Hiring Process Discussion with CC

[Rage Against the McKee]

He had just been fired from Illinois. I don't see how we can't get him at a discount and give him incentives that would get him back to the going rate and above if he was able to win consistently. Did Currie even try or did oscar tell him GTFO unless you give me the going rate?

I wasn't in contract talks, so don't know. Contract has standard performance bonuses. If he wins, he gets $$. And you need to remember that contracts are a message -- if you roll BW out there at $900K, what message does that send to a) BW b) fans c) future coaching candidates? That this guy is no good or that K-State is cheap? Neither is a message you can send, even if it's true. That's just part of the game. Everybody plays it.

What message does it send when you hire someone that got fired from Illinois?

Who is to say Theus was interested? Or that Antigua was interested?

Who's job is it to MAKE Theus and Antigua interested?

Not defending BW. hiring someone that got fired is black mark, for sure. If this all happens last year, if Frank leaves for Miami and we hire current UI coach oscar Weber, I'd guess there would be a lot less anger. Major difference is that he got canned. Looks bad, no doubt.

And AD's don't usually MAKE people get interested in your job, that isn't how it works. You can follow up several times, sweeten deals, but if a guy says No you have to respect that. You never know when paths cross again. Athletics is a very incestual family -- once you're in it, you just kinda keep pin balling around. So these guys always have one eye on the future.

If what you said earlier is true, this discussion is completely irrelevant regarding Antigua, who wasn't even considered due to our AD's relatively arbitrary requirements.

I know he interviewed current D1 assistants. He also interviewed mid major HC. His takeaway was that he thought someone with HC experience could step in and win right away with no learning curve. You can disagree with result, but I don't think process was an issue. If process brought about a hire you liked, you'd be saying how awesome the process was.

I'm guessing this means he interviewed Henson, Jank, Underwood, and Weber.

[SwiftCat]

Thanks for everything you do CC. While I don't agree with everything you say, you are a huge asset to have. You are appreciated here.

[SuperG]

John Currie Thinks You're Stupid™.

yup.

[SkinnyBenny]

CC, don't act like Currie didn't bring this reaction on himself.  I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on the Jamar situation.  I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and believe that the struggles with Martin were more Martin than Currie.  I was willing to believe that Martin wanted out no matter what and there was nothing Currie could do about it.  But that first PC coupled with the FOIA denials were more than I could take.  If you're gonna get up there and field questions at least have your lies straight. "We found it on the...uh...on the floor...er in the...in the trash...yeah it was in the trash."  Are you rough ridin' kidding me!?  How can you not be ready for that question?  I don't even care he lies to me, just don't make it so obvious.  He might as well have just said "You're all so rough ridin' stupid and inconsequential that I don't even have to come up with a good story.  Here...it was on the floor.  NO WAIT!  The trash...yeah...it was in the trash."

Then he hired a guy that just got fired.  A guy that was so far down on the acceptable list of hires that goEMAW wasn't even scared of him.  I hate that you marginalize this reaction by pretending like it's about Gottlieb.  It's not about Gottlieb at all.  It's about anybody but BW.  Hell, we were all scared of Underwood, but there's not a person on here that wouldn't take Underwood over BW.

So he spit in our face and then shoved a turd sandwich down our throats.

Maybe BW will turn out to be a good coach.   Maybe IU was a shitty situation and a bad fit.  Maybe he's perfect for K-State.  I don't see it, but I've been wrong before. I, for one, am willing to give him that chance. But I won't settle for a SLTH.  I won't settle for mediocrity.  For me, Martin's success represents the bottom of what I'm willing to accept.  He proved it could be done at KSU and I won't settle for anything less, and I hope nobody else does either. But no matter how much success BW has, it won't excuse the way Currie handled the Jamar/Frank situation and how he's treated the fans like we're just stepping stones on his path to a better job.  That needs to change now.

This was rough ridin' beautiful and completely correct. 

