Author Topic: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile  (Read 8573 times)

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2012, 11:21:23 AM »
That's exactly my issue with the quote and the take in general.  It isn't about Wichita State, they clearly aren't lose-lose, he's playing Gonzaga in Seattle for goodness sakes.  My issue is that Weber is afraid of losing to Wichita State and that's a problem for me.  Losing to a high RPI mid major shouldn't be something that has the potential danger of wrecking your program.  Was Bill Self afraid of losing to Davidson in Kansas City?  When it happened it really killed KU's season last year huh?

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2012, 11:32:40 AM »
That's exactly my issue with the quote and the take in general.  It isn't about Wichita State, they clearly aren't lose-lose, he's playing Gonzaga in Seattle for goodness sakes.  My issue is that Weber is afraid of losing to Wichita State and that's a problem for me.  Losing to a high RPI mid major shouldn't be something that has the potential danger of wrecking your program.  Was Bill Self afraid of losing to Davidson in Kansas City?  When it happened it really killed KU's season last year huh?

Whether its fair or not, I think coaches make a bigger deal about it when the mid-major is in the same state. K-State coaches have been saying this since Wooly turned down a 3 for 2 deal with Wichita State back in the day. I don't think Frank said anything publically about it, but I think he felt the same way. I'm sure Weber would say the SIU game was a special case, but that was the best equivalent example from his time there.

It helps that SIU was pretty terrible. And certainly losing to Bradley and UIC didn't help him with the fans, so I'm sure that factors into the lose-lose.

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2012, 11:54:35 AM »
And _FAN, I am ok with never playing UMKC ever again.  But if we do, I will be totally pumped for that game.

I stayed to the end of that game...and I was cheering for UMKC to get to 100.

Offline Belvis Noland

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2012, 12:03:26 PM »

My issue is that Weber is afraid of losing to Wichita State and that's a problem for me.  Losing to a high RPI mid major shouldn't be something that has the potential danger of wrecking your program. 


Don't have a problem with it.  Losing to a high RPI mid-major program from California is one thing.  Losing to an in-state mid-major is another thing.  KU and K-State don't play WSU.  Don't want to lose to em.  Weber's no different than Frank, Self, Roy, etc.     

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2012, 12:05:35 PM »
I think Frank would have played WSU if he didn't have to play them at Koch Arena or Intrust Bank Arena as a part of the WSU season ticket package.  Not sure oscar feels the same way.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2012, 12:09:51 PM »

My issue is that Weber is afraid of losing to Wichita State and that's a problem for me.  Losing to a high RPI mid major shouldn't be something that has the potential danger of wrecking your program. 


Don't have a problem with it.  Losing to a high RPI mid-major program from California is one thing.  Losing to an in-state mid-major is another thing.  KU and K-State don't play WSU.  Don't want to lose to em.  Weber's no different than Frank, Self, Roy, etc.     

Unless you're recruiting against those schools it doesn't make a measurable difference.  I'm not sure it would in recruiting either, if it did you have many other issues outside of losing to Wichita State.  Fan bragging rights is the only potential issue and coached shouldn't be concerned with such things when scheduling.  The Illinois/Missouri games were far more potentially damaging to Illinois than playing SIU.

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Offline steve dave

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2012, 12:29:15 PM »
I think Frank would have played WSU if he didn't have to play them at Koch Arena or Intrust Bank Arena as a part of the WSU season ticket package.  Not sure oscar feels the same way.

I don't think he would have

Offline steve dave

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2012, 12:30:33 PM »
What do you dumbasses know? http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/58565/top-ten-thursday-coaching-hires

lol at Larry Brown being 10th.  especially after his assistant coach hires. 

Offline pissclams

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2012, 12:32:09 PM »
well you can definitely tell its the off season. who honestly gives a eff about this?

posters of substance

My goodness, speaking of butthurt.  Go find your bottle, or your teddy bear or get your diaper changed.  Whatever the source of your infant like whining is, resolve it.

