Hiring Process Discussion with CC

[EllToPay]

CC, nobody is saying Currie didn't help get the facility project on the ground.  If anything, we know it will make the "get Currie canned" campaign harder. 

I do think however that any good "salesperson" can sell two winning programs (as well as Frank and Bill) to donors for money.  Currie was all but a salesman.  If you want to give someone credit for managing the Athletic Department's money, give it to Reid Sigmon.  Reid has eyes of a hawk, and watches every single dollar that comes in and out of that foundation. 

Frank situation aside, I think everyone is frustrated how Currie handled the coaching hire.  He took one week to get one of the least desirable coaches on the market, yet for a price we were unwilling to pay Frank.  Weber's hire made the thought of Boyle being our head coach a wet-dream.  I think any one of us could have made a hire as equal or better.  Add the terrible press conference, not knowing who he would bring with him, and the likelihood of Underwood bailing is sending everyone over the edge.

Now we have national media looking down on us, throwing out the "Manhattan is hard to recruit" type excuses our direction to validate the Weber hire.  I mean how many schools have hired a head coach a month after he was fired?  Right, nobody.  This hire sucks, and so was the effort put out by Currie.

     

Goddammit, I siad I was done, but I keep getting pulled back in. Feel free to move this discussion to ball board, don't want to hijack FB threads.

Agree with you on Reid, but he is acting on directive and feedback from JC. So, you have to credit him for that as well.

Coaching search was quick, but thorough. Weber was not first choice. Know that Boyle said no. Current assistants at other schools were interviewed, but in the end JC wanted previous head coaching experience. Personally don't have any fault with conduct of search. He wanted to move fast, he wasn't doing anything else but the search.

I would not have picked BW myself, but I am willing so give it a chance. Not sure who is a better choice -- we weren't getting Mack or Cronin or people like that. You can name off assistants like Hurricane -- but who's to say that dude can recruit at a place that's not like Kentucky? JC wanted previous HC, preferably at a BCS level. It's perfectly acceptable to want that.

PC was a little rough -- but he did know who he wanted for assistants. You can't just rattle them off at a PC, especially if some of them are still on the job elsewhere. It's called discretion. Staff is going to come together quickly this week, and some good names will be on there.

Listen, I am not saying you can't be upset. But maybe turn the rage dial down to single digits before one of you sets a bomb off in the training facility as a "show of support for Frank". You're never going to accomplish your goal if people see you as fanatical about it. And maybe, just maybe, wait to see what the staff is, what recruits gets signed, etc before slitting wrists. 

good stuff, CC. But know that  you won't fully get this board off Frank's nuts if there aren't some nuggets of what Frank was doing to trash the program.

[captaincrap]

i love the fball expansion and the practice facility. they are great achievements and there a lot of aspects of john curries job that i personally think he is really good at. i couldn't be more excited for the bsfs expansions.

i'm also very sad and upset because i'm pretty sure that having a winning basketball team is not on our athletic directors top 20 list of things he wants for the university and it shouldn't be this way.

it's also not as much about gottleib as you are portraying it. it really isn't. not even close. trust me. it just absolutely isn't.

most people (not just people here but kansas state fans in general) wish frank was still the head coach. most here think that frank would still be our head coach if john currie was not appointed as AD three years ago. now would we have the shiny bball practice facility or major upgrade to bsfs? i don't know. pretty sure we'd still have frank though. that's what half of this is about, i think.

the other half is that we really just went out and hired a coach that was given a basketball team full of future nba talent at a top25 basketball school, a school that has never fired a coach before for performance based issues and in three years our new coach managed to give them their worst six years in school history. john was reaching out to weber before frank was even officially gone for crying out loud. why? by all accounts he made no effort. none at all to retain frank. we effectively chased off frank to hire a coach that the university of illinois disliked so much that they paid almost 4 million to him so that he would STOP coaching them. it was not working at illinois and it was not going to work there so they sucked it up, paid the money and moved on. they are not and were not content with being a "bubble" team forever and should be commended for their actions.

there is no reason to think it will work here, none. i also personally don't need to take a wait and see approach to know this. i just don't. i like illinois basketball and i have seen enough over the past five years. i don't need to see five more. i also personally don't feel like i need to support mediocrity even at kstate when i also happen to feel like mediocrity was the goal and not the end result.