[star seed 7]

CC, don't act like Currie didn't bring this reaction on himself.  I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on the Jamar situation.  I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and believe that the struggles with Martin were more Martin than Currie.  I was willing to believe that Martin wanted out no matter what and there was nothing Currie could do about it.  But that first PC coupled with the FOIA denials were more than I could take.  If you're gonna get up there and field questions at least have your lies straight. "We found it on the...uh...on the floor...er in the...in the trash...yeah it was in the trash."  Are you rough ridin' kidding me!?  How can you not be ready for that question?  I don't even care he lies to me, just don't make it so obvious.  He might as well have just said "You're all so rough ridin' stupid and inconsequential that I don't even have to come up with a good story.  Here...it was on the floor.  NO WAIT!  The trash...yeah...it was in the trash."

Then he hired a guy that just got fired.  A guy that was so far down on the acceptable list of hires that goEMAW wasn't even scared of him.  I hate that you marginalize this reaction by pretending like it's about Gottlieb.  It's not about Gottlieb at all.  It's about anybody but BW.  Hell, we were all scared of Underwood, but there's not a person on here that wouldn't take Underwood over BW.

So he spit in our face and then shoved a turd sandwich down our throats.

Maybe BW will turn out to be a good coach.   Maybe IU was a shitty situation and a bad fit.  Maybe he's perfect for K-State.  I don't see it, but I've been wrong before. I, for one, am willing to give him that chance. But I won't settle for a SLTH.  I won't settle for mediocrity.  For me, Martin's success represents the bottom of what I'm willing to accept.  He proved it could be done at KSU and I won't settle for anything less, and I hope nobody else does either. But no matter how much success BW has, it won't excuse the way Currie handled the Jamar/Frank situation and how he's treated the fans like we're just stepping stones on his path to a better job.  That needs to change now.

This was rough ridin' beautiful and completely correct.

you should e-mail that to him.

[Rage Against the McKee]

CC, don't act like Currie didn't bring this reaction on himself.  I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on the Jamar situation.  I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and believe that the struggles with Martin were more Martin than Currie.  I was willing to believe that Martin wanted out no matter what and there was nothing Currie could do about it.  But that first PC coupled with the FOIA denials were more than I could take.  If you're gonna get up there and field questions at least have your lies straight. "We found it on the...uh...on the floor...er in the...in the trash...yeah it was in the trash."  Are you rough ridin' kidding me!?  How can you not be ready for that question?  I don't even care he lies to me, just don't make it so obvious.  He might as well have just said "You're all so rough ridin' stupid and inconsequential that I don't even have to come up with a good story.  Here...it was on the floor.  NO WAIT!  The trash...yeah...it was in the trash."

Then he hired a guy that just got fired.  A guy that was so far down on the acceptable list of hires that goEMAW wasn't even scared of him.  I hate that you marginalize this reaction by pretending like it's about Gottlieb.  It's not about Gottlieb at all.  It's about anybody but BW.  Hell, we were all scared of Underwood, but there's not a person on here that wouldn't take Underwood over BW.

So he spit in our face and then shoved a turd sandwich down our throats.

Maybe BW will turn out to be a good coach.   Maybe IU was a shitty situation and a bad fit.  Maybe he's perfect for K-State.  I don't see it, but I've been wrong before. I, for one, am willing to give him that chance. But I won't settle for a SLTH.  I won't settle for mediocrity.  For me, Martin's success represents the bottom of what I'm willing to accept.  He proved it could be done at KSU and I won't settle for anything less, and I hope nobody else does either. But no matter how much success BW has, it won't excuse the way Currie handled the Jamar/Frank situation and how he's treated the fans like we're just stepping stones on his path to a better job.  That needs to change now.

This was rough ridin' beautiful and completely correct.

The story of how the receipt was found wasn't what amazed me. I was amazed that he was stupid enough to tell everyone that he was given a receipt in the first place and not expect questions about where the receipt came from. He never should have mentioned a receipt. He should have immediately realized what a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) he was when he mentioned it, and when he was asked questions, he should have said "I don't know how it was found. Somebody just turned it into my office." That would have been the end of it.

[naturalselection]

it is not possible to support kstate athletics without supporting currie.  they are one and the same, the only rational response possible to someone who loves kstate basketball is to hope currie and weber fail as quickly and spectacularly as possible.  let them die, kstate will still be here when they are gone.