"infant like whining" substantially sums up this stupid little thread you started.  so, congrats to you for that, dr. substance. 

of course you'll violently disagree, but everyone else here can see it.  we know.

and :lol: at _FAN completely clown suiting you.  my guess is that the deep dive you did on oscar's scheduling at Illinois, on your way to this substantive post, would have covered all of _FAN's points. so why did you leave them out of your OP??  only you know but i'm sure there was a good reason.


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Offline beefpac

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2012, 12:40:26 PM »
Shouldn't the concern be playing in Wichita rather than just playing against WSU?  I could care less about WSU, but think that making ourselves known in Wichita would be a good thing for recruiting, no?  Not that KS has a bunch of recruiting hotbeds, but I would say Wichita is one of the better ones in the state, no?  Could Beasley playing in front of Perry Ellis changed a thing or two? 

Overall, not a big deal and I'm definatley not butthurt over it, I just see some value with playing in Wichita no matter who it is.  I liked the WV game being there, I hope we can find a way to have a game there every year.  Would be cool to play South Carolina or Illinois there but I know neither would happen. 
"Ever heard of that one, Stan?"

Offline steve dave

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2012, 12:43:14 PM »
Shouldn't the concern be playing in Wichita rather than just playing against WSU?  I could care less about WSU, but think that making ourselves known in Wichita would be a good thing for recruiting, no?  Not that KS has a bunch of recruiting hotbeds, but I would say Wichita is one of the better ones in the state, no?  Could Beasley playing in front of Perry Ellis changed a thing or two? 

no. no. no. no.

Offline beefpac

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2012, 12:44:00 PM »
Shouldn't the concern be playing in Wichita rather than just playing against WSU?  I could care less about WSU, but think that making ourselves known in Wichita would be a good thing for recruiting, no?  Not that KS has a bunch of recruiting hotbeds, but I would say Wichita is one of the better ones in the state, no?  Could Beasley playing in front of Perry Ellis changed a thing or two? 

no. no. no. no.

Oh. 
"Ever heard of that one, Stan?"

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Offline beefpac

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2012, 12:47:31 PM »
What do you dumbasses know? http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/58565/top-ten-thursday-coaching-hires

Why be happy with 3rd when 1st was avail?

If if makes you feel any better, if #1 never happened, we would have never been #3.   :dunno:
"Ever heard of that one, Stan?"

Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2012, 01:03:00 PM »
we don't play wichita because we don't have to and we know they want to, so it's funny and makes us feel even more superior to be like "lol you want to play us? uh, haha but no." then we get to laugh, high five, down a micro and go hike the kanza.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2012, 01:04:51 PM »
well you can definitely tell its the off season. who honestly gives a eff about this?

posters of substance

My goodness, speaking of butthurt.  Go find your bottle, or your teddy bear or get your diaper changed.  Whatever the source of your infant like whining is, resolve it.

"infant like whining" substantially sums up this stupid little thread you started.  so, congrats to you for that, dr. substance. 

of course you'll violently disagree, but everyone else here can see it.  we know.

and :lol: at _FAN completely clown suiting you.  my guess is that the deep dive you did on oscar's scheduling at Illinois, on your way to this substantive post, would have covered all of _FAN's points. so why did you leave them out of your OP??  only you know but i'm sure there was a good reason.

Pretty sure I said that _fan had a very good point about Illinois' schedule.  If the thread is so stupid, stop posting in it.  Go start a thread about pumpkin bongs or something.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2012, 01:09:09 PM »
Anyone have a ESPN account? http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/story?id=7932612&_slug_=kansas-state-wildcats-sweet-16-team-oscar-weber-first-season-cbb&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb%2fstory%3fid%3d7932612%26_slug_%3dkansas-state-wildcats-sweet-16-team-oscar-weber-first-season-cbb

Just Gasaway being Gasaway.  This team doesn't have Sweet 16 potential, if they don't make the Sweet 16 its a step either laterally or back.

 K-State could surprise in 2012-13

The Wildcats have Sweet 16 potential in oscar Weber's first season

By John Gasaway | ESPN Insider

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Bo Rader/Wichita Eagle/MCT via Getty Images oscar Weber landed in a plum position at Kansas State with a team made for March.