Currie didn't chase off Frank. He did that himself. I would argue Currie was placed in a no win situation with Frank -- would have been actually a tougher PR spot if Frank had stayed because of what would have happened. So if you're blaming Currie for that one, you are misled.

Not saying you have to love the hire at all. But actively trying to harm K-State because of it seems irrational to me.

[captaincrap]

Okay, so the coaching search may have been above board even though it didn't come off that way. I'll acknowledge the possibility despite my skepticism. But why are we paying him more than he made at Illinois? Why are we paying him more than Frank made here? It doesn't make sense.

Going rate for coaches. We are paying him exactly what Frank was set to make this year. Probably would have been similar for any sitting head coach we would have hired.

[0.42]

He had just been fired from Illinois. I don't see how we can't get him at a discount and give him incentives that would get him back to the going rate and above if he was able to win consistently. Did Currie even try or did oscar tell him GTFO unless you give me the going rate?

[wetwillie]

God bless you CC, we are really hurting here and I think you understand why, I hope you will stick around. Thanks for what you have contributed even if you really decide not to.

[captaincrap]

If Currie had given us some answers instead of just acting as if dissent towards the Weber hire doesn't exist, we wouldn't be in the position that we're in today.

It makes zero sense for Currie to get up in front of the PC and say "I know this guys pisses you off, but here he is!". He was aware of it, and acknowledged it in interviews later. He gave plenty of answers if you were listening.

[michigancat]

I would not have picked BW myself, but I am willing so give it a chance. Not sure who is a better choice -- we weren't getting Mack or Cronin or people like that. You can name off assistants like Hurricane -- but who's to say that dude can recruit at a place that's not like Kentucky?

Reggie Theus would have been a far better choice. He had head coaching experience and interviewed for the Penn State job, I believe.  He recruited multiple top 100 guys to NMSU. He took over a program that won 6 games the year before he arrived and won 25 and went to the NCAA tourney in his second year.

re: Hurricane and other assistants - good recruiters are good recruiters. Antigua landed great recruits at Pitt and at Memphis, and Kentucky is dominating all the blue bloods in recruiting, not just the K-States of the world. I do not see how you can say Currie conducted a thorough search when he eliminated all assistants from the best programs.

JC wanted previous HC, preferably at a BCS level. It's perfectly acceptable to want that.

It's acceptable to want that, but it's not reasonable to expect that at KSU and end up with a guy that hadn't been fired for poor performance. I think it's rather foolish to limit yourself so much at a place like K-State.

[DQ12]

If Weber was the best guy that fit into JC's parameters (HC Experience), then he needed to change his parameters. 

[captaincrap]

He had just been fired from Illinois. I don't see how we can't get him at a discount and give him incentives that would get him back to the going rate and above if he was able to win consistently. Did Currie even try or did oscar tell him GTFO unless you give me the going rate?

I wasn't in contract talks, so don't know. Contract has standard performance bonuses. If he wins, he gets $$. And you need to remember that contracts are a message -- if you roll BW out there at $900K, what message does that send to a) BW b) fans c) future coaching candidates? That this guy is no good or that K-State is cheap? Neither is a message you can send, even if it's true. That's just part of the game. Everybody plays it.

["storm"nut]

Answer me this CC, please. Was Frank breaking NCAA rules, or trying too and Currie wanted no part in it.

[SleepFighter]

I too hope you stay CC, but what it comes down to is that I don't think that there could have been a worse hire than Weber from a PR point of view.

What it comes down to is that I very strongly disagree with the posistion that high-major head coaching experience is something that should be prioritized for our head coaching job.  In fact, given the kind of guys that we could get that have that experience, it is a strong negative, as it probably means that they failed at their previous job.

