating that working our asses off for a week for a "hot" part that an aircraft was waiting on, flying our corporate jet down to make sure it got there and be there when it got installed, only to watch it sit for 3 hours because mechanic that was supposed to install it was missing a few fastoners and we couldn't walk 75 feet down the building to get them because that wasn't his job and the union had a person specified to do that job.  No one in their management could walk down and grab it because they would get a union complaint filed against them.

You can choose to not work with union companies. Go to another industry if it's that big of a deal.

This doesn't change the fact that there are alot of manufacturing union shops and they can be giant productivity drains.  Me not working with them (I don't anymore) doesn't mean they don't exist.

If the union shops weren't productive enough they wouldn't be in business. free market and whatnot.

You mean like Ford and GM that weren't productive enough to stay in business, but our government said eff the free market and bailed them out otherwise they probably wouldn't be in business?

Ford was not bailed out. GM is a good point, though.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 38010
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2012, 01:11:17 PM »
I don't like them because it isn't 1924 and they are unnecessary in today's society.

They might not be necessary with the amount of government regulation that we have today, but if a company's employees want to unionize, I say go ahead and knock yourselves out, guys.

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 55959
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2012, 01:12:55 PM »
I've worked in a non-union manufacturing shop for 5 years while all of my customers were unions.  There was nothing more infuriating that working our asses off for a week for a "hot" part that an aircraft was waiting on, flying our corporate jet down to make sure it got there and be there when it got installed, only to watch it sit for 3 hours because mechanic that was supposed to install it was missing a few fastoners and we couldn't walk 75 feet down the building to get them because that wasn't his job and the union had a person specified to do that job.  No one in their management could walk down and grab it because they would get a union complaint filed against them.

You can choose to not work with union companies. Go to another industry if it's that big of a deal.

This doesn't change the fact that there are alot of manufacturing union shops and they can be giant productivity drains.  Me not working with them (I don't anymore) doesn't mean they don't exist.

If the union shops weren't productive enough they wouldn't be in business. free market and whatnot.

You mean like Ford and GM that weren't productive enough to stay in business, but our government said eff the free market and bailed them out otherwise they probably wouldn't be in business because they lost sales to Toyotas being built in Alabama?

Or how about that Hawker Beechcraft plant in Salina that used to employee 600?  The one they closed down in an effort to save HBC, but HBC had to file for bankruptcy anyway and are being bought by a Chinese company.

yeah pretty much. Why would you have a problem with a Chinese company owning HBC?

Offline TheHamburglar

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5969
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2012, 01:16:12 PM »
I've worked in a non-union manufacturing shop for 5 years while all of my customers were unions.  There was nothing more infuriating that working our asses off for a week for a "hot" part that an aircraft was waiting on, flying our corporate jet down to make sure it got there and be there when it got installed, only to watch it sit for 3 hours because mechanic that was supposed to install it was missing a few fastoners and we couldn't walk 75 feet down the building to get them because that wasn't his job and the union had a person specified to do that job.  No one in their management could walk down and grab it because they would get a union complaint filed against them.

You can choose to not work with union companies. Go to another industry if it's that big of a deal.

This doesn't change the fact that there are alot of manufacturing union shops and they can be giant productivity drains.  Me not working with them (I don't anymore) doesn't mean they don't exist.

If the union shops weren't productive enough they wouldn't be in business. free market and whatnot.

You mean like Ford and GM that weren't productive enough to stay in business, but our government said eff the free market and bailed them out otherwise they probably wouldn't be in business because they lost sales to Toyotas being built in Alabama?

Or how about that Hawker Beechcraft plant in Salina that used to employee 600?  The one they closed down in an effort to save HBC, but HBC had to file for bankruptcy anyway and are being bought by a Chinese company.

yeah pretty much. Why would you have a problem with a Chinese company owning HBC?

Because all of those jobs are going to end up in China or Mexico or somewhere else.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 01:20:37 PM by TheHamburglar »
I got a guy on the other line about some white walls

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 55959
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2012, 01:18:18 PM »
Because all of those jobs are going to end up in China or Mexico or somewhere else.

so what? They weren't productive enough. people in China gotta eat, too.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 38010
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2012, 01:23:01 PM »
I've worked in a non-union manufacturing shop for 5 years while all of my customers were unions.  There was nothing more infuriating that working our asses off for a week for a "hot" part that an aircraft was waiting on, flying our corporate jet down to make sure it got there and be there when it got installed, only to watch it sit for 3 hours because mechanic that was supposed to install it was missing a few fastoners and we couldn't walk 75 feet down the building to get them because that wasn't his job and the union had a person specified to do that job.  No one in their management could walk down and grab it because they would get a union complaint filed against them.