When Frank Martin announced on March 27 that he was leaving Kansas State to take the job at South Carolina, one thing was immediately apparent: Some lucky coach would be handed a very good situation in Manhattan, Kan. After all, Martin was leaving behind a veteran roster, one that reached the round of 32 in the NCAA tournament before bowing out to top seed Syracuse.

It turns out the lucky coach is none other than oscar Weber. After nine seasons at Illinois, Weber was fired because his program's on-the-court performance had registered a long, slow decline since the Illini made an appearance in the 2005 national championship game.

Major-conference head coaches who are fired don't usually turn around and land another major-conference gig with a team that's a perennial NCAA tournament participant. But Weber has a sterling reputation in the profession as not only a good X's and O's coach but also as a rock-solid citizen and straight shooter. In all of those qualities, he figures to be a good "fit" in Manhattan. If any coach deserves a golden opportunity like this after a 6-12 season in-conference, it could be Weber. And the fact that no K-State players have (as of yet) elected to transfer can itself be seen as a vote of confidence in the new coach.

So put me down as agreeing wholeheartedly with my colleague Jason King: "Weber couldn't have walked into a better situation." In fact, there's good reason to believe that this season's Wildcats squad could be better than the 2011-12 edition -- and possibly develop into a Sweet 16-caliber team.

Just look at the numbers. The Wildcats return 87 percent of their possession minutes from last season. Jamar Samuels is the only player not coming back from last year's 22-11 team.

In King's story, Weber said he'd given his players the following message: "You won [under Martin] because of rebounding, toughness and defense. Don't lose that." As an aside, Weber then voiced an intention to introduce "a little more offensive [structure]." "Offensive structure" in this case means Weber's motion offense.

When the motion offense clicks, it's a thing of beauty (think Illinois in 2005 with Deron Williams, Dee Brown and Luther Head), and Weber likes to get things clicking with helpful suggestions from the sideline. Indeed, anyone who thinks there will be less yelling under Weber than there was under the notoriously vocal Martin doesn't know the new K-State coach very well. With Weber, however, the yelling is more often tactical than disciplinary. I've sat along press row within a few feet of Weber during a game, and what one hears most often when his team has the ball is "MOVE!" and "SCREEN AND RESCREEN!"

All the movement and screening should be good news for Rodney McGruder. If there's such a thing as a breakout senior, my money's on McGruder to earn that label in 2012-13. He didn't get a lot of attention last season, but the 6-foot-4 wing made his shots not only from the field (he drained half his 2s and 39 percent of his 3s) but also from the line, where he was an 80 percent shooter.

McGruder gives Weber a nice foundation to build around on offense, and 7-footers Jordan Henriquez and Adrian Diaz certainly give the new coach all the size he could ask for. Thomas Gipson is listed at a mere 6-7, but he rebounds at both ends of the floor with a tenacity that any coach can love. Will Spradling, Angel Rodriguez and Martavious Irving give Weber plenty of experience in the backcourt. And newcomer Michael Orris, a 6-2 incoming freshman from Chicago, characterizes himself as "a pass-first, old-school point guard." There should be plenty of talent for Weber to work with in his first year in Manhattan.

That being said, this is going to be a fascinating collision to watch in terms of style. The things that Kansas State was really good at last season -- grabbing offensive rebounds and forcing opponents to commit turnovers -- are precisely the things that, historically speaking, Weber does not like his teams to do. (So Weber's sound bite, quoted above, requires a slight revision. He should have told his new team, "You won because of offensive rebounding, toughness and defense.")

Maybe Weber can pull a Frank Haith. In his first season at Missouri last year, Haith met his new team halfway stylistically, playing a tempo that was markedly faster than what he'd been comfortable with at Miami but also introducing more dribble-penetration while doing away with the pressing style of defense that Mike Anderson had featured in Columbia. This blend of old and new at Missouri worked better that anyone had expected -- at least until the Tigers ran across Norfolk State.