[captaincrap]

I would not have picked BW myself, but I am willing so give it a chance. Not sure who is a better choice -- we weren't getting Mack or Cronin or people like that. You can name off assistants like Hurricane -- but who's to say that dude can recruit at a place that's not like Kentucky?

Reggie Theus would have been a far better choice. He had head coaching experience and interviewed for the Penn State job, I believe.  He recruited multiple top 100 guys to NMSU. He took over a program that won 6 games the year before he arrived and won 25 and went to the NCAA tourney in his second year.

re: Hurricane and other assistants - good recruiters are good recruiters. Antigua landed great recruits at Pitt and at Memphis, and Kentucky is dominating all the blue bloods in recruiting, not just the K-States of the world. I do not see how you can say Currie conducted a thorough search when he eliminated all assistants from the best programs.

JC wanted previous HC, preferably at a BCS level. It's perfectly acceptable to want that.

It's acceptable to want that, but it's not reasonable to expect that at KSU and end up with a guy that hadn't been fired for poor performance. I think it's rather foolish to limit yourself so much at a place like K-State.

Who is to say Theus was interested? Or that Antigua was interested?

[captaincrap]

I too hope you stay CC, but what it comes down to is that I don't think that there could have been a worse hire than Weber from a PR point of view.

What it comes down to is that I very strongly disagree with the posistion that high-major head coaching experience is something that should be prioritized for our head coaching job.  In fact, given the kind of guys that we could get that have that experience, it is a strong negative, as it probably means that they failed at their previous job.

I am not defending BW, don't get me wrong. I'm trying to get some of you to calm down a bit, think through things.

[DQ12]

Who is to say Theus was interested? Or that Antigua was interested?

Not John Currie, by your own admission.

[michigancat]

He had just been fired from Illinois. I don't see how we can't get him at a discount and give him incentives that would get him back to the going rate and above if he was able to win consistently. Did Currie even try or did oscar tell him GTFO unless you give me the going rate?

I wasn't in contract talks, so don't know. Contract has standard performance bonuses. If he wins, he gets $$. And you need to remember that contracts are a message -- if you roll BW out there at $900K, what message does that send to a) BW b) fans c) future coaching candidates? That this guy is no good or that K-State is cheap? Neither is a message you can send, even if it's true. That's just part of the game. Everybody plays it.

What message does it send when you hire someone that got fired from Illinois?

Who is to say Theus was interested? Or that Antigua was interested?

Who's job is it to MAKE Theus and Antigua interested? If Antigua ends up at Duquesne and wasn't interested in us, what does that say about the KSU reputation?

[0.42]

If Currie had given us some answers instead of just acting as if dissent towards the Weber hire doesn't exist, we wouldn't be in the position that we're in today.

It makes zero sense for Currie to get up in front of the PC and say "I know this guys pisses you off, but here he is!". He was aware of it, and acknowledged it in interviews later. He gave plenty of answers if you were listening.

Where are these interviews? I'd be interested to read them.

And you're right about the press conference, but he didn't come off as having a lot of answers during the PC. He just gave some vague answer about flying off to Dallas and sitting in a hotel room. He didn't say how many people were interviewed (I wouldn't expect him to say who). And everyone in the state knows that he's lying through his teeth when he says that he and Frank had a good working relationship. If Frank really had become psychotic to the point where he was going to torpedo the program, then make some sort of hint about that. "The program needed to go in another direction" or some such stuff. I know that some coaches might perceive that as throwing a successful coach under the bus, but fans and people associated with the program will always appreciate the truth more than platitudes and lies about how things were hunky-dory and the head coach and his family just wanted to try something else or whatever. It comes off as him trying to make us just accept the party line without question, and that's patronizing and insulting. K-State fans have been treated that way for years, and some realize that and don't like it. Does Currie not know this?

He had just been fired from Illinois. I don't see how we can't get him at a discount and give him incentives that would get him back to the going rate and above if he was able to win consistently. Did Currie even try or did oscar tell him GTFO unless you give me the going rate?