This is virtually verbatim what my father expressed to me this evening as his position.  The man doesn't literally tuck his t-shirt into his pants, but is frequently seen in sweater vests.  This was in response to my admitting that as much as I think Weber will fail and Currie should be fired, I can't bring myself to actually hope players leave.  As pessimistic as I might be right now, I still selfishly want one more season in the sun before the program goes under. 

[ew2x4]

This thread just pisses my off even more. Frank leaving, whatever. I was super pissed, but if it was a bad situation that wasnt going to get better, whatever. But between his lying and his horrible horrible hire, with zero appreciation for this university, I'm done with him. Even if he doesn't really think he's an AD of a university full of morons and he's just biding his time to move on to a job he actually cares about, he should really stop acting like it because it's pissing us all off.

Your avi always makes me think everything you say is coming from a happy and smiling place, pumped about live. Even when it's not.

Sorry. Old vestage from fb season. I have the same passion. Just wish I could put a torch in his hand. I've changed it.

[kougar24]

This thread just pisses my off even more. Frank leaving, whatever. I was super pissed, but if it was a bad situation that wasnt going to get better, whatever. But between his lying and his horrible horrible hire, with zero appreciation for this university, I'm done with him. Even if he doesn't really think he's an AD of a university full of morons and he's just biding his time to move on to a job he actually cares about, he should really stop acting like it because it's pissing us all off.

Your avi always makes me think everything you say is coming from a happy and smiling place, pumped about live. Even when it's not.

Just wish I could put a torch in his hand.

Hmmm...

[naturalselection]

And three days... are you joking? Who would have thought any different between 3 days and 5 days or 7 days? Don't say it's because of the players... for fucks sake. From what we've heard, they were just happy Frank was gone. There's too much about this hire to just turn a blind eye to. Bottom line, John Currie either got played and is partially incompetent at his job or John Currie Thinks You're Stupid™.

So much of this hire just makes no sense on the face of it.  It's impossible to explain logically.  We're supposed to believe we had to get rid of Frank Martin because he was about to destroy everything he had helped build.  But we "settled" on a coach who was just fired for destroying a program with better built in recruiting advantages.  We had to settle on this coach because he has experience as a head coach (for whatever arbitrary reason that is deemed to be THE overriding factor), and he was the best coach we could attract with head coaching experience.  A series of moves that has completely divided and in many cases alienated our fan base.  At the end of the day we are supposed to believe that this is better then the worst case scenario of letting the very popular head coach flame out spectacularly on his own, and then making the change?  Like there wouldn't be a oscar Weber on the market next season, with a fan base unified in the understanding that a change HAD to be made? 

[SleepFighter]

And three days... are you joking? Who would have thought any different between 3 days and 5 days or 7 days? Don't say it's because of the players... for fucks sake. From what we've heard, they were just happy Frank was gone. There's too much about this hire to just turn a blind eye to. Bottom line, John Currie either got played and is partially incompetent at his job or John Currie Thinks You're Stupid™.

So much of this hire just makes no sense on the face of it.  It's impossible to explain logically.  We're supposed to believe we had to get rid of Frank Martin because he was about to destroy everything he had helped build.  But we "settled" on a coach who was just fired for destroying a program with better built in recruiting advantages.  We had to settle on this coach because he has experience as a head coach (for whatever arbitrary reason that is deemed to be THE overriding factor), and he was the best coach we could attract with head coaching experience.  A series of moves that has completely divided and in many cases alienated our fan base.  At the end of the day we are supposed to believe that this is better then the worst case scenario of letting the very popular head coach flame out spectacularly on his own, and then making the change?  Like there wouldn't be a oscar Weber on the market next season, with a fan base unified in the understanding that a change HAD to be made?

Indeed. Six people transferring is a Frank Martin story. Losing our best coach in 25 years to a school that hasn't won a tournament game in 38 years, and hiring a guy that just got fired is a Kansas State story.

[Trim]

If Weber was the best guy that fit into JC's parameters (HC Experience), then he needed to change his parameters. 

"No predetermined parameters."

[naturalselection]

If Weber was the best guy that fit into JC's parameters (HC Experience), then he needed to change his parameters. 

"No predetermined parameters."

Can someone organize a John Currie lies master thread?  It's hard to keep up with all of them.  You can leave out the understandable lies (like "Frank Martin and I had a good working relationship), just the "These rubes will believe anything I say" lies. 