One task sure to appear on Weber's agenda will be improving K-State's field goal defense and defensive rebounding. Although the Wildcats' overall defense last season was excellent, that success was achieved in large part because Big 12 opponents turned the ball over on 24 percent of their possessions. On possessions where the opponent did not give the ball away -- what I call an "effective possession" -- the Wildcats allowed 1.28 points per trip in conference play. That number was right at the league average, meaning an average number of opponent turnovers would have made this defense look a lot different. Weber is likely well aware of these numbers and will tweak accordingly. He's fortunate to be tweaking with a group of veterans.

This marks the second consecutive time that a new coach at Kansas State has been given an unusually good -- if not outstanding -- chance at success in his first season. When Martin was in his first season at the helm of the Wildcats in 2007-08, he had a player by the name of Michael Beasley who made the coach's X's and O's a good deal more effective on offense. Weber doesn't have a Beasley, but he does have a flock of proven performers returning from a team that went 10-8 in the Big 12.

Assuming the coach and his players are on the same page, Kansas State has all the ingredients for a trip to the Sweet 16.

John Gasaway covers college hoops for ESPN Insider. First covering college basketball in 2004, he has written for Basketball Prospectus since its inception in 2007, and his writing has appeared in The New York Times. You can find his ESPN archives here and follow him on Twitter here.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2012, 01:12:06 PM »
Shouldn't the concern be playing in Wichita rather than just playing against WSU?  I could care less about WSU, but think that making ourselves known in Wichita would be a good thing for recruiting, no?  Not that KS has a bunch of recruiting hotbeds, but I would say Wichita is one of the better ones in the state, no?  Could Beasley playing in front of Perry Ellis changed a thing or two? 

Overall, not a big deal and I'm definatley not butthurt over it, I just see some value with playing in Wichita no matter who it is.  I liked the WV game being there, I hope we can find a way to have a game there every year.  Would be cool to play South Carolina or Illinois there but I know neither would happen.

I think K-State should play in Wichita, but I don't think it would have any substantive effect on recruiting, same with the KC games.

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2012, 01:20:26 PM »
Thanks MIR

Offline pissclams

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2012, 01:24:22 PM »
well you can definitely tell its the off season. who honestly gives a eff about this?

posters of substance

My goodness, speaking of butthurt.  Go find your bottle, or your teddy bear or get your diaper changed.  Whatever the source of your infant like whining is, resolve it.

"infant like whining" substantially sums up this stupid little thread you started.  so, congrats to you for that, dr. substance. 

of course you'll violently disagree, but everyone else here can see it.  we know.

and :lol: at _FAN completely clown suiting you.  my guess is that the deep dive you did on oscar's scheduling at Illinois, on your way to this substantive post, would have covered all of _FAN's points. so why did you leave them out of your OP??  only you know but i'm sure there was a good reason.

Pretty sure I said that _fan had a very good point about Illinois' schedule.  If the thread is so stupid, stop posting in it.  Go start a thread about pumpkin bongs or something.

low substance post.
mods, please subtract 10 substance points from mir's account pls.


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Offline Trim

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2012, 01:51:23 PM »
Quote
pumpkin bongs

 :thumbs:

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: oscar Weber already realizes that his program is fragile
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2012, 01:55:58 PM »
Gasaway makes a lot of great points, but some questionable ones. I made a blog post (http://goEMAW.com/blog/?p=1786) during the season that one of the strengths (if not THE strength) of Frank's defenses was forcing TOs (that weren't steals) from opponents. I don't think his "effective possession" point was a good one. Frank's defenses were always very good at limiting those effective possessions. Sure, opponents often scored "easily" on those possessions (see back door cut talking point), but at the cost of essentially throwing the ball into the seats much more than they normally would.

Also, while I'll concede that oscar's teams weren't great at forcing TOs, its inaccurate to say he hasn't had good offensive rebounding teams. In fact, most of his better teams at Illinois were also solid at oboarding. Not as good at Frank's, but several were in the Top 60 nationally at oboarding. Also, oscar's good defensive teams have been very good at forcing poor eFG% from opponents, much better than Frank's. And this point pretty much negates his silly point about forced TOs and "effective possessions". 

JMHO.