I wasn't in contract talks, so don't know. Contract has standard performance bonuses. If he wins, he gets $$. And you need to remember that contracts are a message -- if you roll BW out there at $900K, what message does that send to a) BW b) fans c) future coaching candidates? That this guy is no good or that K-State is cheap? Neither is a message you can send, even if it's true. That's just part of the game. Everybody plays it.

I wouldn't expect 9k, but something like 1.2 as a starting rate seems reasonable. A small step down with a chance to redeem himself and win/earn big again via large incentives. You make good points, but I feel like overpaying Weber looks worse.

[captaincrap]

He had just been fired from Illinois. I don't see how we can't get him at a discount and give him incentives that would get him back to the going rate and above if he was able to win consistently. Did Currie even try or did oscar tell him GTFO unless you give me the going rate?

I wasn't in contract talks, so don't know. Contract has standard performance bonuses. If he wins, he gets $$. And you need to remember that contracts are a message -- if you roll BW out there at $900K, what message does that send to a) BW b) fans c) future coaching candidates? That this guy is no good or that K-State is cheap? Neither is a message you can send, even if it's true. That's just part of the game. Everybody plays it.

What message does it send when you hire someone that got fired from Illinois?

Who is to say Theus was interested? Or that Antigua was interested?

Who's job is it to MAKE Theus and Antigua interested?

Not defending BW. hiring someone that got fired is black mark, for sure. If this all happens last year, if Frank leaves for Miami and we hire current UI coach oscar Weber, I'd guess there would be a lot less anger. Major difference is that he got canned. Looks bad, no doubt.

And AD's don't usually MAKE people get interested in your job, that isn't how it works. You can follow up several times, sweeten deals, but if a guy says No you have to respect that. You never know when paths cross again. Athletics is a very incestual family -- once you're in it, you just kinda keep pin balling around. So these guys always have one eye on the future.

[wabash909]

Currie didn't chase off Frank. He did that himself. I would argue Currie was placed in a no win situation with Frank -- would have been actually a tougher PR spot if Frank had stayed because of what would have happened. So if you're blaming Currie for that one, you are misled.

Right.

I can only imagine the public relations nightmare Currie would have had on his hands had Frank Martin remained our coach.

I just love these vague statements after the fact.

[WildcatNkilt]

He had just been fired from Illinois. I don't see how we can't get him at a discount and give him incentives that would get him back to the going rate and above if he was able to win consistently. Did Currie even try or did oscar tell him GTFO unless you give me the going rate?

I wasn't in contract talks, so don't know. Contract has standard performance bonuses. If he wins, he gets $$. And you need to remember that contracts are a message -- if you roll BW out there at $900K, what message does that send to a) BW b) fans c) future coaching candidates? That this guy is no good or that K-State is cheap? Neither is a message you can send, even if it's true. That's just part of the game. Everybody plays it.

What message does it send when you hire someone that got fired from Illinois?

Who is to say Theus was interested? Or that Antigua was interested?

Who's job is it to MAKE Theus and Antigua interested?

Not defending BW. hiring someone that got fired is black mark, for sure. If this all happens last year, if Frank leaves for Miami and we hire current UI coach oscar Weber, I'd guess there would be a lot less anger. Major difference is that he got canned. Looks bad, no doubt.

And AD's don't usually MAKE people get interested in your job, that isn't how it works. You can follow up several times, sweeten deals, but if a guy says No you have to respect that. You never know when paths cross again. Athletics is a very incestual family -- once you're in it, you just kinda keep pin balling around. So these guys always have one eye on the future.

There are however certain selling points coaches may not be aware of (returning players, $18 mill facility, etc).  This can spark interest a ton.  Coming to a program with returning players is much or palatable than starting with a bunch of fresh/soph.

[captaincrap]

If Currie had given us some answers instead of just acting as if dissent towards the Weber hire doesn't exist, we wouldn't be in the position that we're in today.

It makes zero sense for Currie to get up in front of the PC and say "I know this guys pisses you off, but here he is!". He was aware of it, and acknowledged it in interviews later. He gave plenty of answers if you were listening.