[Cire]

good relationship with frank

receipt in trash

receipt on floor

no parameters

this is where frank martin's office will be

[puniraptor]

this is where frank martin's office will be

 

[naturalselection]

good relationship with frank

receipt in trash

receipt on floor

no parameters

this is where frank martin's office will be

Not even scratching the surface here.

"I worked really, really hard to find somebody that would tell me that oscar Weber cannot get it done, or that oscar Weber is not a good coach, or oscar Weber has got a problem, or some other thing.  To be honest, the further I dug, the better, and better it got.  I simply could not find anything."

"this has been a process though, that starts with the welfare and well-being of our student athletes, and our staff....For our student athletes, I do feel a tremendous responsibility for the fact that as they lay in bed at night or get ready to go to class"

"Late Friday night, we made the decision that we had the opportunity to visit with Coach Weber.  I flew on Wednesday and got to Chicago then met with Coach Weber that afternoon.  I made a lot more phone calls and all of that kind of stuff.  Then on Thursday I went to New Orleans and spent the last couple of days there and visited with a number of different candidates.  I continued the constant opportunity to vet and listen, and hear."

Are a few of the ones that really pissed me off.  I can deal with being lied to as a fan because I understand the necessity of it at times.  What I can't stand is being lied to about crap that there is no reason to lie about.  THAT makes me question even more if anything I am told is true. 

[puniraptor]

http://themercury.com/News/article.aspx?articleId=f1cde4ebe0e44c24bb3e187efd7df3a9

Really guys!??! More attacks on Kstate property?!? Weber Hall, I appreciate the symbolism but this is getting out of hand!

[pissclams]

bleach and ammonia, saul's favorite combo

[fr@ck me]

CC is right about the billboards and banners not being the way to go, it will just make us look bad.  And he is probably right about the donations, at least if he means donations from people from this board.  The only real way to fight Currie is getting people like the Vaniers and Sherwoods of the world on our side.  They can lose a bunch of people who donate the minimum to get their tickets, but they can't lose the ones who donate millions to projects.  The war will be won with back room deals.  The world of college athletics is much like politics, the real work is done behind the scenes.

Best case scenario is Weber turns out to be a good hire, Currie leaves on his own in 2-3 years and Weber follows suit because the new AD wants "his guy" (sound familiar)
Second best scenario is Weber does good and Currie leaves after preasure and says he just wants a new challenge
Worst case scenario is we have to fire Currie one year, hire a new AD and then fire Weber the next year.  We can't fire them at the same time because any good coach will want to know the AD.

[captaincrap]

I not trying to convince you guys to like BW or even JC. I've said repeatedly that I'm not defending the hire. But I do think you guys have gone a little overboard in your frustration, and it's clouding your judgment on many other things.

I reached my breaking point with the West Side thread, and I apologize if I was condescending or curt. I enjoy talking with you guys, although I have not enjoyed reading this board the last few days because it honestly made me question whether many of you wanted what's best for K-State or simply to make John Currie's life miserable (and no, I don't think they are the same).

Look, the reality of it is that most of the general public will not find out the details of certain events, namely the Jamar situation and Frank's activities over the last 1.5-2 years. With Jamar, a lot of that is coming from FERPA. That is the main reason for the FOIA refusals, because discussion of Jamar's financial situation and personal details falls under FERPA. With Frank, I don't think K-State gains anything publicly by detailing everything. It could harm everyone involved. So I think they are just going to keep quiet, wish him well, and move on. Unfortunately, Frank was digging a grave that no AD was going to be able to dig him out of. Trust me, it's best for both sides.

The consequence of that is you guys are left to speculate, read reports from "sources" that are probably only telling one side of the story, and then have to form opinions on incomplete information. That sucks, no question. And it's not fair to you guys, no question.

I do think JC has K-State's long term best interest at heart. His method is unique to him, I will say that. And fans at every school have every right to question new hires. I don't see any evidence that he wants bball to be average or SLTHy. Dude wants to win. I've seen it. Again, not defending BW -- I hear everything you're saying about the message it sends to hire a fired coach. I get it. It looks bad. I don't think it is a fireable offense, unless the program goes down the toilet. But you can't fire the guy before BW coaches a game, you just can't.