You can choose to not work with union companies. Go to another industry if it's that big of a deal.

This doesn't change the fact that there are alot of manufacturing union shops and they can be giant productivity drains.  Me not working with them (I don't anymore) doesn't mean they don't exist.

If the union shops weren't productive enough they wouldn't be in business. free market and whatnot.

You mean like Ford and GM that weren't productive enough to stay in business, but our government said eff the free market and bailed them out otherwise they probably wouldn't be in business because they lost sales to Toyotas being built in Alabama?

Or how about that Hawker Beechcraft plant in Salina that used to employee 600?  The one they closed down in an effort to save HBC, but HBC had to file for bankruptcy anyway and are being bought by a Chinese company.

yeah pretty much. Why would you have a problem with a Chinese company owning HBC?

Because all of those jobs are going to end up in China or Mexico or somewhere else.

The Japanese own Toyota and they employ a shitload of Americans. There are way more factors involved than just individual wages here. Education level, work habits, distribution costs, tariffs, etc. all play a major role.

Offline AST

  • nip nip weiner
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 3383
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2012, 10:06:18 PM »
I think it's because unions suck, that's why they're hated.  Lot's of college grads are out of work and people are going to walk out when their guaranteed salaries with kick-ass benefits and 2 months of vacation and sick leave a year are not good enough.  How about we try a little free market again in this country?

Unions should be temporary, to address specific gross "wrongs" when they might arise in a marketplace, like chicago meat packing, coal mining, childr labor.  It should not be something you are born or married into and set for life.

Yea, I just said a big f.u. to auto workers, carpenters and pipe fitters, DEAL WITH IT!  Someone else will do your job for less you lazy m.f.'ers!

Offline Kat Kid

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 20997
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2012, 10:31:15 PM »
I think it's because unions suck, that's why they're hated.  Lot's of college grads are out of work and people are going to walk out when their guaranteed salaries with kick-ass benefits and 2 months of vacation and sick leave a year are not good enough.  How about we try a little free market again in this country?

Unions should be temporary, to address specific gross "wrongs" when they might arise in a marketplace, like chicago meat packing, coal mining, childr labor.  It should not be something you are born or married into and set for life.

Yea, I just said a big f.u. to auto workers, carpenters and pipe fitters, DEAL WITH IT!  Someone else will do your job for less you lazy m.f.'ers!

Speaking from experience, being born into a union is basically like modern day slavery.

Offline AST

  • nip nip weiner
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 3383
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2012, 10:51:53 PM »
I think it's because unions suck, that's why they're hated.  Lot's of college grads are out of work and people are going to walk out when their guaranteed salaries with kick-ass benefits and 2 months of vacation and sick leave a year are not good enough.  How about we try a little free market again in this country?

Unions should be temporary, to address specific gross "wrongs" when they might arise in a marketplace, like chicago meat packing, coal mining, childr labor.  It should not be something you are born or married into and set for life.

Yea, I just said a big f.u. to auto workers, carpenters and pipe fitters, DEAL WITH IT!  Someone else will do your job for less you lazy m.f.'ers!

Speaking from experience, being born into a union is basically like modern day slavery.

In what way?  Please elaborate if you don't mind.

Offline p1k3

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2555
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2012, 10:53:24 PM »
The so called "Union Thugs" make a ton of money. You can search their LM-2 filing with the Department of Labor for any union in the nation.

The problem is that most union employees are  :dubious: at the companies they work for for being greedy bastards, but in reality the union thugs are raking it the eff in. Most of them don't know or care that this is public information, and if they did they wouldn't do anything to change it anyway.

Offline p1k3

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2555
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2012, 11:07:44 PM »
UAW AFL-CIO had over $1,000,000,000 in assets in 2011  :sdeek:

No wonder GM can't keep it's head above water.

Offline raquetcat

  • PCKK7DC Survivor
  • Katpak'r
  • *******
  • Posts: 1957
  • ^ I let us down
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2012, 11:13:10 AM »
Imo a union's purpose is to protect it's members from abuse by an employer, and help negotiate fair (very debatable term) wages and benefits for it's employees. I've worked with unions that have done exactly that and the company and union got along great, (also heard of many stories like hamburglar mentioned). It's when the company or the union turns into greedy bastards that there becomes problems. If a union demands too much then it shouldn't be a surprise if the company goes out of business or has to lay people off, the same with businesses being greedy and having to deal with a strike.
I'm purple down

Offline steve dave

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 88576
  • Romantic Fist Attachment
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2012, 11:18:41 AM »
UAW AFL-CIO had over $1,000,000,000 in assets in 2011  :sdeek:

No wonder GM can't keep it's head above water.

how much of that was pension funds?