Where are these interviews? I'd be interested to read them.

And you're right about the press conference, but he didn't come off as having a lot of answers during the PC. He just gave some vague answer about flying off to Dallas and sitting in a hotel room. He didn't say how many people were interviewed (I wouldn't expect him to say who). And everyone in the state knows that he's lying through his teeth when he says that he and Frank had a good working relationship. If Frank really had become psychotic to the point where he was going to torpedo the program, then make some sort of hint about that. "The program needed to go in another direction" or some such stuff. I know that some coaches might perceive that as throwing a successful coach under the bus, but fans and people associated with the program will always appreciate the truth more than platitudes and lies about how things were hunky-dory and the head coach and his family just wanted to try something else or whatever. It comes off as him trying to make us just accept the party line without question, and that's patronizing and insulting. K-State fans have been treated that way for years, and some realize that and don't like it. Does Currie not know this?

He had just been fired from Illinois. I don't see how we can't get him at a discount and give him incentives that would get him back to the going rate and above if he was able to win consistently. Did Currie even try or did oscar tell him GTFO unless you give me the going rate?

I wasn't in contract talks, so don't know. Contract has standard performance bonuses. If he wins, he gets $$. And you need to remember that contracts are a message -- if you roll BW out there at $900K, what message does that send to a) BW b) fans c) future coaching candidates? That this guy is no good or that K-State is cheap? Neither is a message you can send, even if it's true. That's just part of the game. Everybody plays it.

I wouldn't expect 9k, but something like 1.2 as a starting rate seems reasonable. A small step down with a chance to redeem himself and win/earn big again via large incentives. You make good points, but I feel like overpaying Weber looks worse.

PC setting is usually not the place for details, that will come out during 1-on1s that follow it. That's also why you don't often see media asking detailed questions, because they don't want to embarrass anyone and they know they can probably get a much better answer if they wait for the 1-on-1. Again, it's all part of the game that everybody plays.

I understand what you're saying about the Frank relationship stuff, but honestly most people would prefer leadership to be mature and take the high road. Were both JC and FM overstating the friendliness? Maybe. But their working relationship is over now, now sense creating more drama. Just be nice and move on. I've got no issues there.

Don't really care about the money I guess. If he wins he'll earn it, if not, he won't be around to earn it. So pay the going rate and get started.

[DQ12]

He had just been fired from Illinois. I don't see how we can't get him at a discount and give him incentives that would get him back to the going rate and above if he was able to win consistently. Did Currie even try or did oscar tell him GTFO unless you give me the going rate?

I wasn't in contract talks, so don't know. Contract has standard performance bonuses. If he wins, he gets $$. And you need to remember that contracts are a message -- if you roll BW out there at $900K, what message does that send to a) BW b) fans c) future coaching candidates? That this guy is no good or that K-State is cheap? Neither is a message you can send, even if it's true. That's just part of the game. Everybody plays it.

What message does it send when you hire someone that got fired from Illinois?

Who is to say Theus was interested? Or that Antigua was interested?

Who's job is it to MAKE Theus and Antigua interested?

Not defending BW. hiring someone that got fired is black mark, for sure. If this all happens last year, if Frank leaves for Miami and we hire current UI coach oscar Weber, I'd guess there would be a lot less anger. Major difference is that he got canned. Looks bad, no doubt.

And AD's don't usually MAKE people get interested in your job, that isn't how it works. You can follow up several times, sweeten deals, but if a guy says No you have to respect that. You never know when paths cross again. Athletics is a very incestual family -- once you're in it, you just kinda keep pin balling around. So these guys always have one eye on the future.

If what you said earlier is true, this discussion is completely irrelevant regarding Antigua, who wasn't even considered due to our AD's relatively arbitrary requirements. 

[captaincrap]

He had just been fired from Illinois. I don't see how we can't get him at a discount and give him incentives that would get him back to the going rate and above if he was able to win consistently. Did Currie even try or did oscar tell him GTFO unless you give me the going rate?