Like him or not, K-State Athletics is as successful right now on and off the court as it has ever been, across the board. Some of you seem to have lost sight of that in your hatred of this hire.

And I disagree with you, I believe it is possible to support K-State without supporting certain individuals. I supported K-State when Bob Krause was here driving things into the ground, for gods sake.

Last thing -- I am not going to stop you from being upset, and I'm not trying. I do think actively hurting K-State is taking it too far. That's me. JC and KS have seen the negative reactions, they get it that some folks aren't happy. That is why I said a calm, thoughtful email might get more traction than an emotional outburst -- it would stand out. Would it work? Who knows. But then you'd have a place to go if things with oscar don't work out.

What I said last week still stands: my best advice is to wait a little bit, let some things happen. It might make you feel a little better.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[puniraptor]

 

Thanks, CC. Question: Do your bosses (assuming you aren't KS or JC) know you post here?

[Barry McCockner]

CC:

How do you reconcile Currie's repeated vows of transparency with the editing of PC transcripts to suit him?

How do you reconcile his demands of honesty from his coaches with the obvious lies that have been pointed out here?

How can you endure a guy droning on and on about how NO MATTER HOW FAR HE DUG he couldn't find A SINGLE NEGATIVE THING ABOUT oscar WEBER, when anyone who can do a google search can find thousands of references to his shortcomings?

Giving all that, how can you expect us to believe that he cares about winning at K-State?  If he cared about winning at K-State beyond a 2 year window, he would not have hired oscar Webber, unless he is incompetent.  I don't think he's incompetent.

[captaincrap]

CC:

How do you reconcile Currie's repeated vows of transparency with the editing of PC transcripts to suit him?

How do you reconcile his demands of honesty from his coaches with the obvious lies that have been pointed out here?

How can you endure a guy droning on and on about how NO MATTER HOW FAR HE DUG he couldn't find A SINGLE NEGATIVE THING ABOUT oscar WEBER, when anyone who can do a google search can find thousands of references to his shortcomings?

Giving all that, how can you expect us to believe that he cares about winning at K-State?  If he cared about winning at K-State beyond a 2 year window, he would not have hired oscar Webber, unless he is incompetent.  I don't think he's incompetent.

Don't know what you're referring to with the edited PC 

The single negative thing comment -- I took that to be the typical fluff you say at a hiring PC. Similar stuff was said by Tim when Frank was hired. It's part of the game. Personally, most of the glowing positive stuff goes in one ear and out the other because it's just flowery talk that anyone would say. Results are what I care about,and BW will have a chance to prove JC right or wrong.

[Dr Rick Daris]

i don't think all the negative frank stuff over the past year happens and i think he's still coaching here if he would've had a different boss over the past three years. just my opinion. who knows.

can someone get all of our coaches to take a briggs-meyer personality test and then put it in chart form with some kind of squib notes attached to each coach so currie can have a realistic shot of figuring out how to get along with and be supportive of the coaches who are running our individual athletic programs. not kidding.

[deputy dawg]

And you downplay a TV analyst, but he sold Manhattan and Kansas State better than Weber. He articulated his style of play better. He had a more developed plan to build a staff. But above all he would have given KSU a chance to build upon the momentum that Frank created. Currie didn't even give him a chance. Why couldn't we wait a day and just talk to Gottlieb? Would Weber have ran to CoC? I mean seriously how small-time is this administration.

The fact is that if you hire Gottlieb, you'll get some laughs on phog.net and a few old writers, but you will also get a ton of positive press for thinking outside the box at a place where you cannot do great things in a conventional manner. And I GUARANTEE you aren't getting national press about Manhattan being a shithole and Currie being a boob because Gottlieb would shut that down before anyone got the chance to say it.

   Denied
What you heard was Gottlieb selling himself for the position, not a "more developed plan to build a staff".  Currie avoided the Nebraska-like debacle of publicly discussing their hiring targets, so you did not hear Currie's or Weber's plan for building a staff.  You may agree or disagree with the AD/coach's staffing plans, but Gottlieb did not articulate a workable plan to coach and develop staff.