I wasn't in contract talks, so don't know. Contract has standard performance bonuses. If he wins, he gets $$. And you need to remember that contracts are a message -- if you roll BW out there at $900K, what message does that send to a) BW b) fans c) future coaching candidates? That this guy is no good or that K-State is cheap? Neither is a message you can send, even if it's true. That's just part of the game. Everybody plays it.

What message does it send when you hire someone that got fired from Illinois?

Who is to say Theus was interested? Or that Antigua was interested?

Who's job is it to MAKE Theus and Antigua interested?

Not defending BW. hiring someone that got fired is black mark, for sure. If this all happens last year, if Frank leaves for Miami and we hire current UI coach oscar Weber, I'd guess there would be a lot less anger. Major difference is that he got canned. Looks bad, no doubt.

And AD's don't usually MAKE people get interested in your job, that isn't how it works. You can follow up several times, sweeten deals, but if a guy says No you have to respect that. You never know when paths cross again. Athletics is a very incestual family -- once you're in it, you just kinda keep pin balling around. So these guys always have one eye on the future.

There are however certain selling points coaches may not be aware of (returning players, $18 mill facility, etc).  This can spark interest a ton.  Coming to a program with returning players is much or palatable than starting with a bunch of fresh/soph.

No question. And I'm certain JC would have done that. But if they say No after that, you move on.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Kansas State is a pretty damned good job to get as your first head coaching gig. There is simply no way that Antigua told Currie no without at least interviewing for the job. Antigua may have wanted more than Currie thought he was worth, but I really doubt he asked for as much as we ended up paying Weber.

[captaincrap]

He had just been fired from Illinois. I don't see how we can't get him at a discount and give him incentives that would get him back to the going rate and above if he was able to win consistently. Did Currie even try or did oscar tell him GTFO unless you give me the going rate?

I wasn't in contract talks, so don't know. Contract has standard performance bonuses. If he wins, he gets $$. And you need to remember that contracts are a message -- if you roll BW out there at $900K, what message does that send to a) BW b) fans c) future coaching candidates? That this guy is no good or that K-State is cheap? Neither is a message you can send, even if it's true. That's just part of the game. Everybody plays it.

What message does it send when you hire someone that got fired from Illinois?

Who is to say Theus was interested? Or that Antigua was interested?

Who's job is it to MAKE Theus and Antigua interested?

Not defending BW. hiring someone that got fired is black mark, for sure. If this all happens last year, if Frank leaves for Miami and we hire current UI coach oscar Weber, I'd guess there would be a lot less anger. Major difference is that he got canned. Looks bad, no doubt.

And AD's don't usually MAKE people get interested in your job, that isn't how it works. You can follow up several times, sweeten deals, but if a guy says No you have to respect that. You never know when paths cross again. Athletics is a very incestual family -- once you're in it, you just kinda keep pin balling around. So these guys always have one eye on the future.

If what you said earlier is true, this discussion is completely irrelevant regarding Antigua, who wasn't even considered due to our AD's relatively arbitrary requirements.

I know he interviewed current D1 assistants. He also interviewed mid major HC. His takeaway was that he thought someone with HC experience could step in and win right away with no learning curve. You can disagree with result, but I don't think process was an issue. If process brought about a hire you liked, you'd be saying how awesome the process was.

[michigancat]

Not defending BW. hiring someone that got fired is black mark, for sure. If this all happens last year, if Frank leaves for Miami and we hire current UI coach oscar Weber, I'd guess there would be a lot less anger. Major difference is that he got canned. Looks bad, no doubt.

And AD's don't usually MAKE people get interested in your job, that isn't how it works. You can follow up several times, sweeten deals, but if a guy says No you have to respect that. You never know when paths cross again. Athletics is a very incestual family -- once you're in it, you just kinda keep pin balling around. So these guys always have one eye on the future.

I would not have been happy with Weber a year ago - it was still clear that he had Illinois on the downward trend, and we shouldn't ignore the last year anyway. I don't understand how athletics being incestual means that Currie has nothing to do with making the KSU job attractive to potential coaches.